This was posted at Slot Car Illustrated's forum. The two people in the discussion are two of the top drivers on the site. TJet3 is an HO driver, where the very expensive controllers have become dominant. ElSecundo is one of the top 1/32 drivers in Italy, where they have been trying to regulate the controllers. Just a little background, there.




Quote:
Originally Posted by tjet3
We could talk about this until the cows come home. People who don't have one say it's an advantage, people with them know it's an advantage, only if you know how to use it. I have two Difalco Fanatics, one 10 band and a 15 band with the adjustable pots for each band. My reason for useing these is I use to race HO and we ran 5-6 different classes. So instead of carrying a bag of Parmas around you only need one for all classes. You add up the price of a bag of Parmas compared to one Difalco kind of make sense to invest in only one controller, and I've used one for all the classes in HO and 1/32 scale. The BIG advantage is when useing a Parma or similar type controller first you have to find the right ohm controller to use with which car you're going to race, which depends on the type of power source you have and what voltage. You are adjusting yourself to the car. With a Difalco you are adjusting the car to you, big difference. You can put the best controller into the hands of a less skilled racer and it can actually hurt him because he's not use to it and doesn't know how to use it. It's all depends on what feels good to you.

See, this is fine as long as the controller doesn't mess with the linearity. A controller needs to be able to make the car move at the lowest end of the controller range. The controller needs to make the car driveable, and that's all. I don't have any problem with a controller being used to make a car driveable, it's the non-linearity that creates the issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rustymike2002
Excellent points Richard, a 10th place driver will be 10th no matter what they're using, so why not carry just one controller?


In Italy, we raced on a 177-foot track with lap times in the low 12 second range. The world champions completed 1499 laps, and won by 10 laps. If a non-linear controller provided the second-place team with just a 0.08 second per lap mechanical advantage, they would be world champs -- and the only way for the actual winners to counter this would be to spend the same money on the controller that gains them a 0.08 second advantage.

Everybody tunes cars for mechanical advantages, but everybody has that same opportunity. It takes money to keep pushing the electronic envelope. Is that what we want slot racing to be? We have some teenagers in our club -- should they feel the need to spend $250 on a controller to be able to drive with the other guys?

Also, tuning the car is fair game, but what the non-linear controller does is it effectively tunes the electrical circuit, which is what I'd consider to be track infrastructure. Should we allow advantages for individuals who modify the track infrastructure?

1:32 racing is in its infancy, and we're in the unique position to be able to set the tone we want so that we don't fall into the same traps that slot racers fell into in the 60's. One of the biggest traps was that costs for racing toy cars got way out of control. Controllers are high dollar items, but if we send the message that we don't want controllers that electronically make up for our lack of driving skill, then we can keep that particular cost down.

Tom

I confess that I have flip-flopped on the controller issue more times than a politician running for office as it applies to 1/24 scale racing.

At one time, I felt that the controller should be regulated for the entry-level classes just as the motors are to keep expenses down. But today, I have decided that if a controller helps someone driver better, then everyone has a better racing experience because there are fewer de-slots.

The bottom line is - - as stated in the quote above - - a tenth place driver is still going to be a tenth place driver.

If the 1/32 crowd decides to regulate the controllers used, then to avoid being hypocritical you would have to dictate that everyone use a particular ohm controller in a particular class .... not just resistor versus electronic. Because if you're going to allow guys to carry a "bag full of Parma" controllers you might as well allow guys to carry one Difalco.

By the way, you can pick up a used (not abused) 10-band Difalco on<a href="http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-1751-2978-71/1?AID=5463217&PID=1606754&mpre=http%3A//www.ebay.com"> eBay!</a> from time to time for between $125 and $150 as guys upgrade to 15-band Difalcos or 3rd Eye Controllers ($$$). Or, you can get a new Cold Fusion (a Difalco clone from South America) from Buddy at Slot Car Speedway & Hobbies for about $175 - - even $140 if he catches them on sale from the distributor. (Just remember to find out how Speedy has the track wired. Most Difalco controllers come from the factory as a positive ground, but can be easily converted.) New Parma controllers run about $52 retail. It could easily be argued that one quality controller is a better value than needing to own three or four resistor controllers.

Either way, it makes for a fun philosophical discussion.

Actually that wasn't Erik that posted the quote. I posted it Erik is at the College today.
The electronic controlers are still hard for many people to afford. Cost is what killed 1/24 in the 70s and then again in the 90s. I wouldn't like to see it happen again.

