Looks like i'm off to the hobby shop again.

i'll pick up the soft brushes and comm stick before i pull the motors apart. and about the bearings, i usually take a tooth brush to them cause i've had experience with air cans pushing dirt into the bearings and ruining them. just my $.02.

thanks guys for the tips.

theres a machine shop at work and they have several lathes.. could this be trued up on any lathe or does it need to be one special for truing motors?

Q

Bill, let me know if the bolink spur is better than the duratrax. i'll need to pick one up soon so start running that thing. :D

Q

Q, I would have to run the Bolink for a month to tell you if it holds up better than the Duratrax. There under $5. not to much of a gamble either way. B

The Reedy Truck Race is this weekend. I'd tell you more about it but I can't seem to load up HRH's website from work. I have no idea about Simi Valley...

The racing season is pretty much done for this year. I don't keep track of big races too much unless I plan on going.

Re bearings, I posted a big how-to here: http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29543 But I'm rethinking some of what I posted. For instance, soap and water have been working better and are a LOT cheaper than liberal amounts of motor spray. You can put the shields back on the metal kind but it's still almost impossible with the sealed ones because you tear up the seal getting it out.

A compressor would do no good at our track. It's damp and the mud gets IN things.

I've thought of putting a comm on a real lathe. The main problem is one of support and clearance. If you hold it by the shaft from the pinion end, it'll be bouncy. If you add a live center at the other end it'll be hard to get the bit in there. But I haven't actually tried it.

i'll talk to one of the machinists and see if they think its do'able. i dont think i'll try it on my own. but thanks, i'll make sure to point out that support and clearance are the key.

Q

Originally posted by Q2k2
Looks like i'm off to the hobby shop again.

theres a machine shop at work and they have several lathes.. could this be trued up on any lathe or does it need to be one special for truing motors?

Q

Most of our comm lathes would fit in a small lunch box. They are realy small and simple.

If you have a lathe at work that can handle something this small and it has a bit used for copper or other soft metals, I don't see a problem. Make sure you practice on an old arm first.

Don't try to spin the arm too fast. I use an old 540 size motor powered with 3.20 volts and carbide bits (less than $2 at Granger). I think diamond bits are over rated.

:dude:

Dan, Sorry I'll miss it, already made plans. Next year I'll be more on the ball. The other "Simi Valley" race was in fact Sun Valley and the track is KZ Speedway and the events they are talking about are next years. Sorry

Here is a quick run down:

IFMAR events
Sept. 28 to Oct. 5 = 1/5 scale worlds
Oct 12 to Oct. 19 = 1/10 Off Road world

more info at 818-771-1003

speakin of brushless, has anyone tried a brushless system in an evader? (or dared):) i dont think the run times would be very good with 6 cells, you wouldnt get much torque would u? and even if you did, would the tranny be able to handle it? i have heard of brushless systems mainly on emaxx's since they can carry more cells. Novak has a brushless combo coming out tho, wonder if its any good.

p.n.e.

Bill's business partner bought a brushless motor but we havent heard yet how it performs. so its good you brought it up so we can hear some results. brushless motors are pretty pricey tho. but of course you save money and time on maintenance.

Q

p.n.e.,

I picked up on Bob's comment also. I'm watching a Evader ST with a Aveox system being born as we speak. Waiting on a batt/esc plug and then some test runs. To date all I can say is that purchase on ebay ($220. for the motor and controller), set up and installation went well and without any problems. Let me know if you want more details.

Bill

Aveox email address is info@aveox.com

Aveox Motor RC7 = spins 4000 rpm/volt or 24,000@6v
For off road they suggest a 5:1 gear ratio.
"The RPM is similar to a 14T Quad"
15 to 20% more efficient than Modifieds
Says, a mod motor will drop to 17,000rpm under a 45 amp load theirs will stay at 21,000 rpm. Which is a 20% increase in your top end.

Matched Controller #160/360RC

5:1? is that like 17-18 tooth pinion with the stock spur? what upgrades are needed? I know good batteries are a must with brushless systems. anything else?

They don't reccommend pinion gear numbers. They are trying to meet a larger market than just 1/10 sacle off road. They do suggest that you use a 2:1 to 3:1 gearing "to start" for on road cars. Maybe compairing the two suggestions will give you an idea. I just don't know at this stage until I try several tooth #'s.

