I've been observing a disturbing trend over the past year in the industry. It seems as though some companies are blatantly coping other manufacturer's products. It really hit home for me this evening. It's come to my attention that another company has begun producing a nearly identical replica of the Darkside wing mounts (And this is not the first time that it has happened). It's even more pathetic when the instructions that come with this RIP OFF product use THE SAME instruction diagram as I hand drafted myself. It is one thing to innovate an existing product to make it better, but is it a clearly different when it is practically a direct copy.

It is a sad commentary on the state of the industry when certain manufacturers cannot think and innovate for themselves, but must rely on copying the "out of the box" thinking of others to craft their product line. I think that it's coming time that we as manufacturers need to raise the bar and end what's going on. I can tell you for certain that some of these manufacturers who rip off the original ideas of others are in for a rude awakening and have a lot more to loose than the think.



Eric Dimmick
Darkside Motorsports

Eric,

I hope you have protected your product in the legal process. It's easy to copy a product, it's happened the 21+ years I've been in this hobby and it's even more wide spread in other industries...and that doesn't include COUNTERFEIT KNOCK OFFS in OEM style packaging.

Normally what I see is a stolen idea modified .01% or a color change...or some very minor change...maybe a less expensive material, etc.

I remember seeing a product a few years ago...that I THOUGHT was a rip off product..only to find out it WAS sold by the OE mfg. under another name...as a competitor against themselves...(Smart marketing)

I recently saw some mounts I thought were yours...and was told they were not. I mentioned to you recently that I had never seen any of yours, but the pics I've seen these looked really close and/or similar.

Eric,

I hope you have protected your product in the legal process. It's easy to copy a product, it's happened the 21+ years I've been in this hobby and it's even more wide spread in other industries...and that doesn't include COUNTERFEIT KNOCK OFFS in OEM style packaging.

Normally what I see is a stolen idea modified .01% or a color change...or some very minor change...maybe a less expensive material, etc.

I remember seeing a product a few years ago...that I THOUGHT was a rip off product..only to find out it WAS sold by the OE mfg. under another name...as a competitor against themselves...(Smart marketing)

I recently saw some mounts I thought were yours...and was told they were not. I mentioned to you recently that I had never seen any of yours, but the pics I've seen these looked really close and/or similar.

Steps have been taken and I can tell you that the person producing these RIP-OFF's is taking on a world of legal issues. I'm not yet certain the person behind this, but I'm going to find out very shortly.

Good luck Eric. You are one of the best guys in the industry, and things like thins need to be taken care of before they get out of control.

Joel White

Well that makes me think more seriously about protecting my car and it's components. I have started the patent process but need to push that along. Especially where I am starting to gain market share over my competitors. I guess like any other industry it's dog eat dog.

I've been observing a disturbing trend over the past year in the industry. It seems as though some companies are blatantly coping other manufacturer's products. It really hit home for me this evening. It's come to my attention that another company has begun producing a nearly identical replica of the Darkside wing mounts (And this is not the first time that it has happened). It's even more pathetic when the instructions that come with this RIP OFF product use THE SAME instruction diagram as I hand drafted myself. It is one thing to innovate an existing product to make it better, but is it a clearly different when it is practically a direct copy.

It is a sad commentary on the state of the industry when certain manufacturers cannot think and innovate for themselves, but must rely on copying the "out of the box" thinking of others to craft their product line. I think that it's coming time that we as manufacturers need to raise the bar and end what's going on. I can tell you for certain that some of these manufacturers who rip off the original ideas of others are in for a rude awakening and have a lot more to loose than the think.



Eric Dimmick
Darkside Motorsports


Eric it sucks yah it does but it does happen all the time in RC. in your case the key is "nearly identical" so unless you patiented the product there is very very little that you can do. As for the instuctions same goes for them un less the copyrighted litlle can be done there.

the best thing you can do is this thread and keep making those great products because we love them.