Tom

One discussion regarding controllers that seemed to make sense to me was to allow any controller on road courses and the same basic controller for all for ovals. In other words you switch lanes but the controller stays on ovals. Believe me for Ho racing having one controller for all classes is great. I remember having as many as 8 or 9 turbos to take to a race to cover all classes. I don't know if 1/32 nd is that diverse but usually when someone makes the controller commitment they are going to attend more races. Also regarding cost I'm surprised team racing hasn't become more popular. That way 1 car and one contrller per team is cost effective. Same with IROC.

Actually that wasn't Erik that posted the quote. I posted it Erik is at the College today.
The electronic controlers are still hard for many people to afford. Cost is what killed 1/24 in the 70s and then again in the 90s. I wouldn't like to see it happen again.

Tom
Tom,

My apology, sir. :( I typed faster than my brain could process the screen name. I will go back and make the appropriate edit.

A good quality controller does make a difference when it's in the hands of a good quality driver. But it's not a necessity. A couple of years ago (maybe 3), Big Al Montoro won the GTP class at the 1/24 Nats using a Parma resistor type controller. (Al drives with his thumb by the way.) Just proves that it's the driver more than the controller.

Still .... I'm not sure I want to go back to my Cox plunger-type controller.

Rollin

From what I understand, HO is a lot different from slot cars in this regard. I've used both a 25 and 15 ohm controller, the difference to me is negligible. The 15 ohm seems a tad bit touchier, but other than that it's not really that different. I've stuck with a good old Parma Turbo 25 ohm controller in all classes, and it's served me well. Set the car up to match the controller and you're good. I set my cars up to dive into turns, the 25 ohm works well with this. You go in hot, coast through the turn, and gas it coming out, and it works its way back up a little easier than the 15 ohm. This makes for some nice, smooth racing that helps keep laps consistent.


The biggest issue, however, is not so much the sensitivity as the things like line dressers and "coast controllers". The issues that bypass track electrical control, as mentioned above, give an edge that other controllers - even a sack full of Parmas - cannot match. This is especially true on a track that might have less than perfect current flow. On top of that, one thing I saw on an HO controller's stats was a "coast control". Basically, you could set the car to have a minimum electric current running to it, so that even if you let off the trigger the car is going at a set minimum speed. This is more of an advantage than you think - the car is smoother in its transitions and never comes to a complete stop. These things are now found in other controller. Brake adjustment, all that kind of stuff is crazy (though I like the idea I saw on one site of having brake adjustment built into the driver stand for each driver to set if they want). Just leave it with the trigger-and-go, whatever ohms you want.

I guess you just have to try one. I fought it for years... just convert to the dark side and enjoy. They are so smooth feeling its night and day different from the best resistor type controller. I would think the 1/32nd track would be harder on resistors than a 1/24th track only because you have so many on/offs and I'm sure there is alot of riding in the middle bands for new guys. I dont even know why this would be an issue, I know some of the guys are using Professor Motor controllers which are elec and cost only a little less than a Difalco.The Difalco is made in the USA and if there is any issue with it down the road it can be fixed. The cost is what it is...
If anyone wants one let Speedy know, if his distributors dont carry them he will contact me and I will get them for him.

Buddy H

I've got one of those Parma Turbos. Anyone got some tips on cleaning a resistor and keeping it that way? :confused:

Carefully sand the face of the resistor on some 600 or higher grit sandpaper.
Glue the sandpaper to a piece of glass,this will give you a very flat smooth face on the resistor,and a little 99% rubbing alcohol usually will clean them up afterwards.
Wingless Wonder,that'd probably be my track yer talking about,lol.
It's got everything wired right into the track itself,coast/brakes/choke/inline resistance/full power bypass and blast relays etc.,are on every lane,i did this years ago,to basically quiet the uproar when i bought my first Difalco,and the boys with the resistor controllers were unhappy,so i made them happy ;)
All these options can be added to almost any track,and probably won't cost anymore then a topline electronic controller

Thanks for the help, Hornet! :cool:

Wingless Wonder,that'd probably be my track yer talking about,lol.
It's got everything wired right into the track itself,coast/brakes/choke/inline resistance/full power bypass and blast relays etc.,are on every lane,i did this years ago,to basically quiet the uproar when i bought my first Difalco,and the boys with the resistor controllers were unhappy,so i made them happy ;)
All these options can be added to almost any track,and probably won't cost anymore then a topline electronic controller