We will start with the stock Evader set up, only changing the motor and controller. Then we can start to investigate other modifications once we have a base line.

p.n.e.,

Your comments about batteries made me realize that nothing is specificly said about the power source. They refer to 6 cell NiCad's and 2 amp hour NiCad. There is also a reference to voiding the warranty if you power it up over 40,000 rpm. I did also note that it says 6 or more cells can be used.

I will try a 1500 and 2400 Nc and a 3000 Mh. Thats the sizes we have.

There is some info and links in the General Discussion section. Thread "I took the Brushless Plunge" pg 2

:confused: "RPM like a 14T motor" and "5 to 1 gear ratio" do not compute. I guess they must the spur/pinion ratio, in which case it's conservative. Overall ratio for a 14 turn motor in a truck is usually about 10.5:1.

The way they're using the power numbers to sell it is a little misleading. You can tell it was written by airplane people. A motor hooked up to a propeller gets used differently. Essentially you choose a power and the plane consumes it through drag, acceleration, and climb. No normal offroad car can pull 45A at top speed unless it's geared to the moon. It just doesn't have enough weight or drag. It's under accel, at low RPM and low efficiency, that the serious amp draws occur. Yes it's got more torque up high, but the only way to use it is to gear way up to get more top speed. Then your low-end performance may suffer. This is the same tradeoff we always make.

I'll be waiting for your report with interest...

Right on Dan. You can almost see where they used white out and retyped car.:D

Dang, I work my fanny off and miss a few days of this thread and had to read nearly three pages to catch up. I'll have to work less ;)

I tried out the slipper adjustment thingy (holding my truck by the rear wheels) and it sure works a lot better than listening for noise does! Between that, the diff gear tightening trick (with it out of the box) and the new motor, I'm having a lot more fun. I need to clean my motor again and this time I'm switching to the polarised set of brushes and ditching the high-silver ones that came with my Greenie.

Servo savers...I took a look at the Kimbrough ones, but I can't for the life of me figure out how the heck I would install one. The stock setup sorta "splits" the steering setup between two sides, but is connected at the front and back. I hope that makes sense without everyone having to go look at their setups heh How do you install one of the Kimbroughs that look like a wheel with a tab attached that has holes in it? How would you hook up the steering without a servo saver? It just doesn't click in my head.

p.n.e. - I'm using a 19-tooth pinion right now. I plan to buy a few other sizes and give things a real road test (literally - we play mostly on asphalt). When I bought a few other pinions at my LHS, I also bought a few different spur gears. Instead of dropping another tooth or two on the pinion, I am going to try out the 90-tooth HPI carbon fibre spur I picked up. Interestingly, it was cheaper than the RPM Stealth Pro by two bucks. The Stealth Pro is just plastic, but it's milled instead of moulded. Big whoop. I'll let you guys know how it goes with the carbon fibre spur installed when I slap it in. I did try a test fit when I first bought it, so I know it'll work and the gear race (the outer part) is thicker than the RPM ones, so there is more contact between it and the pinion. We'll see how it all goes.

I probably won't get a chance to do any bashing tomorrow. They're forecasting a 60% chance of rain, so I'll just clean my motor and swap the spur gear on my truckster and do some mods on my Canned Heat/Auldey Race Tin cars.

Take care, guys!

In a full size lathe, could you grab the stacks in the chuck? Then you could have a shorter distance to the comm from the last point if contact.

James

Mock me if you like, for I am indeed a nerd. I'm secure enough with that fact to make a living at it.

I remember when people first started talking about Aveox motors. They suddenly cleaned up in F5 competitions and the Europeans took a few years fighting back. The first time I saw one in an R/C car was the second Insane Speed competition. That was, oh, early 90s maybe? The RC7 is their second generation of car motor but look at what else they sell - dozens of models of airplane motors.

I've been running numbers. It seems like it'll be only average, if not worse, down low, but it really shines up high. Strange. Also noteworthy is that you hit the ESC's current limiter to save the batts way before you even see the limits of the motor, whereas it's easy to cook a brushed motor without hurting the batteries.