Dave P

i have seen wing mounts somewhat like yours but they didnt use graphite
so they would not be the same

i have seen wing mounts somewhat like yours but they didnt use graphite
so they would not be the same

Yep, some like those, made of delrin, are out there also, my early versions used black fiberglass instead of carbon also, but you're missing the point of my posting. It's still ripping off someone else's original idea.

-Eric

eric
i understood your point
andi know how you feel about it but these issues are not new
i personallly know of a direct copy when one company started their business and then changed it a little from there. and no i wont mention any names

eric
i understood your point
andi know how you feel about it but these issues are not new
i personallly know of a direct copy when one company started their business and then changed it a little from there. and no i wont mention any names


Guys have you looked at touring cars lately???? lol they all look the same.

If I were to build a car this is what I would do. I would take a KSG front clip, Maverick servo plate, and mate them to a custom works rear ( with one change)


it happens all the time.

and the problem with patients is after 7 years your done the patient is opened up for the world to see and copy exactly. because in a patient you have to explain the process in which the item is made.

Eric it's your choice you can call them out.

Eric it's your choice you can call them out.

We'll see if this can get resolved in a more civil manner before that. Dave, you know of one of the 2 offenders that I know are did/doing the copying

If you really want to bring this up how about when brad hayes of ADX made the first slider tray or the updated servo mounts or the alum. side shocks mounts, or rear steer slugs?????? How do you think he feels, some people might look at it as a good thing because they came up with something so innovative that other companies couldnt beat it they could only copy it.

ME

I saw these >>>Well we'll just call them HEAVY darkside copies... A buddy of mine bought the kit.. I looked at it and thought you made them for this other company.. That sucks... But dont worry man.. If were talking about the same kit ***Im sure we are*** Yours weigh about 1/4 of what those things do.. Whats funny is>>>The fact that they stuck so close to your design>>Yet using different materials is what causes them to be so heavy.. that and the hardware.. If someone were to actually DESIGN something out of the other guys materials they would have ended up a lot lighter...

From personal experience, in my day job we have a product thats been the industry standard for years, but now our patent protection has run out. Everybody in the sun is making copies, and its only a matter of time before they spend enough to make their copies close enough in performance to the our original that we'll start losing market share.

The trick is some companies have gone and used our art work in the instructions, which we still have copyright on. So they're reproducing copyrighted material and we hope to be able to exact some small form of punishment on that.

You'd hope that while this is a hobby industry and racing at the same time (meaning we're all gonna copy what works best), that when somebody comes up with a truly unique accessory that others would respect them enough not to sell blatant copies.

Eric,
I feel your pain. You should see how many dirt oval components of mine are copied...:cool:

The latest copy sells the EXACT same rear shock tower I have...even bought some of mine from me for the sole purpose of copying them. The legal process is in motion. Funny, my lawyer states not to worry, that it's much more expensive to be the defendant in the court system than it is to be the plaintiff. I believe some are in for a rude awakening that will cost them dearly...

Here's the good news. My lawyer stated that first you send a "Cease and Desist" notification, (a legal notification basically stating that they are infringing/selling someone elses protected entity) and even if they stop selling the part upon receipt of the notification, you can still recover damages (royalties, so to speak) on every component they sold thus far. Guess who get to place the figure on the damages?!? Not the person who stole the idea...:thumbsup:

Eric, maybe we should change our slogans to "INNOVATORS... NOT IMITATORS OR DUPLICATORS..."

INNOVATORS... NOT DUPLICATORS.. :thumbsup: hey thats my slogan lol

Dont feel bad. When I was working for Quantum, the company who's disk drive is most likely in all of your computers' we were testing a tilting head design to read the data in both directions. We were overthinking it when I suggested that we "try this" way, it eliminated a few parts and increased reliability. To my surprise I was awarded a patent plaque three years later and an attaboy. To my knowledge some deviation is used to this day in billions of drives,(Sony bought the company). I got nothing, it was deemed "intellectual property" as i signed a waver upon hiring. If you at least apply for the patent you are covered until it is approved or denied and it takes a long time to complete. At least you get to profit for 7 years...

