Im sure this has been addressed before but im looking for a quick answer. Which side is the heavyier spring supposed to go on in the rear. If im running a blue and a silver whats side is the blue "usually" go on.

R/S shock

I run the heavier spring on the Left side shock.

RC

Im sure this has been addressed before but im looking for a quick answer. Which side is the heavyier spring supposed to go on in the rear. If im running a blue and a silver whats side is the blue "usually" go on.


I find it varies with track conditions, surface etc..
Generally a loose condition can be helped with a heavier r/s spring and a tight condition can be helped with a heavier l/s spring. So there is no correct spring on a specific side.


Doug P
Team CW

A left rear shock (battery side) on an rc car is the Right rear shock on a real car. Right rear side shock on rc car is a left shock on a real car. In certain cases a heavy RR is needed but more often than not your going to use the heavy on the lr

When you guy's change from equal springs to different rates on each side, do you run the same preload as you did with equal springs???

well, I have found more often than not, you will always want to run a little bit heavier LR(right side) spring. The common car today with carries just a tremendous amount of left side weight, 68%-70% left side weight. This type of packaging requires an larger amount of LR weight. The large amount of pre-load it takes so adjust the wedge to these numbers when running these " new day 4-cell cars" you will have to add so many turns to the Rt side shock that it will in fact be "stiffer" than it's heavier counter-part. This make's a false judgement about chassis tuning. As to why, some very fast guys will contend that a heavier LR spring would loosen a car based on a track feel. What I think it actually does is let the front end work which is really where any fast car starts.

Study front end geometry and the affects of different configurations and you can get fast at r/c racing. Even better is race some TC and learn the affects of even minor changes have there, where suspension is much more sensitive to change.

And this is no means trying to discourage people from racing oval or even oval primarily. But sometimes a different reference point give clarity to problems/solutions to handling problems.

What people fail to realize it the, basic general knowledge, effort, hours and experience to be "fast". For every, mint set-up, dial car or victory you have a hundred failures. When people say "stock" anything is a good entry-level class" is wrong. If you are lucky enough to have a "novice" class, where speed really doesn't matter is okay. But to ask a "skilled novice" to move to even "stock" is ridculous. It is hard to to integrate new oval racers. If you run road course you have 10 to 14-15 corners to let the leader by and if off-road you rarely crash in the groove, but yet you are only a few laps down that equal 1100 ft, but you on a oval you are 8 laps down but only 800ft behind the leader. Most people dont' think that level. But equality mentality is what our culture is all about.

My main point, somewhere in there, is controdictary "idea" and "feeling" lead to frustration with oval racing therefore, declining turnouts.

Thanks

blue on rr silver on lr

JET, I would set the weights back to were they were with the equal springs and go from there. If you were running two blue sides with 12.5 oz left rear, and went to a gold right rear with out changing your preload, you'll wind up having 13.0 oz on the left rear or so. you want to change to collars to adjust weight back to 12.5 to start with. the car will still be on the tighter side then with the two blue springs and the same static weights. If you put a gold on the left rear and leave the blue on the right, still adjust the weights back to the same. But the car will rotate better then the two blues.

Generally when I change one side spring I take both shocks off the car and reset the preload on both shocks to my starting point (just taking up all the slack). Then put them back on the car and reset the tweak. This takes about 3 extra minutes, but I think it helps you stay consistent.

I take for granted that guys reset the springs every time they change springs. But I suppose I should say that also.

I’m curious how much pre-load everyone starts with. I’ve seen some like me run very little adn other that try to run the collar in so that the spring does not have any slop at full pod travel.

Any thoughts?

With the shocks off the car I take all the slop out of mine. Personally I consider that to be no preload. I think if I had much slop in the collars with with the shocks off the car or pod at full travel I would be close to having the collar unscrewed in certain situations.