That sounds pretty cool. I was actually refering to these:
http://www.slotcarcorner.com/store/cpanel/custom_panel.asp
(Scroll to the bottom)

I guess you just have to try one. I fought it for years... just convert to the dark side and enjoy. They are so smooth feeling its night and day different from the best resistor type controller. I would think the 1/32nd track would be harder on resistors than a 1/24th track only because you have so many on/offs and I'm sure there is alot of riding in the middle bands for new guys. I dont even know why this would be an issue, I know some of the guys are using Professor Motor controllers which are elec and cost only a little less than a Difalco.The Difalco is made in the USA and if there is any issue with it down the road it can be fixed. The cost is what it is...
If anyone wants one let Speedy know, if his distributors dont carry them he will contact me and I will get them for him.

Buddy H

That's not the point. The point isn't whether it's smoother or not for someone. Too many of those controllers allow you to affect electric flow and other essentials of the track, which is a bad thing on a track with just one power supply to power all the lanes. While those of us without these gizmos get fluctuating power, especially when people come off and are then put back on, the person with the controller keeps a regular amount of power at all times. Then there's that coast thing, which gives a huge advantage on turns with a lot of tracks. The solution isn't for people to go buy their own expensive controllers (and, in most cases, they are too expensive for the 1/32 guys), it's to make sure no one's using something that gives them such a big advantage and messes around with the track itself to give them an advantage. If you're suggesting that Speedy buy four controllers and hook them up to the track for us all to use, that's fine. But having three or four guys with them and no one else? That won't work. I understand 1/24 ended up getting to be an "arms race" of sorts, see who has the most money to buy the most toys, the most tools, the best equipment. That's not what 1/32 is about though. These cars are, indeed, RTR right out of the case. True the tires, add a magnet or two, and put them on the track. No replacing motors, gears, wheels, axles, anything. Sure, there's some 1/32 stuff like 1/24, but mostly 1/32 is for the average guy, who doesn't want to have to know all kinds of stuff to have his car be competitive with the other guys. Throw in controllers with lots of fancy stuff to give people an edge, and it degenerates real fast and suddenly you face the demise of 1/32 in the area. I suppose the 1/24 would benefit from the guys who were playing with those hot controllers and all, but that'd be a few guys added to one scale and the other going extinct. What good does that do? No, just take the controller out of the equation, except those ones that only adjust their ohms. I can understand that.

Let me put it this way. At HP we have just one person with a DiFalco controller. The fastest car beside his is a Clarion R390 with the V12/3 21.5K motor in it, ran a 4.103s so far (might have been a touch faster). Behind that, the faster so far has just dipped into the low 4.2s range (a surprising difference, but torque seems to be king if you can handle it). He's using a Sauber with a regular V12/2 25K motor (the one with the lower torque). Now, granted ,I think he cut out most of the interior and glued his driver to the dashboard, but even that reduction in weight on a Slot.it does not explain his turning a 3.96s lap after about three laps of running it Sunday. The car looks stock for the most part to me. The difference? He's playing with that control and adjusting it the whole time, keeping power and changing its handling characteristics. That's good for a 0.14s difference. Check the recent race results, you'll notice that Sauber on top of the Prototype class by bunches of laps, even when the axle pops out of the front (granted, it helps that for him we actually stop the race to let him fix the car, whereas most of the rest of us have had to watch the race continue while we fix our car). The guy's done a lot of HO, so he knows how to work that thing, and it is, indeed, a huge difference. A tenth of a second a lap will quickly build up.

Unless there is something drastically different in a 1/32 power supply and a 1/24 power supply or a 1/32 electronic controller and a 1/24 electronic controller ..... the controller shouldn't effect the overall track power in any way. That would be like saying my lane is slow because the guy next to me is using a 25ohm controller while I'm using a 7ohm controller

It merely manages how the power is sent to the car.

Any controller that would change track voltage to adjoining lanes would be illegal in all forms of toy-car racing.

Don't let the fancy stick psych you out. If Big Al Montoro can win GTP at the Nats with a Parma 2 ohm ..... you can win with a resistor-style stick at HP.

Unless there is something drastically different in a 1/32 power supply and a 1/24 power supply or a 1/32 electronic controller and a 1/24 electronic controller ..... the controller shouldn't effect the overall track power in any way. That would be like saying my lane is slow because the guy next to me is using a 25ohm controller while I'm using a 7ohm controller

It merely manages how the power is sent to the car.

