is there any way to tune a NOVAK brushless 10.5.HOWANYTHING OTHER THAN TIMING WHAT WILL TIMING DO

From what I have heard they are pretty much set up from the factory and most "adjusting of the timing" does little if any good. Work on your chassis. Ralf

I Know It's Alot About The Chassis But 2 Equal Chassis And Drivers Then It's Motor

No, then its about who drive the better race, bolt the 10.5 motor in your car, find a good gear and then its ALL chassis work to go faster. you dont tune brushless motors

nno 2 drivers or chassis are the same tune the car thats how you go fast. the last half tenth is the hardest to find

No matter what the rules, equipment or what, there always has to be winners and losers, and some people will never admit that the other guy was better at set up or driving so it HAS TO BE THE MOTOR (or the battery)! That is why some people are always throwing money at the hoby instead of learning set up and driving. Thought brushless would help but some people will always need an excuse. I say let them race brushed motors then they will have something to blame it on. Ralf

Im Not Implying That Theres Cheating.chassis And Driver Skill Is The Biggest Part Im Only Asking A Question To Maybe Learn More.

That is the beauty of the brushless motors. There is nothing to learn! What track do you run at? Ask some questions about your set up, what car are you driving? You will get more speed by working on the chassis and practice, practice, practice. Ralf

Iceman,
This is another one of those cheaper and less expensive classes, I pit with severial great racers and motor builders and some of these guys say that tuning or moving the timing is a big thing sine the socalled 4300 class is 100% equal, ( B S ). I have seen data that shows diffrent and the timing does make a diffrence. I would also add that to find out for sure is ask the manufacturer to get the solid answer.

i don't know were your getting your info, but its wrong!!!!!!!!!
we have been running brushless for over 3 years and they are all virtually identical, and moving the timing just changes the sweet spot of the motor, making you run a tooth or two different in your gearing. stop spreading bad info, it is a lot cheaper to run brushless
we have proved that over and over again!!!

Iceman,
This is another one of those cheaper and less expensive classes, I pit with severial great racers and motor builders and some of these guys say that tuning or moving the timing is a big thing sine the socalled 4300 class is 100% equal, ( B S ). I have seen data that shows diffrent and the timing does make a diffrence. I would also add that to find out for sure is ask the manufacturer to get the solid answer.

I would be curious to know who these great racers are because they obviously don't have a real good handle on the Brushless world.

BTW: If your using a Fantom or CE dyno to compare timing on motors that would be your first mistake....

The bottom line on the timing issue is that it will effect gear ratio but not over all performance. As proof of this of the two fastest 4300 cars at the BRL finals one had timing the other was left at the factory setting, different roll outs for both but nearly identical lap times.

As far as the motors being equal the variance is less then 2% from factory. You would be hard pressed to find a batch of 20 brushed motors that would even come close to that standard,

Quite honestly the only BS about brushless is the stuff uninformed Individuals like you keep posting. I have over 200 racers in the Midwest that will back me up on that.

Iceman -

From what we are hearing and learning, and as common sense would tell you - NO two motors are going to be identical. There could be somewhere from what I'm being told as much as a 2% variance in 'identical' motors. To me that says if I have 3 motors, I could have one 2% better than the middle one..and one 2% worse than the middle one.

Crunching numbers using the 10.5 (4300) motor

4300 Kv = 4300 rpm per volt @ 4.956 v (1.239 x 4) = 21310.8 rpm 'unloaded'

2% less rpm = 20884.5
2% more rpm = 21737.0

Again, these are 'unloaded' RPM's. What I've seen so far looks like under load these motors are pulling approx. 60-70% of that RPM depending on the type of track

Going 2% Low to 2% High gives less than 1,000 RPM variance 'unloaded'

If you use a WATT number - I don't remember off hand the 10.5 watt rating, but for yucks I'll use 160 MAX watts (which would be based on MAX input VOLTAGE - NOT 4 cell Voltage) add 2% there and you'd jump to 163.2 watts

if the 160 was based on 6 cell, then 4 cell would be closer to 106.5 watts and the +2% could jump it to 108.6.

All that said, since B/L motors do not gear the way a Brushed motor does - it appears if you are carrying a little less RPM - in general you can get away with a tad more gear....where the brushed motor may fade away.

These motors WILL require better car setups. Guys who had GReAT BATTERIES and MOTORS but so so cars...vs guys who had GREAT CARS but so so motors and batteries will no longer be equal.