What I have always wondered about is the effect of changing one side spring versus changing both. For example, lets say I am running two blues. If I wanted to make the car tighter I could put a gold on the right and leave the blue on the left. Or I could make the car tighter by going to two silvers. What do people think the difference is in handling between the two scenarios. Is going to the gold right a finer change than going to the two silvers or will going to the gold tighten the car off the corner more while the two silvers tighten it everywhere?

Danny...just for clarification,, when you say LR spring, you are really talking about the spring on right side shock. Is that correct?

JET, I would set the weights back to were they were with the equal springs and go from there. If you were running two blue sides with 12.5 oz left rear, and went to a gold right rear with out changing your preload, you'll wind up having 13.0 oz on the left rear or so. you want to change to collars to adjust weight back to 12.5 to start with. the car will still be on the tighter side then with the two blue springs and the same static weights. If you put a gold on the left rear and leave the blue on the right, still adjust the weights back to the same. But the car will rotate better then the two blues.

Mike,
Help my pea brain understand this...I understand full size cars with each shock independent of each other...But our cars have a pod with a central pivot point, the springs actually work off each other so as you stated, if you have a heavier spring on one side, you need to increase the preload on the weaker spring to get the weights back. Now here's the tricky part, when you crank up the preload you actually make the spring "springier" (if thats a word) so that throws off your damping. Could the changing of the spring, change the handling because of the effect on the damping???
If you want a stiffer action on one side, shouldnt you change the shock angle???

Later, Bret
PS. Where in maine are you going next week???

When you guy's change from equal springs to different rates on each side, do you run the same preload as you did with equal springs???

I wouldn't.
Because if you are changing springs,
you are doing it to get a softer/stiffer spring rate.
If you do not weigh the car, to re set your wedge to where it was,
you are doing two things.
Changing wedge AND spring. So when the car does something different,
which did it? The spring change, or the wedge change...

If I was running say ~360g on the left rear, and change a spring from
a blue to a red, I'd do the change, and set the lr back to ~360g.
then you would know EXACTLY what the spring change does for you..
Tweek from there...

just my opinion :drunk:

Mike,
Help my pea brain understand this...I understand full size cars with each shock independent of each other...But our cars have a pod with a central pivot point, the springs actually work off each other so as you stated, if you have a heavier spring on one side, you need to increase the preload on the weaker spring to get the weights back. Now here's the tricky part, when you crank up the preload you actually make the spring "springier" (if thats a word) so that throws off your damping. Could the changing of the spring, change the handling because of the effect on the damping???
If you want a stiffer action on one side, shouldnt you change the shock angle???

Later, Bret
PS. Where in maine are you going next week???

Keep in mind that you should be adjusting both sides evenly. In other words you should not be preloading one spring to overcome the other spring. All you are doing is pivoting the pod just like if you had tweak screws inthe T-Bar like the old days.

Keep in mind that you should be adjusting both sides evenly. In other words you should not be preloading one spring to overcome the other spring. All you are doing is pivoting the pod just like if you had tweak screws inthe T-Bar like the old days.

You are so right!!

This plays a big part with having the right setup. :thumbsup:

Also, when talking about a certain weight on a wheel should be in percentage.
Not grams , oz or lbs.

That would be like talking about gearing and not knowing about the correct rollout. :confused:

Thanks, RPM...was going to mention that, as changing batteries (same brand, same mah) will affect weight in the car.

RPM, I doubt any of us are running much over 40.1 oz total car weight, and aren't too far off were we place are electrics. So just by saying 360g or 12.7 oz is good enough. I could see if if one guy is running a 45 oz car, stating percentage would be more accurate, but that would be the least of his concern if he was off .5 oz on the left rear.

Also, when talking about a certain weight on a wheel should be in percentage.
Not grams , oz or lbs.

That would be like talking about gearing and not knowing about the correct rollout. :confused:

Not if you are talking about working on your own car....
If you are asking someone for a setup, yes % is the more accurate answer.
Because of componant placement etc.
But when you are tuning your own, just using one wheel weight
is enough to check your setup, after you have established your baseline.
(providing you have not physically moved/added weight).