Any controller that would change track voltage to adjoining lanes would be illegal in all forms of toy-car racing.

Don't let the fancy stick psych you out. If Big Al Montoro can win GTP at the Nats with a Parma 2 ohm ..... you can win with a resistor-style stick at HP.

Now, see, there's the rub... it manages how power goes to the car. Scalextric actually warns you on their site that you should have a power supply for each lane, otherwise power will change depending on how many cars are on the track. These controllers make sure you have consistent power, which means none of the problems the other cars are having.

I'm cool with a resistor-style controller, I just think they should all be simple handles with nothing more than a sensativity dial (for those who don't want multiple controllers but want more than one setting of ohms). It's really up to the track owner, though. I don't want to see things degenerate into who has the most money for things.

Wingless Wonder somebodies fed you a bunch of crap,a power surge still affects a "E" controller the same as a resistor controller,unless you've got a capicator inline between the controller and power source,and anybody can do that to any controller

All of the DeFalco controls I have seen have a linedresser in their hook up wires. Most slotcar racers don't have the technical knowledge to modify their controlers. I can, but most can't. Many Slot racers can't even make a good solder conection, and they don't care. They just want to race.

By the way I have an electronjc controler, that doesn't have the line dresser. I have driven a DiFalco and it has a hugh advantage over the PM control I own, or my Parma controlers, but for the over $300 that the DiFalco retails for it should. It just seems to defeet the idea of controling cost by limiting the cars if we allow ever more exspensive controlers. We might as well go back to the days when we ran Grp7s with ever increasing prices for motor and custom chassis. I was selling chassis for over $300 in the seventies, and Bob Emmets, and a few others were getting more than I was. Bob Green the Stuebes Kamen and several others were getting as much as $250-$400 for custom wind motors with trued cans,trued end bell custom fitted magnets that were matched trued and precision spaced. Even wheels and tyres were bring dynamic balanced We killed slot car racing back then with those prices.
I'm just afraid the controler war is going to do it again. The E controlers just keep going up in price, and it looks to me that if you are to compete with them you will have to buy one your self.

They do,and here i thought it was a transistor.
If your idea of a linedressing cap is a transistor great,but they hardly have the abilitly to absorb a voltage spike.
This one i know for a fact,my Difalco still has power surges.
3 cars going into a corner all let off at the same time will surge the 4th car dramatically even on very good tracks with very good controllers,takes alot bigger cap than what's in a Difalco to absorb the voltage spike created by 3 extra little generators.
That little linedressing cap as you call it,is # DD550 Power Transistor,got one sitting on my parts board :thumbsup:

A power transister has one purpose to make sure yor always have max power(ie a line dresser). That is why they need the heat sink, because they are controling the power available.

All this talk about Difalco controllers got me looking into them. Better power to your car, adjustable power, adjustable brakes, sensitivity, coast, everything, circuit protection, working brakes without brake post, it just goes on. :D That's some good stuff. I can set my car to the power I'm comfortable with, let it coast through the turns, tune down the braking to ease the shift, and make sure I have the sensitivity I need. Looks like I'll be laying down a paycheck on one of these bad boys to keep up with things. I don't know how long I'll be able to run it though, but if I go into HO I'm set with a controller. :thumbsup: :jest:

Maybe Santa will bring you one?

All this talk about Difalco controllers got me looking into them. Better power to your car, adjustable power, adjustable brakes, sensitivity, coast, everything, circuit protection, working brakes without brake post, it just goes on. :D That's some good stuff. I can set my car to the power I'm comfortable with, let it coast through the turns, tune down the braking to ease the shift, and make sure I have the sensitivity I need. Looks like I'll be laying down a paycheck on one of these bad boys to keep up with things. I don't know how long I'll be able to run it though, but if I go into HO I'm set with a controller. :thumbsup: :jest:


And you will have plenty of options without carrying a "bag full of Parmas" to the races. And for less money than a "bag full of Parmas."

If you want to save a little coin (and reasonably capable of following a wiring diagram), you can order the circuit board ($109 for the 1/24 model) and a Do It Yourself kit ($32). Now, just recycle a set of Parma grips into a factory-fresh Difalco. Go ahead and splurge and pick up a Kelly Trigger while you're shopping. Very ergonomic.

Or, keep an eye on ebay. There was a slightly used Difalco HO controller in an auction this week.