I bought one of these "rip offs" from the local track... I was in need of another mount and a guuy said they had the darkside in stock, so i had him get one and put it on my car, then Kenwood showed me the difference and the 1/2 pound that i added to the rear of the car...lol... Hope it works out for you eric....

Personally I think they just improved upon your idea. From the pic it looks like they are using standard 4-40 size screws aluminum screws which is frankly a big improvement over your product, in my opinion.

I don't think what they have done is any different then manufacturers making improvements on the Associated front end parts.

I bought one of these "rip offs" from the local track... I was in need of another mount and a guuy said they had the darkside in stock, so i had him get one and put it on my car, then Kenwood showed me the difference and the 1/2 pound that i added to the rear of the car...lol... Hope it works out for you eric....

I didnt want to embarass you by dragging your name into it.. FWIW Tim bought them as well..LOL.

Personally I think they just improved upon your idea. From the pic it looks like they are using standard 4-40 size screws aluminum screws which is frankly a big improvement over your product, in my opinion.

I don't think what they have done is any different then manufacturers making improvements on the Associated front end parts.

Well, that's your opinion, which I strongly disagree with. I guess that you'd also argue that they "improved" upon my original instruction diagram as well with some white-out and a couple of quick edits?

-E

FWIW the ones Me/James are speaking of dont have alum screws... the screws in his kit were 50% of the problem..

Here's the good news. My lawyer stated that first you send a "Cease and Desist" notification, (a legal notification basically stating that they are infringing/selling someone elses protected entity) and even if they stop selling the part upon receipt of the notification, you can still recover damages (royalties, so to speak) on every component they sold thus far. Guess who get to place the figure on the damages?!? Not the person who stole the idea...:thumbsup:

Eric, maybe we should change our slogans to "INNOVATORS... NOT IMITATORS OR DUPLICATORS..."

Getting the ball rolling on that, thanks for the advice.

-Eric

Well that makes me think more seriously about protecting my car and it's components. I have started the patent process but need to push that along. Especially where I am starting to gain market share over my competitors. I guess like any other industry it's dog eat dog.
are you realy? I remember you telling me you copied certain things from another company, be careful what you say, and gaining market share over your competitors? lol

E- good luck man, that CLEARLY is a copy, we all know what the real thing is.

Well, that's your opinion, which I strongly disagree with. I guess that you'd also argue that they "improved" upon my original instruction diagram as well with some white-out and a couple of quick edits?

-E

Agreed it is a bit pathetic they copied your directions, in more ways than one. Whether or not their product is "improved" over yours is not worth arguing. If guys feel it it is they'll buy it and maybe you should copy their copy, so to speak. If not then you are good to go.

I would honestly like to hear your perspective on why this is any different than aftermarket parts for the Associated front end. I can put an entire "Associated Style" front end on my car without buying an Associated part. We all accept that.

Who came up with the idea for the slider chassis? It wasn't you, but I seem to see one offered for you Darkside car.

This is just the nature of business in general and especially in our little RC world. One person/company comes up with a new innovative product and other companies run with the idea and "improve" it, or try to. You don't have a problem with this when you are the one improving someone elses idea, but you do when it is someone else who improves yours? Seems more than a little hypocritical to me.

There are HUGE major industries that have this happen to them daily. In some cases they are able to sue for copyright infringements, etc. but in many cases that doesn't happen.

Sadly, the r/c industry being fairly small, most companies don't have protection on their products...and even if they did, most don't have the resources to follow it up with legal action.

Well, the only quick way to stop this problem is to hurt them in the wallet. I would try to make sure that your distributors don't carry their knockoff products just the original.

Good luck Eric!!! You got onboard with me from the beginning and I will stick with your products!!!!!

Face it, R/C oval is a small niche market in the grand scheme of R/C racing in general! Is there "room" for multiple manufacturers of rear wing mount systems? I doubt it but the fact remains that when the barrier to entry (capital investment) is low, knockoffs will abound. Why do you think the Assoc. front end has been the mainstay for so long? Because injection molding tools to reproduce it would cost a small fortune!