You guys are going to hate me for adding more confusion to this! Here goes..
First I'll tell you what I think (I'm not the fastest guy on the block so that said...) I equate shock/spring selection with tweak screw adjustments. Since the right tweak screw carries the weight of the batteries, I assume that the right spring has to be heavier. Some guys run no tweak some run heavier tweak. If you normally would have had no tweak in the car, then two equal springs should work. That said... Tweak screws are limited in effect because they are adjusting two equal springs (the T plate, which is symetrical in response and tension) . Springs add the variable that you can have not only two different spring rates, but you crank them up to different rates adding more variables into the equation. Typically I run a Blue RR and a Silver LR and I set them neutral (no preload and no slack) with the pod flat and co-planar to the chassis. Then I either turn both screws forward or backwards. That tightens one while loosening the other. Understand that I am no expert on this and that's why I run tweak screws on banked tracks. I invite anyone who really knows how to set up and properly adjust side shocks to address the issue. I would really like to know how to do it correctly.

Rick,

I wouldn't get hung up on anything being "correct". As long as you are consistent with your method it is correct. I bet if you talk to 5 "fast" guys you 'll get at least 3 different opinions, but the one commonality is that they'll consistently do the same thing everytime.

Yeah, That sounds about right. Consistency is key in any kind of racing.

Pat, are you saying that with the shocks off the car and fully extended, then you take all the free play out?

Not if you are talking about working on your own car....
If you are asking someone for a setup, yes % is the more accurate answer.
Because of componant placement etc.
But when you are tuning your own, just using one wheel weight
is enough to check your setup, after you have established your baseline.
(providing you have not physically moved/added weight).

I have seen guys weight there car with the body on or off.
With or without the transponder.
I seen guys fill there tank up with fuel and some not.

To say I have x amount of weight on this wheel is meaningless.
The percentage weight is a more accurate answer. :cool:

If were not all weighing the car race ready, then percent or oz measurment means nothing. If I tell you there's 40% left rear weight, why is that better then 14 oz, when you measure the car with the body off and I measure it race ready. Both those numbers are useless, unless your measuring it the same why I am.

Ok I have read this whole thing and I am really amazed at all the stuff being tossed around here. Dont mind me, Im a nobody, has been, used to be, may be again etc. but I am still going to throw in my two cents.

Who cares what everybody elses weight on each wheel is, who cares what everyone else is running for side springs other than a place to start. It was said earlier that we are all pretty close. All you care about is a cross weight percentage that makes your car work. When you get it on the scales and its ready to run with body on (it makes no sense to weigh it otherwise) your springs should have the slack out of them, then move your ballast, (dont forget to check your ride heights) then adjust your springs to get it dialed in. If you have to preload a spring more than 2 turns, you should be looking for a stiffer spring. You may even want to think about it inside of 2 turns but that is what I use. You want the least amount of preload that you can stand, because when you change to a stiffer spring it will give you the same effect. When you crank down on a side spring and it adds weight to a front wheel, what is happening to the front spring? Its compressing and preloading that also, yet we are not talking about those but we should. We now have a plethora of side springs at all kinds of different ratings available to choose from. There is no reason anymore to "make it work" because there is nothing else close to it, there are plenty. So figure out what works for you. If you keep running only what everybody else runs, you wont know if there is a better setup for your car. Do you know what you have on your car? Do you know what a blue spring is rated at? A gold spring? How do you compare one to the other without "feeling" it or by someone telling you its something? Take one of your scales and set your spring on it. Find a way of compressing it exactly 1/4 of an inch and the scale will give you a number. Do this for all your springs and now you have something to work with. Numbers that mean something to you, and can be used properly for adjusting the car correctly.

Food for thought thats all, right or wrong, we are all trying to achive the same thing.

Or you can disregard all this and just run a blue and a gold and just drive it aimlessly.