There is so much I could say but I'm holding back. This whole thing is really about cost.
If you're suggesting that Speedy buy four controllers and hook them up to the track for us all to use, that's fine. But having three or four guys with them and no one else? That won't work.
I understand 1/24 ended up getting to be an "arms race" of sorts, see who has the most money to buy the most toys, the most tools, the best equipment. That's not what 1/32 is about though. These cars are, indeed, RTR right out of the case. True the tires, add a magnet or two, and put them on the track. No replacing motors, gears, wheels, axles, anything.
Don't even kid your self...

I would not think there would be any power issues at HP. When I talked to Speedy he wired it like most all commercial 1/24th tracks and the power supply has pleny of amps. On 1/24th tracks you do not get power surges if other cars are on or off power so I dont see how HP would either.

Guys-- the sensation of power surging on a decently powered track is more a product of not enough jumpers. In ho many of our tracks are continuous rail with mayby one joining section, so when we first used these we thought our power surging problems were over. WHAT WE LEARNED WAS THAT THE POWER SURGE THAT EFFECTS ELECTRONIC AS WELL AS RESISTOR CONTROLLERS WAS MORE OF A FACTOR OF NUMBER OF JUMPERS AND TIME SPENT IN THE AFFECTED ZONE THAN ANYTHING ELSE. The answer to cut power surges is to reduce the possible number of feet you have to travel before you hit the next jumper zone. In other wods if you have a 65 foot track try to have 8 to 10 jumpers (every 6 or 7 feet) or more for a longer track. If someone dumps, you want to spend as little time as possible in the affected zone. Doesn't matter what type of controllers you are using then. You will reduce the "feel" of surges the more jumpers you have. For example: If you have a hundred foot track with 2 jumpers you have 3 zones of approx 33 feet you could be affected in. Adding more jumpers reduces the possible area size a car could get caught in and be affected for less time there by reducing the chance of feeling a power surge.

I would not think there would be any power issues at HP. When I talked to Speedy he wired it like most all commercial 1/24th tracks and the power supply has pleny of amps. On 1/24th tracks you do not get power surges if other cars are on or off power so I dont see how HP would either.

Neorules spotted one of the problems - no jumpers. And check Scalextric's website. They tell you right there that if you have one power supply for all your lanes, then other tracks will suddenly get more power when a person falls off a lane, which could result in an unexpected burst of speed heading into a turn. This is often the cause of multi-car wrecks around the track. We've already found a number of bad connections, dead tracks, and so on. You don't want to stop at certain spots on the track because you can't get your car started again. This is what you have to deal with when you have a 1/32 track, and it results in "power surges".


Oh, and i'm not kidding myself on the 1/32 cars. Sure you also want to do oil, grease, com drops, and break in the motor. All of these are simple things, no extra cost for new parts. The only thing we're allowed to change are magnets and tires, that's it. Don't believe me? Ask for a copy of the rules.

Yes this is mostly about high cost for controlers.

Here's the full thing from Scaley's FAQ:

Q. How and why do I want separate power supplies for each lane?
A. To begin with, powering each lane separately requires a transformer for each lane, and that in itself, is highly desirable for supplying the amperage needed to run strong-magnet cars, such as Fly cars or Scalextric cars equipped with after market magnets. A single pack for two lanes really does not offer enough amperage for two strong-magnet cars or two cars with hop-up motors. Neither car will deliver its full performance. More important, powering each lane separately ensures that the power going to each car will be uniform at all times and can't be affected by what the other cars are doing. Where two or more cars are powered by the same source and there is not enough amperage to go around the cars fight each other to get enough power. When one car deslots or stops the other one gets a blast of amperage that can send it off the track if it happens at a critical deceleration point (and it always seems to). With a separate power circuit to each lane the power to each car will not vary, even if each lane's power supply does not give quite the amperage the cars' motors would like. Each car may be a little slower than it would otherwise be, but its behavior will always be the same and the driver gets no nasty surprises. This makes driving to your car's limit much easier and more pleasant. The easiest way to accomplish this is to plug two Scalextric #C977 power packs into the wall and into your power base (#C8217). With any multi-transformer setup, if you want to be able to turn the power to all the lanes on and off to start and stop races, plug all the transformers into an outlet strip with an on/off switch and use the switch for your master power control. If you want the transformers and the outlet strip tucked away under the table out of sight and out of easy reach you can plug the outlet strip into an extension cord with an in-line switch and route the cord to place the switch in a convenient location. To take maximum advantage of your track power upgrade with strong-magnet and other high amp-draw cars you also need controllers matched to the cars' requirements. In general, the more amperage a car draws the lower the desired resistance rating of the controller (measured in ohms) will be. Scalextric sets come with 70-ohm controllers, which are fine for the cars that come in the sets. With the hotter cars you will need 25 to 45 ohm controllers to achieve maximum control. Layouts and tables.