I own the Darkside unit and am happy with it. Your legal action just might work as im confident the revenue it's capable of generating would never pay even minimal attorneys fees.

Yes fortune 500 companies do this everyday but they compete in global markets with much more to gain and plenty left over to pay the lawyers on staff to fight the battles that result from such action. Its impossible to compare this to what Eric is dealing with.

just my .02

its a sad thing but it happends all the time..i'm in the karting industry and my kart manufactor had is kart copied to the "T". another guy bought a frame and built a jig off of it.the only thing changed was the size of the front bar and the name. bad part is there wasnt anything he could do about it. Eric good luck and my cars only run the darkside mounts!

Eric - I got one piece of advise for you, don't worry so much about the little stuff dude. Spend that time dreaming up new ideas and don't worry about somebody making something just like yours. Look at it this way, you have had this product on the market for what, a couple years or so, you have sold a ton of them, it is the most well know wing mount system in the RC oval industry, god you even had a body manaufacture advertise it for use with there bodies. No matter what anybody else makes, everybody knows you came up with this first, don't worry about it.

Many people in this industry copy things they see and there is both good and bad in that. The good, is when a company develops a good idea they design it, market it and sell a ton of them and the bad is only for the people coping it. They are the one's that are behind the curve, they will only just follow and never be leaders in the industry becasue all there time is spent measuring parts, not designing them. When I had Pro Parts there were a few things I copied from other people, I changed them a little bit to make them a little different, no biggy, many have done it and still do it today. There were even people that copied what I did, no biggy, like the standup shock car. I built one, it worked pretty great and you thought, hey, cool, I want to try that, so you built one. You did not hear any complaints from me becasue it is no big deal, it just made me go back to the drawing board and work on the next idea. Ideas from other people sometimes lead to great things. As long as you know you did it first and can sell a ton of something before everybody else comes out with it, it's all good and hopefully by the time everybody else makes that same part, you are already coming out with something better.

Eric, I like you, I think you are a pretty nice guy, kind of goooooffffy sometimes,lol, well most of the time lol, but stop worying about the small things. As for getting layers and that whole bit, again, save your time and money. Again, spend that time and money on the next new idea.

Later

Brent Redlin
Up Front Design

over the r/c years i've seen all kinds of copies... bodies, chassis', ball cups, shocks, motor mounts, wings, wing mounts, front castor blocks, shock towers, motor brushes, and more...

it happens, and then someone makes something better, then someone copies it and so on.

life is short, don't sweat it, just up it up a notch on the next design. :thumbsup:

I do not see how you guys are comparing a slider chassie or front ends up rite shocks that do the same thing but look nothing alike this is about a COPIE that looks and works the exact same just made out of one diffent part an alum block instead of delrin.

I do not think Eric is saying they cant make a wing mount (ie front end,slider ect) just not a total copie of his.

Reinvent the product not just copie it just my 2cents.

I only say this because I have a Darkside car all though it has all the features of other type cars out there today his are diffent 4 hole adjusters,4 pos adj plate front end,a squar 3 pos rear steer ect .It is easy to copie some one else not as easy to use the same idea but make it your own.

good luck Jake

Welcome to the oval industry gentleman, there are few originators and a bunch of immitators. However unless there is a patent on the idea as to how it works and is original well, your actually done. Plus the $20k to research and start a patent is it really worth it?
Eric, there is one thing that you have over this person already, your mount is recognized by ProtoForm for the mounting positions on the HD Charger. That is some great recognition you gained there.

Just because it isn't patented doesn't make it ethical to copy anything.

Just a thought.

another thing I think about is availability of a copied product.