I'm not sure, but if I had 3 motors, and there is only a 2% variance, then motor 1, 2 or 3 would have no more than 2% variance worst to last. If the motor in the middle was actualy in the middle, motor 3 would be 1% +/- as would motor 1.

Fact is, you can do whatever you want to these motors and they just run. Chassis setup and drivability has, and always will be why one racer will win and another will not. BL or brushed. So why even mess with the thing at all?

If you want an advantage try this. Change one thing to your car (and only one) after you have practiced for 10 - 20 laps. Then go back out after you charge the batteries up again, and write down any difference in a book. When the car gets faster and/or handles better, keep that change and move to something else. Don't forget to change it back if it's worse or no change at all.

The above also works with driving style and matching that with the rollout and chassis setup. Again, go out with a full charge and do 10 - 20 laps driving as you normaly would. Come back in, charge it up again and do 10 - 20 laps using a different line. you can change the apex or when you let off the throttle, but be consistant. You will see a bigger difference using these two methods than anything you can possible do to a brushless motor.

Just my 2 cents worth.

If you want an advantage try this. Change one thing to your car (and only one) after you have practiced for 10 - 20 laps. Then go back out after you charge the batteries up again, and write down any difference in a book. When the car gets faster and/or handles better, keep that change and move to something else. Don't forget to change it back if it's worse or no change at all.

The above also works with driving style and matching that with the rollout and chassis setup. Again, go out with a full charge and do 10 - 20 laps driving as you normaly would. Come back in, charge it up again and do 10 - 20 laps using a different line. you can change the apex or when you let off the throttle, but be consistant. You will see a bigger difference using these two methods than anything you can possible do to a brushless motor.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I have to say, that is some of the best advice I have ever read on this site. :thumbsup:

I have tested 3 different 4300 motors w sintered rotors in all 3 ...At my home track ...Same car same tire size and comparable batteries ...And run exactly the same run with all 3 motors ...All within a thousandth of each other ...56.4.00.13 56.400.06 56.4.00.19. Cant get any closer than that ...

...and it's hard to get a better TEST subject than the consistancy of HUMPTY.

JBELL31

You are correct about the 2% being only 1% in either direction...but I went so far as to say...2% in either direction..and you see the difference. A hole lot LESS than any 3 BRUSHED motors I have...

This isn't a tuning question as much as a gearing question and maybe swtour can help. What is the actually RPM these motors are running at a big track like Encino Velo? I'm trying to figure out a starting rollout based on RPM (using Associated website) and the gear ratio is almost shocking.

Bingo.

Humpty, is that the best you can do? Sheeesh. I wish I was that consistant.
3 motors... I did say if I had 3 motors...lol :freak:

If I had three motors, that would mean that i had about an extra $160 bucks. I would have spent that on three 1/4 scale tires. I already have a brushless motor and ESC. I'm not sure what a second or third would do for me.

I went to one BRL event (Had a flippin blast) and I ran in the middle of the pack. You may want to know, I haden't run a 10th scale car in over two years and didn't practice but once at a different track. I was 2 or 3 laps off the pace, but I can tell you, there were some good drivers there.

2 - 3 laps = about 8 to 12 seconds. When you're talking 79 or 80 laps, that's pretty close. Couldn't have asked for much better. If I practiced 1/2 as much as some of them out there, I'm sure I could run up front, but again, one bobble and you are a lap down. It don't take much.

Oh BTW, the car I have is Jammie Hanson's old car from 06.
:wave:

This isn't a tuning question as much as a gearing question and maybe swtour can help. What is the actually RPM these motors are running at a big track like Encino Velo? I'm trying to figure out a starting rollout based on RPM (using Associated website) and the gear ratio is almost shocking.

I mentioned this on the Indy thread, but I honestly would start by buying the largest available pinion and smallest available spur for Indy. From there I would first make sure the motor does not get too hot. If it doesn't then do a full run for time and see what you get. Drop a couple teeth and do another full run and see if it faster or not. This is probably the quickest way to zero in.

INDY,

I've been using approx 70% of the 4300 x battery voltage number as my base rpm for the velo.