We have *one* power supply at HP, but four lanes. That's three fewer than Scaley suggests. It might cost a bit more to have the extra power supplies, but it's worth it as your racers will enjoy the racing a lot more.

I did not and will not read the whole SE thing. 3 SE transformers... 1 real power supply would be better. Power surges come from not enough amps for all the cars... so all the cars are fighting to get all the amps they can use, when 1 comes off then there is more power avalible for the running cars so the motors get it which makes a surge. Now if you have way more amps than the cars can use there would be no surge because all cars already have all the power they can use.
There maybe other issues that I dont know about since I have never turned a lap at HP but when I talked to Speedy it sounded like he rewired it like most comercial tracks.
By the way I have run my track with just 1 75 amp power supply and every thing was just fine. No power surge and the 1/24th motors pull more amps. I have 2 now but only for back up purposes, there was no speed difference at all when it was added.
I will probably come by tonight to check out the racing.

" ..... We have *one* power supply at HP, but four lanes. That's three fewer than Scaley suggests. It might cost a bit more to have the extra power supplies, but it's worth it as your racers will enjoy the racing a lot more."

Erik,

Just a quick question out of pure old-fashioned curiosity ....

If you have multiple power supplies (one for each lane) ..... Do the Scalextric power supplies come with a voltage or amp regulator to insure that each lane has the exact same power by "dialing in" the same number on each?

And, what power are you getting from the one power supply with one car on the track versus four cars on the track?

Rollin

Erik,

Just a quick question out of pure old-fashioned curiosity ....

If you have multiple power supplies (one for each lane) ..... Do the Scalextric power supplies come with a voltage or amp regulator to insure that each lane has the exact same power by "dialing in" the same number on each?

And, what power are you getting from the one power supply with one car on the track versus four cars on the track?

Rollin

The Scaley PS's don't let you change them, but if you use a different PS like an MG (the one they're using) or a Pyramid, you can set all lanes to the same power. I've been told the amps is the difference, the motors can draw more amps. It's why times are generally slower in the race or with multiple cars in practice than single-car practicing.

Buddy gave me a good deal on one-----------Is it New Years yet.

Secrets are meant to be shared.

" .... My suggestion would be to axe all controllers with a *retail* greater than $120 (the top end Professor Motor controllers), and maybe let them into the open class, but only because that's the open class, and the other classes had restrictions on them to prevent this kind of spiraling cost thing."


Erik

Your suggestion would make building a Difalco legal.

You can buy three different Difalco modules for less than $120.

You can buy the near-top-of-the-line DD230-15 - "E"MOTION FANATIC MODULE for $116 and have an adustable pot for each band.

But I would recommend the DD225-15 - "E"MOTION PLUS CONTROLLER MODULE for $109. It's the step-up from entry-level DD229 ($89) and has Pro Brake Rheostat with off position. It even has auxiliary holes for Choke Bypass or mush button switches.

Anyone that has a used-up Parma Turbo can buy the module and make an easy conversion and stay within your $120 spending limit.

It's progress. And in this case, it makes racing better for everyone if it's easier to keep the car in the slot.

Erik

Your suggestion would make building a Difalco legal.

You can buy three different Difalco modules for less than $120.

A: The Price cap would be for a RTR controlers retail as quoted by the Manufacturer of the controler, not what you can build one for.

You can buy the near-top-of-the-line DD230-15 - "E"MOTION FANATIC MODULE for $116 and have an adustable pot for each band.

But I would recommend the DD225-15 - "E"MOTION PLUS CONTROLLER MODULE for $109. It's the step-up from entry-level DD229 ($89) and has Pro Brake Rheostat with off position. It even has auxiliary holes for Choke Bypass or mush button switches.

Anyone that has a used-up Parma Turbo can buy the module and make an easy conversion and stay within your $120 spending limit.

A: Not all racers will feel they have the ability to do this.

It's progress. And in this case, it makes racing better for everyone if it's easier to keep the car in the slot.