Dan,
Rejoice in your nerdness. We have entered the "Age of the Nerds". Nerds are cool now. And they make all the money whil we work at our jock/prep jobs. Think Bill Gates. The Super Nerd.

James

Dan, If your willing I would like to fax you four pages of information that came with this set up. Take a look and tell me what you think? e-mail me your fax number. Bill

kitty - the Kimbrough servo saver replaces the servo arm.

Anakist - I suppose you could chuck it that way. The stack is fairly strucural, enough that it's where we put the drive belt on a comm lathe. Don't crank it down too hard. Gates made his money by clever foresight, not his coding skill.

Bill - I used to have an E-Fax number but damn if I can remember anything about it. I'll set up a new account and get back to you.

G'night.

Yeah I know. But think of all the people now who are nerds and making big bucks. For doing what they would do anyway. Playing (sort of) on a computer. Are you a coder? I tried it, but couldn't get the hang of it. Maybe in a few years when I have some spare time.

James

Bill - is any of it the same as what's on Aveox's documentation page on their site?

Anakist - I'm an engineer. I know enough about programming to squeak by.

Kitty,

Glad to hear you are having more fun. My mission was a success!

Brushless:

There was an interesting article in the new Extreme RC magazine. I don't have it handy so I'm going on 2-week-old memory. They put a bushless (only one is needed)in an E-Maxx. It required gearing down as their motor was equal to an 8 turn. :eek:

The results were better run time and great speed. The only complaint was the speed control was a little large by today's standars.

The initial cost is high but if you consider the price of a high-end ESC, motor and maintenance cost over the life of just one brushed motor it looks much better. As a brushless motor stands to last much longer it just keeps on getting better.

Add a little competition between manufactures and prices will come down. :thumbsup:

Brushless sounds like a great idea.. but i think i'll wait for that manufacturers competition before i buy one.

Q

It's already happening. Aveox's system is obsolete (sorry Bill), Hacker and Lehner systems are available. God only knows when Orion or Novak will release their systems. I'm betting that they're playing with the software in the controller to make it more driveable.

what sort of prices are we looking at for the Hacker and Lehner Setups?

Q

Originally posted by Q2k2
what sort of prices are we looking at for the Hacker and Lehner Setups?

Q

I've heard somewhere in the $250 to $275 range for controler and motor. Tower has Novac's posted due in Dec at $250.
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p.pgm?Q=1&I=LXDDD7&P=7

They also show the Orion Vortex at $89 (Motor only) and the controller at $206.99. Both due Late October.

Afternoon Everyone:

Spent the morning, amoung other things, hooking up Mark's Evader ST to the Aveox brushless motor and matched controller. Total cost $250. The Evader is stock with no more than 20 runs on it. Only the motor and controller (ESC) were changed. Was tested with a 3000 mh batt.

Excellent first impressions. Fast top end, good handeling controll with radio, controller, and car. So much low end power the evader set up could not put it on the ground very well. Very strong reverse. Time of run, hard to say, we both drove it about 2 mins. each, spent a min. adjusting the slipper, and drag raced each other for about a min. At least 6 to 7 mins and there was a little more time left on the batt. No heat problems at all.

The drag race results. My Evader w/ SG2 19T 20Pin only stayed ahead of him by driving straighter, he traveled 3 times as far and was never more than 3' of my tail. When he gets it dialed in and set up properly I'm toast.

Dan I'm off to their site to compare notes.

Later
Bill

thanks for the update Bill.. i've been waiting (im)patiently :D

so it sounds like its a definate improvement but not the 14T Quad equivilant that was expected. that sound about right?

and you mentioned a lot of low end power. in previous posts i was under the impression that the low end power would suffer but top end would be a huge increase. intresting..

Q

Hi Q,

Like I said stock evader, I should have said really stock. Getting the available power, bottom to top end, to the ground was poor. The tires always broke lose, powering through the sterring, all types of correctable issues. Bottom line to much power for a stock Evader. Spring, oil, tires, weight distrabution, and other basic mods are needed.

It may not be equal to a 14T and all I can say at this point is it is better than a 19T. A lot better.

Dan,
The info on their site is very close. The site numbers are a little better than the paperworks. Newer copy I think. But yes the site will give you most of the same information.