Using the 19t TQ time from the '06 VELO NATS which I think was a 19/4:03 or so...

to equal that the final gear would be close to a 1.81 ( 88/49 )

We ran taller than that out here...(I think Scot ran a 88/55, but he didn't beat the 19t track record...) We ran 88/45 on our NASTRUCK w/ TQ but didn't have nearly the speed as the Stock Car bodies...but I think it was still 1 tooth overgeared. (We only run 3800's in truck and ALL of our classes are 5 minute)

Being you guys only run 4 minute...I'd go 88/60 or equivilant to start...and see how THAT runs. (Which would be a 1.47 final ratio) which is what...a 4.19 ROLL OUT

Being you guys only run 4 minute...I'd go 88/60 or equivilant to start...and see how THAT runs. (Which would be a 1.47 final ratio) which is what...a 4.19 ROLL OUT


About 5.19 you mean?

About 5.19 you mean?

WOW,

I have NO idea what I hit to get 4.19, but I knew that didn't sound right...

60/88x2.5x3.1416=5.355

egad...

holy rollout batman hehehehehehe

PRS is making smaller then 88 spurs now just for brushless.check them out

I do have a 73 tooth spur and a 67 tooth pinion. Do think that is enough gear?:eek:

How do ya get yer winky in there to set the mesh. (allen wrench)

I do have a 73 tooth spur and a 67 tooth pinion. Do think that is enough gear?:eek:


6.6ish rollout, Now thats what i'm talking about

...try 7.2ish w/ velo tires if my math is any better today...LOL

Bob
I have to be very careful with my winky:lol: Actually I have never used the pinion but with brushless who knows.

If I buy a 13.5 and run a 120 spur what pinion would i use on a 165 track

55 or 56 with 2.18 tires!

At the very least if you are running the sintered rotor. Invest in a smaller spur it'll be alot cheaper than a whole bunch of pinions.

I agree. Bojo, I run a 112 in 4300. Some are running even smaller than that.

Joel White

ok thanks

Not here to debate timing 'yes or no' - but I helped do a tech tip on http://www.rctvlive.com and you can see how to add timing. Show 701. Enjoy....

You finnaly get to run the motor you will run in races and main in pratice with brushless and it wont vary from the first run to the last. The only thing that will affect your racing is rollout, chassis setup including tires and body, driving skill/drive line and battery quailty. Yes in time as the magnets on the rotor degrade it will change but if you dont over gear it will take a long time. Now you get to spend your time where it counts. Check temp and lap times on motor during rollout changes, make chassis changes and try a different line and stop spending time on the motor itself. Thats the advantage of brushless!!! It will also be cheaper in the long run so spend the extra bucks and time on better chassis or your woman LOL.

I'm not sure, but if I had 3 motors, and there is only a 2% variance, then motor 1, 2 or 3 would have no more than 2% variance worst to last. If the motor in the middle was actualy in the middle, motor 3 would be 1% +/- as would motor 1.

Fact is, you can do whatever you want to these motors and they just run. Chassis setup and drivability has, and always will be why one racer will win and another will not. BL or brushed. So why even mess with the thing at all?

If you want an advantage try this. Change one thing to your car (and only one) after you have practiced for 10 - 20 laps. Then go back out after you charge the batteries up again, and write down any difference in a book. When the car gets faster and/or handles better, keep that change and move to something else. Don't forget to change it back if it's worse or no change at all.

The above also works with driving style and matching that with the rollout and chassis setup. Again, go out with a full charge and do 10 - 20 laps driving as you normaly would. Come back in, charge it up again and do 10 - 20 laps using a different line. you can change the apex or when you let off the throttle, but be consistant. You will see a bigger difference using these two methods than anything you can possible do to a brushless motor.

Just my 2 cents worth.

If you have to open these brushless motors to check the rotors for a good one ,advance the timing by turning the endbell, change the wires on the speedo ect.ect. why does anybody want to run brushless ? The only way to be maintainence free is to seal these motors with no access at all.Until then i'll keep running brushed.

If you have to open these brushless motors to check the rotors for a good one ,advance the timing by turning the endbell, change the wires on the speedo ect.ect. why does anybody want to run brushless ? The only way to be maintainence free is to seal these motors with no access at all.Until then i'll keep running brushed.

You don't "need" to check the rotors for a good one. If you buy a motor there is a 99% chance the rotor will be as good as everyone elses. After a year of running there is a very very good chance it'll still be just as good as anyone elses.

You don't need to advance the timing. It changes the sweet spot of the gearing, little else.

If your brushed speedo has 14 awg wires there is a small benefit to going 12 just the same as there is with BL.

Motor work for racing BL requires about a half a hour PER YEAR. If you are very quick at building brushed motors and a very casual racer you might get away with a half a hour PER WEEK of motor work racing brushed.

I won't even get into the cost savings, which for me is huge.

well said PMSIMKINS!