A: Not if it means that the racer with the money to spend on ever higher priced controlers gets an advantage over the ones that can't. This will just lead to a lot of people leaving the hobby. IT has happened before and if we let the cost keep going up out of control it will happen again.

All the track power talk makes me glad I just race on the track, not fix it. :thumbsup:

I will check out Ebay tonight and see what I might be able to pick up. I don't feel comfortable trying to rig up a controller, that could get ugly. :freak: I also don't want to spend too much, because if I find out later I can't use it because people feel it gives me an advantage, I don't want to be out too much money. I'll ask the other drivers what they think. I'm looking at HO stuff and it looks like they use these controllers all the time, so I can get some use out of it that way at least. ;)

Go with what smokingHOs said in the results topic. Ask the drivers what they think of it. See if enough people agree. You have a guy who always uses this controller? Get him to try something else, maybe a Parma Turbo. He might enjoy it and agree to leave the DiFalco behind without any disagreements. People can be more reasonable than they're often given credit for, just talk to them. Talking is good. I recommend open conversation to all racers. It will make your experience that much more fun. :thumbsup: :wave:

" .... I will check out ebay tonight and see what I might be able to pick up. ...." . :thumbsup: :wave:

As you hunt ......

Difalco HO controllers are different than their other controllers and shouldn't be used for other cars.

A: Not if it means that the racer with the money to spend on ever higher priced controlers gets an advantage over the ones that can't. This will just lead to a lot of people leaving the hobby. IT has happened before and if we let the cost keep going up out of control it will happen again.


Tom,

Erik set an arbitrary budget of $120. That seems reasonable to me.

Anyone capable of following directions and operating a soldering iron can build their own Difalco for less than that!!

So .... if money is the ONLY issue .... and you're afraid of a most-money-wins arms race (which I can understand) ..... then that issue is over. :drunk: !

If racers are already spending $120 on a Professor Motor controller (and other racers have no problem with that); then why do you have a problem with people spending $89 - $116 on a Difalco module? :confused:

All this because I said I ordered one- Cancel the order.Wonder Rags I've got a present for you- it will be there in your favorite spot.

:cool:

I like the knobs on the controllers...

As you hunt ......

Difalco HO controllers are different than their other controllers and shouldn't be used for other cars.

Thanks for that, I'd hate to be using the wrong controller!

All this because I said I ordered one- Cancel the order.Wonder Rags I've got a present for you- it will be there in your favorite spot.

Um, seriously, dude, you mentioned you ordered one late in this topic. The topic occured prior to you saying you were going to order one. What is wrong with you? Do you even race? We don't say things about other people's cars unless they actually break the rules here. You think a Ninco is better, buy a Ninco. Think something else is tops? Go for it. I can understand a thing about expensive electro-gizmo controllers with bells and whistles that no one else has. I feel little bit of awkwardness trying to get one myself, and if it's turned down I'll be okay with the decision. We make these rules to keep everything fair and all the racers happy. I see in the rules for your track that Ninco cars are legal. That makes it hard to say anything about them, I think. I like both types of cars, and I find that they are both fast. Scalextric makes some of their cars a little too heavy but they're solid and can absorb more hits than Ninco. But what do I know? :rolleyes:

This discusion makes me think you need to look into rules about controllers. Maybe we all should? We have all kinds of fanciful rules about what cars you can use, what gears, motors, tires, traction, all that stuff, even wheels for some tracks it sounds like. But who thinks about the things controlling the cars? If my controller can override the resistor and give me an extra surge, is that really any different from putting a better motor in my car? :confused:

Just keep the racing good and don't fly off the track! :wave: :cool:

You can beat me in slots- great. I don't care if you do.It fun when the cars are able to be compaired fairly equal. If a controller is the big difference and it cost 120.00 so what.If someone limits a controller to cost and you can get a controller and build it yourself for the price limits you set that's fine with me.If anyone disagrees with the Wonder Rags they are wrong?My ideas are just that mine. I didn't talk with anyone about them. You keep on bringing your expertise on everything- You like the Ninco -I don't. You like Slot-it's -I don't.You tell everyone about the price things should be. Just compair what you wrote about the friday night races. The three top cars on the same lap and feet apart. Now compair the controllers used.If those contollers were such a big advantage why were the top three cars just feet from each other?Just a few laps down was the little kid with a Parma and he was giving everyone a fit.

Now that I've said that it really is time to end the junk.You can have at it all you want.Have a Merry Christmas and a Happier New Year.