Sometimes a racer will stumble onto a product when they are at an out-of-town event, then when they get back home and race with the local guys...somebody will see something on a car and say "Hey, I like that..where did you get it?" the racer may or may not remember and not have the package the product came in...a search at the LHS may come up empty (I know it would at MINE cause they don't have CRAP) so...they engineer their own...another racer sees it and says "Hey, make me a few of those too" next thing you know the guy who makes a copy of something who never even knew WHO made the original has a small local market for this NEW to the AREA product. (This example happened at OUR local Dirt Oval track 20 years ago, and the guy ended up starting a small mfg. deal and made tons of stuff for our local guys...and actually started sending stuff the HobbyShops across the country) Does this make it right? NOT~ It does however, show a little different twist on how things sometimes get started.

I do not see how you guys are comparing a slider chassie or front ends up rite shocks that do the same thing but look nothing alike this is about a COPIE that looks and works the exact same just made out of one diffent part an alum block instead of delrin.

I do not think Eric is saying they cant make a wing mount (ie front end,slider ect) just not a total copie of his.

Reinvent the product not just copie it just my 2cents.

I only say this because I have a Darkside car all though it has all the features of other type cars out there today his are diffent 4 hole adjusters,4 pos adj plate front end,a squar 3 pos rear steer ect .It is easy to copie some one else not as easy to use the same idea but make it your own.

good luck Jake

My point in a nutshell.

-E

All you have to do is change 5% of the product.Which isn't hard to do on most things.

I presented this situation to our liability and patent representatives at my place of employment (aerospace industry; VERY sensitive to patent issues and discrepancy).

Without documentation of proof of a formal filing for patent, you have no leg on which to stand from what they shared.

Does it make it "right"? I think the consensus is "NO". Is it illegal? Not even close to being illegal.

Joe

PS I have a true Darkside Wing Mounting Kit; not a copy!!! And it's a damn nice piece. The comment regarding Dale Epp and Protoform is spot-on too; a compliment to Darkside if there ever was one.

I invented everything Robin. Hoo hoo!

Just givin' you a bump for your troubles. Hope everything can be settled Eric. :thumbsup:

http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/500/signature.jpg

Happening once again.... Nearly a year later, but sad to say, not much ever changes in the R/C industry

Just got me one of those Darkside wing mounts.....IT ROCKS...often imitated, BUT never duplicated!!

Thanks, Jim

I think everyone copies everyone in some way shape or form.

Just got me one of those Darkside wing mounts.....IT ROCKS...often imitated, BUT never duplicated!!

Thanks, Jim
yup,,,, home of the original mounts.....original? even the proto bodies come pre formed with the design of Darkside mounts..

So who did what?

So who did what?

I would assume he is complaining about the KSG mounts now.

HOW? the KSG mount is nothing like the Darkside wing mount. Well other than it mounts to the body in the rear window.

Hey Eric, silly question, when did you think up your wing mount design? Just curious, since you measured the Parrish/Ziggy ones like 70x (slight exadgeration) before yours even existed. I'm not trying to start a war here. It's just that YOU and I both know who made rear window wing mounts in the same style that you use now first. I'm just trying to say don't claim it as your original idea when it really isn't. I think someone should ask Ziggy how original erics wing mounts are. If you read this Zig please set him straight!

Sorry for venting a bit guys but that is the straight up truth.

Bud Denning

Thank you Todd and Eric for starting the legal steps in stopping the knock-offs. When I buy part for my r/c car I am rewarding the man who came up with the idea. If I buy a knock-off I am only rewarding the cheaters. I rather kick the cheaters out of r/c, and keep the innovators.

Anyone heard of China? They will make clones of anything....How about a BMW X5...yes they even make fake BMW's

Thank you Todd and Eric for starting the legal steps in stopping the knock-offs. When I buy part for my r/c car I am rewarding the man who came up with the idea. If I buy a knock-off I am only rewarding the cheaters. I rather kick the cheaters out of r/c, and keep the innovators.

Anyone heard of China? They will make clones of anything....How about a BMW X5...yes they even make fake BMW's
So what you are saying is no one is allowed to mount there wings in the back window? Now thats funny...I am saying this and I only own a Darkside mount and I am happy with it...The KSG looks nothing like the Darkside and if you ask me the Darkside is nicer...Both look like they work effectively.. Justin