Speedy Pete, I agree. Except the part where we need to measure our own springs. The MFG tells us what rate the springs are. There all based off of the ASC side springs. I don't see any need to spend the time or money, repeating a test ASC or Murdock did already for us. I know each spring is slightly different but not enough to worry about. The only time I can see it being usefull is if you have an old spring in your box, you want to verify if it's still good. I'd rather go to the LHS and spend the $2 and get a new pair, and toss the old pair in the trash.

Speedy Pete,

Not quite sure what you mean when you say you can't believe what is being tossed around in this thread. It's a pretty decent thread. I don't think anyone was really saying you have to run a certain spring to be fast. It's been a good discussion of what side springs do and how various people measure tweak.

Anyway, on to what you said. First, I disagree that you need to scale your care with the body on. As long as you scale your car the same way each time it makes no difference how you do it. All it is doing is giving you a relative measurement. Doing it with the body on is a pain.

Also, you are over simplifying the spring rate and number of turns of tweak. Adding turns of tweak is not the same as going to a harder spring. If there was only one side spring on your car you'd be more correct. But with two springs there is more going on.

Thanks Mike. I sort of agree but like alot of old time racers we dont throw anything out. I just know that you can have a pile of springs from different manufacturers like crc or silva or anybody that dosent associate a number with it, and you should know what you have. The same goes for center shock springs and front springs. There is a mathamatical formula (as long as you know what it is made out of) to figure out the pounds per inch of compression. Here nor there I just brought it up because I hate how everyone gets caught up on color and not spring rating. Good point though if you dont know what it is, you can always throw it out and buy something that you do.

Now as far as weighing a car, yes its a pain to weigh it with the body on the car, but its essential to the total weight of the car and to see where it adds more weight and where it add less. If you want to weight it without then weight it once with, once without, subtract the difference and add those numbers to each wheel after a change. Also bodys can add "tweak" as you call it to a car. If you have to move that body post over 1/4 of an inch to get it to line up with the hole... you are putting stress somewhere that will change something else. Do what you want but I consider it good practice to weigh it with it on. Maybe you want to weigh it without the battery pack too if its just a relative measurement.

Last off I have no idea how you can say that "tweak" has nothing to do with spring rate. It has everything to do with it. I guess cranking down on that really soft spring to make it handle, instead of putting in a stiffer spring and loading it half as much to get the same effect is how you tune your car. What is "tweak" anyway? Its wedge or lack of wedge if you are running road course. What is wedge? Its cross weight. How do you adjust cross weight? You crank on a spring. What happens if you crank down alot on the spring to get the cross weight you want, and you compress it so much that you limit the movement of the spring? You have to put in a stiffer spring. Its not rocket science, but saying it isnt the same or related is just wrong. Every car on the road has two springs on the back.... not one.

Im not your enemy, again just my two cents. We can all learn here.

Now as far as weighing a car, yes its a pain to weigh it with the body on the car, but its essential to the total weight of the car and to see where it adds more weight and where it add less. If you want to weight it without then weight it once with, once without, subtract the difference and add those numbers to each wheel after a change. Also bodys can add "tweak" as you call it to a car. If you have to move that body post over 1/4 of an inch to get it to line up with the hole... you are putting stress somewhere that will change something else. Do what you want but I consider it good practice to weigh it with it on. Maybe you want to weigh it without the battery pack too if its just a relative measurement.

Last off I have no idea how you can say that "tweak" has nothing to do with spring rate. It has everything to do with it. I guess cranking down on that really soft spring to make it handle, instead of putting in a stiffer spring and loading it half as much to get the same effect is how you tune your car. What is "tweak" anyway? Its wedge or lack of wedge if you are running road course. What is wedge? Its cross weight. How do you adjust cross weight? You crank on a spring. What happens if you crank down alot on the spring to get the cross weight you want, and you compress it so much that you limit the movement of the spring? You have to put in a stiffer spring. Its not rocket science, but saying it isnt the same or related is just wrong. Every car on the road has two springs on the back.... not one.

Im not your enemy, again just my two cents. We can all learn here.