Why *do* they make it double barreled?

Bill this reminds me of the rant you posted on the Hobby World forum because you lost the ROAR election. Can't you just accept that other people might be right about things. We have managed to have a civil discussion with everyone else about these subjects. Why can't you?

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL
Tom and Family

By the way, let me give some background for people who don't know what's been going on at the track in terms of rules and such (this includes Bill, who hadn't been at the track since August).

I can't remember what came first - the 911 or the Mosler. So I'll start with the 911. The Scaley box set with the two Porsche 911's was marketed as stock, it had a better motor but it was stock. People felt it had too much of an advantage, and an argument was made based on cost and availability (though these factors were about the same as any cars in Scaley sets). They were deregulated. Okay, fine. To make everyone happy and keep the idea of equality going, we relegated them to the stables (though they come out for testing sometimes).

Then there was the NSR Mosler. Here's where we have a comparison like the DiFalco controllers. The NSR Mosler is actually cheaper in comparison to other cars than the comparison between controllers. The car was built with NSR parts, those are some top quality parts. The car was super-fast, because it was built with the best parts in mind. It was stock, so it fit the rules. However, people used the price and availability arguments to ask for it to be deregulated. Okay, it was set aside, though it has come out a couple of times to run against Doc's modified contraptions. Hey, no problems, it's what people wanted, and the car did seem to have an advantage because it was a real racer's car.

The 911's are kind of a bad comparison, they came with a different motor than standard models of their type. I think it might be fun to have a "Porsche 911 Supercharged" class some time using other cars that have had the 20K motor installed - even footing for everyone. The Mosler, though, provides a good case. It's a pro driver's equipment, and we're not talking about pro drivers at the track.

I don't like the idea of limiting people, but let's get real. Most of us see this as a competitive hobby. We all want to win. But it's still just a hobby. So it's best to keep things as close as possible, keep things within a close set of parameters. Hence the removal of the Mosler, or the "supercharged" 911's. When you have Scaleys vs. NINCOs, or Scaleys vs. Slot.it's, things are nice and close, that's how you want to keep them. I'm not even the biggest fan of the PM controllers, but all they have is sensitivity and brake. Maybe drop that price range to $80 and cancel out the PMs with brakes? Then you have everyone with a simple controller that only uses a resistor/sensitivity to control the car. But even then, that doesn't work. People will find ways around it, like the idea Rollin posted of using a kit to get around the price cap. So then, go simple: No controller with any modifiable abilities other than sensivity. And there you have it. Open the open class to let any kind of controller in, and people still get to use their expensive controllers. I think that's a happy compromise, and no one has any kind of potential advantage from fancy toys on their controller. That means no one else feels pressured to get one of those controllers.

Sounds fair enough, I'd think.

Buddy and Rollin, thanks for the interesting convo/debate guys. I think open discussions, even debates, are the best way to move ideas forward in any hobby. As long as they stay clean, no one should feel wronged, and in the end you have a better result, right?

MERRY CHRISTMAS
Tom

Difalco also makes a adjustable brake addon for the Parma Turbo contorller. It sounds very easy to install. Retails for $19.50 then everyone could have adj brakes, if they want them.

My $.02 on rules.
1. The Track owner should make the rules.
2. The Rules should be simple as posible.
3. Fun should be the focus.
4. See 1 - 3 again.

The track owner talks to every single racer, one on one. Believe it or not they know what is going on. Its in there best interest to have fair rules based on everyones imput but in the end they have to make tuff decisions some times. I'm sure its nothing personal they are just using there best judgement. Its a better race when everyone is using the same rules.

Merry Christmas to all and I hope everyone has a winning 2007 :wave:

Buddy; I agree with what you just posted. No single racer should influence the rules, The track owner must set rules that are fun for the majority of racers, not just what is wanted by one person. One person cannot be allowed to get rules that have been working changed just because he doesn't like a particular brand of cars, or only likes one brand and wants everyone to be forced to run his chosen brand.

If DiFalcos are going to be the way to go, well I will just build ones with all the best for Erik and myself, and then Erik will be even harder to beat. But this will hurt a lot of racers that don't have the technical ability that we have. They will have to pay the high price of the RTR control to be able to compete, and then they will have to try to figure out how to operate them. I wish we could avoid that, but it appears the E-Controllers are here to stay so we will join in with the use of them.

Again Have a MERRY CHRISTMAS! :thumbsup:
Tom