Jep,
Do you still sell the Evader bumper?

Jep if i may...

Bill, Jep sent me this when i inquired about the his coushined bumper a few weeks ago. so unless he's started making them again check out the losi bumper. is this for you or for mark :D

http://www.rpmrcproducts.com/products/losi/chassis.htm#Cushioned

Thanks Q

I was looking over this entire thread last night and ran across it. Looks good to me. B

I was going to try the bumper on mine. Mark needs the wide open spaces. Bumpers will not protect him. How is the Evader trans doing, got the bugs worked out?

no problem as always.

yesterday i bought new soft brushes and a comm stick. tonight i'll be pulling my motors apart to see just how bad they look inside.:eek:

wish me luck
Q

yeah i think the trans is working good. just the slipper whistle that had me a little worried but all is well.

now its the loss of 'pep' thats got me concerned but i'm sure the tune up to the motors tonight will handle that.

fyi, cant wait to get my hands on that Pede. :devil: i'll have the PhotonSpeed 20T cleaned and ready to drop in upon delivery.

Q

Cooool. Welcome to real mod! You're going to have to learn throttle control. No longer can you pin it and expect to remain upright, much less pointed forward!

The numbers I calculated showed it was going to make less power at very low amp draws. But I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the implications of all that torque. I need to drive one in person.

I took my first motor apart today, the Photon. It was a lot easier than I thought. Also learned you do not need to undo the capasitors.
Found a shot comm. Was the shape of a full figured woman. Even had some copper gone near one of the serrations.

Dan feel like visiting Catalina?

well its good to hear that a rookie like myself thought it was easier than expected. i'm interested in seeing what they look like on the inside. judging by the elements i've run both motors in i'm predicting some less than desireable conditions.

such is life tho eh?

Q

I found my brush housing was really bad, mainly the bottom plate. Any ideas on repairing this area.

i'm outta here.

i'll let you know how it goes

Q:wave:

Yes, the comm can get nasty. The worst is the divots it develops around the slots in the face.

I race twice a week and cut my motor after every other race night. I usually only have to take off 2 or 3 thousandths, unless there's a scratch. Eventually you run out of copper and have to get a new armature.

A comm stick will help a lot, and the motor will last longer than it will with regular cutting. But you'll lose a little performance due to the necking.

Is the damage on the brush housing from the outside or the inside?

Not going to make it down to Catalina anytime soon, but thanks for the invite.

Inside the housing, between the brush and housing, are what appears to be brush build up deposits. After using the comm stick, finger nail, and very fine sandpaper without it coming off I guess I'm looking a corrosion damage?

Weird. That's one I haven't seen before. Is it a copper endbell, or steel? Been running it through puddles?

Steel end bell. Got wet? Maybe. Moist salt air all around. I'm pretty good about keeping it clean, I thought. The motor is gone with the comm shot so I'm not worried about this motor but want to make sure I'm not having the same problem with my others. I'ii be checking all of them within the next day or two.

Thanks Dan
Bill

corrosion huh? that IS interesting.

i pulled my motors apart last night and cleaned them both up. i put soft brushes in as suggested but i noticed the brushes i took out of the Jaguar 17T had a slit cut into the side that contacts the comm. is that possibly for cooling? the brushes werent worn down Nearly as much as the ones i pulled out of the PhotonSpeed 20T. maybe they were a harder compound. i replaced them anyways.

everything went back together fine and it was a lot easier than i thought. it was late when i finished so i'll test them today with a fresh battery. recomendations for breaking in the new brushes?

Q

There's a lot of voodoo surrounding slots and holes and serrations and whatnot in brushes. Some of it is cooling, some of it is electrical, some of it is hooey. Take a look at Big Jim's Motor Black Book for details - someone (hankster?) posted a link in this thread a few days ago. It doesn't matter so much in mod, where you just get a lower wind if you want more power, but it's a big thing in stock racing.

If you're backyard bashing, don't worry about breaking in the brushes. If you really feel the need, run the motor without a pinion on it for a few minutes at very low throttle. The pros use a 2 or 3 cell pack or an adjustable power supply for this purpose.

Keep an eye on those soft brushes. They'll wear down a lot faster than the ones that came with your truck.

How were your comms, Q?