Sheesh calm down. LOL
The reason why almost no one (in the area of the country I race in) tweaks with the body on is that you aren't concerned with the actual weight on each tire. You are concerned with quantifying the changes you make. I generally do not change my body during the race day, which is why it is unecessary to factor it in. On the other hand I run many different battery packs which is why the battery does need to be in when I adjust tweak. I am concerned with knowing what changes I am making. If I want to add 10 grams I am still adding 10 grams whether the body is on or off.

As for your second paragraph you clearly did not read what I said. No where did I say spring rate and tweak were unrelated. That would be crazy. I said you oversimplified what is going on. Saying that you should go to a heavier spring whenever you have 2 rounds of tweak in the car is not taking into account everything that is going on. having 2 rounds of preload with a blue spring and X tweak is not nearly the same thing as having 0 rounds of preload with a gold spring and X tweak. There is more going on.

Reread what I said.

Every car on the road has two springs on the back.... not one.



Some Corvettes, Oldsmobiles, etc. utilize monoleaf rear suspensions....sorry, Pete - couldn't resist.

Some Corvettes, Oldsmobiles, etc. utilize monoleaf rear suspensions....sorry, Pete - couldn't resist.

Actually, Jason, monoleaf suspensions are single leaf on each side.
You're thinking of 'transverse' leaf spring, is what is on a Corvette...
And they act as two 'half springs'...

sorry... couldn't resist! ;)

Some Corvettes, Oldsmobiles, etc. utilize monoleaf rear suspensions....sorry, Pete - couldn't resist.

You are so right!! I wasnt really thinking about those fine oddballs you mentioned. When I think about stock cars..... they have 2 springs!

Got me! But Im allowed to call you a bozo now.


and simpkins simpkins simpkins.... Im not riled up at all. I did read what you said. Your words were "Adding turns of tweak is not the same as going to a harder spring". You also say I am oversimplifying it. I dont think I am and I dont want to repeat myself, so I wont... but just think about it. If you tweak your car you add load to a spring. If the spring is too soft, then you need to put a firmer one on. There has to be a way we come to a decision that a spring is too soft or hard, or else they would just make one spring with one rate and you would have to tweak your car with that. The heavier the spring is, the more that one turn of tweak effects it, the more weight moves around, thus the less tweak it needs to do the same job the softer spring did.

Im just saying that when you tweak your car, that thought should be in your mind. You should be thinking that a stiffer spring could be doing the same job with less effort.

Guys on here are asking which spring goes where. Blue on the left or the right? Im just telling them one way of figuring it out for themselves.... and the decision is completely based on tweak. I agree as you say that there is alot going on, but we should be making one change at a time, one turn at a time. So I just cant agree with the thought that adding turns of tweak has no dermination on if you should change springs or not.

Thats all.... Im not excited, just not understanding how you can say that.... thats all brother! And I was being fecious about weighing it without a battery pack, thats just stupid.

Go Dan!

I guess I should forfeit my ASE master cert. along with the L1! LOL...Way to be on top of things, Dan!

No P in the last name.

Yes, I said that adding turns of tweak is not the same going to a stiffere spring and that is correct. Going to a stiffer spring does effect tweak though and adding more preload does effect spring rate (effective spring rate). But, that is not all that is going on. Again I'm not saying you are wrong on your thinking just that what you are saying isn't the whole story. Again, I'll repeat, a car with a blue spring and two turns of preload and a car with a gold spring and 0 turns of preload will not handle the same, even if they have the same cross weight.

To flip around your analogy if what you were saying is true then road course guys would only need one spring type. If they wanted a harder suspension they'd just preload the spring more and decrease the shock length to keep ride height even. As we all know it doesn't work that way. Do you see what I'm saying?

So I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you don't have the whole story.

The only thing you are wrong about is needing the body on the car to set tweak. That is totally incorrect.

Simply put adding preload to a spring will not change the Spring rate. Changing to a differant spring will change the spring rate even if you dont have to preload it as much to get the same weight/tweak.

I wonder more about the effect of running two differant spring rates on the rear shocks, considering that the side shocks on most pan cars oppose each other? Does it change how the car reacts on entry and exit? How?

Simply put adding preload to a spring will not change the Spring rate. Changing to a differant spring will change the spring rate even if you dont have to preload it as much to get the same weight/tweak.



Spring rate or the weight of a spring is measured by compressing or preloading it to a given measurement and measuring the resistance force in pounds(US). So infact preload does change the spring rate. This can also be seen using a scale. One turn of preload with a stiffer spring will change the tweak more than one turn on a soft spring. If you find that you are having put a lot of turns on the shock to get the desired setting then changing to a stiffer spring will have the same effect without all the turns.

This is an example of how the HPI touring springs are measured. This was taken from Tower Hobbies website.

Spring rates are calculated under 15mm compressed condition,
stated as gram-force per millimeter.
Specs listed as G/mm is equivalent to gf/mm.

Yeah, it doesn't change the rate of a spring by adding preload, sorry it just doesn't. It will change how much weight it will take to get it to move initially but once it is moving the RATE is the same. Real car springs, the ones we run anyway, say to preload the spring until your rater shows what the advertised rate is on the spring and then compress the spring for one inch. Then that is your rate, initial preload minus the final preload. That RATE will be the same through the entire travel of the spring, if it is a linear spring and a good one.

Thinking about it I understand that the rate wouldn't change with preload. Reason there are linear and progressive springs. Most big car springs are rated at a 2 inch compression but using a spring checker the spring rate increases at every inch before and after the 2 inches. Just getting caught up with knowing that and how little springs work. I'd like to see a small spring checked the same way just to give me a better understanding. So how are the springs actaully rated? I mean do the springs need a certain amount of preload to obtain the rate or are they pretty much ready from the start?

Not about side springs persay but what side does the softer front spring go. In a real dirt car we run a softer spring on the rf. But im am a little clueless when it comes to rc car setup.lol

Some guys like softer lf springs and others like softer rf springs. I run the same spring on both sides!!

Maybe Mr Murdock if he is watching this thread could shed some light on how the springs are rated since he does make them or has them made and has given them rates. I would think they are much the same. That makes me wonder, they have rates in lbs, most do I think, I wonder how many inches or what measurement that rate is over. I don't think it would be too hard to make a spring rater for out cars really. I might have to mess with that..... I know niftech did or does sell one but I have never seen or used one.

http://www.niftech.com/pix/cat/4730.jpg

Spring constant (k) in pounds/inch would be typical for springs like ours. In the US, of course.

You can determine the spring constant with an equation. It doesn't need to be done experimentally except as a quality check.

Niftech used to maker another style of digital spring checker that a buddy of mine has and I've used to go through my springs, it is amazingly accurate to the manufac ratings.But, since Rob has come out with his line of springs there really isn't a need to guess about your springs anymore just use his and you should be okay for any track condition you encounter.I'm slowly switching over and getting rid of all the other makes and models that we used to have to have to get the desired results.

Pepe
You say you are switching over? Well I,ve used up my stocks of Wolfe springs, how do Robs springs match up?

Pepe
You say you are switching over? Well I,ve used up my stocks of Wolfe springs, how do Robs springs match up?

I'm still using my stock of wolfe front springs,but I've found the Sylva front springs to be very very good,they are made of a much more robust material and don't change or wear out like the wolfe's,which is why I still have a ton of wolfe's left. I didn't dyno my front springs just the center springs,I didn't want to take the time to make an adaptor for the fronts,but I suspect that Rob's are as accurate as any ,he is known for putting out top quality stuff,which is why he sells my sponsors batteries.I will get the dyno back, now that I have Rob's side and center springs and do a comparison,I'm sure they are accurate though.

The springs are in Inch#'s. How they become a certain rate all depends on wire size, pitch and diameter. Windtunnel springs are all CAD designed by myself and then spun accordingly. Hope that answers the questions a little there.

Rob @ Windtunnel

I was wondering what type of track sitiuation would you want to use 17lb and 15lbs side springs, like Black and Gold. :confused: