I've never raced in a break-out class, but it seems like a great idea. I know a few tracks offer this type of racing; what have people found works and doesn't work? I'm a huge fan of spec racing, but that can get complicated. A break-out class should achieve the same results (close racing) without the need to force anyone to buy special tires, motors, brushes, chassis, batteries, etc. I imagine if the break out lap time was fairly easily reached a lot of drivers would feel they were competitive without needing the latest cells, adyno, a battery zapper, new brushes for each run, etc. In the end, the best drivers would still win, but I imagine a break out rule would really increase the potential for a large competitive field. So anyway, what have people found works and doesn't work?

what we did at our track was put a roll out rule on the cars and hand out motors(chrome can so they can be used any where) it makes for close racing (12 racers with in a lap of each other). i saw break out racing for the first time in Canada and i asked what the heck are they doing. driving all over the track and fans yelling speed up ,slow down , it made no sence to me . The racer don't learn how to make their car more fliud in the corners or anything. don't run consistant line because you break out, so when the time comes to move up to next class that racer is out in left feild on setup and driving stile.

Just my opinion

I don't understand the point of breakout class either, it seems your racing both the clock and other racers. I also thought you try to keep improving everyweek thus getting faster and faster. Breakout class goes against this believe...

I've been involved in break-out racing from both a racers and a officials point of view...

Depending on the rules set forth, they can be manipulated greatly.

We had a Overall Breakout (Say 50 laps) any laps in excess were thrown out. With that type of rule, the object is to finish with as close to a perfect time (4:00 - 4:01) if running four minute racing. That way ANY laps over the breakout wouldn't matter, you'd have your time backed down to the breakout time with a near perfect clock.

Individual lap time breakouts, they would throw out just those laps that were faster than the breakout time (say 7.5 was the breakout...a 7.49 would be thrown out)

Depending on the length of the track...lots of guys did a lot of calculating.

The best way we found was to NOT allow those who regularly ran laps faster than the projected breakout into the class....and/or set up a motor/gear rule that made it nearly impossible to get to the breakout time set.

We had guys who were ahead of the breakout time...STOP on the track to finish the last lap on time (which caused crashes)

We had guys just go full out, running 2 or 3 laps quicker than the breakout, just to have the extra laps dq'd.

One of the things I wanted to implement was a total DQ for ANYONE running quicker than the breakout. Not just the extra laps or the quick laps, but THAT entire run.

I've been involved in break-out racing from both a racers and a officials point of view...

Depending on the rules set forth, they can be manipulated greatly.

We had a Overall Breakout (Say 50 laps) any laps in excess were thrown out. With that type of rule, the object is to finish with as close to a perfect time (4:00 - 4:01) if running four minute racing. That way ANY laps over the breakout wouldn't matter, you'd have your time backed down to the breakout time with a near perfect clock.

Individual lap time breakouts, they would throw out just those laps that were faster than the breakout time (say 7.5 was the breakout...a 7.49 would be thrown out)

Depending on the length of the track...lots of guys did a lot of calculating.

The best way we found was to NOT allow those who regularly ran laps faster than the projected breakout into the class....and/or set up a motor/gear rule that made it nearly impossible to get to the breakout time set.

One of the things I wanted to implement was a total DQ for ANYONE running quicker than the breakout. Not just the extra laps or the quick laps, but THAT entire run.That's some good feedback. I was thinking a lap time break out would work best. That seems like it would be pretty easy to get dialed in. Maybe a gearing rule would help. I like a gearing rule because the most it will cost someone is a few bucks for a pinion. I was also thinking anyone who ran three "under-time" laps in a row would be DQ'ed for that race. I can see a no-stopping rule also being needed. That can be enforced at the discretion of the race director.


We had guys who were ahead of the breakout time...STOP on the track to finish the last lap on time (which caused crashes)

We had guys just go full out, running 2 or 3 laps quicker than the breakout, just to have the extra laps dq'd.
driving all over the track and fans yelling speed up ,slow down , it made no sence to me
I don't doubt any of this. It amazes me, but I'm not surprised. What makes no sense to me is how people can't help themselves and stay with the spirit of the class. Sometimes it seems we're determined to ruin a good thing. I’ll never understand cheating (I personally couldn’t enjoy a win that I cheated to get) or even purposefully manipulating the rules to win. As soon as people feel they are being cheated (whether they are or not), write a eulogy because the class is as good as dead.

I’m personally going to push a break-out class at my local track. Knowing, in advance, some of the potential pitfalls (the bad) will be a huge help. Knowing the positives will also help sell this idea to the natives. Also, does anyone have any written rules for a break-out class?

IMO and i have never been involved in breakout racing but isnt the point of having a high dollar rc car to RACE it? Why would you want to put a speed limit on the cars?

IMO and i have never been involved in breakout racing but isnt the point of having a high dollar rc car to RACE it? Why would you want to put a speed limit on the cars?

I agree, whats the point to this class? :confused:

Things that we have found to ruin 'good' classes

A Sportsman Class..for only UNSPONSORED drivers. (What IS a Sponsor?) Guys pushed the rule by PAYING for thier stuff...but worked with...and pitted with FACTORY Experts...and shared car set ups that outsiders were not privy too.

Things that helped that same Sportsman Class - (similar to a spec class) it ran a DIFFERENT Battery Rule than the upper level class. Batteries that could NOT Pull WILD amperage, or have WILD Voltage so the "FACTORY Experts" didn't run the same types of set ups.

RULES..all of them are sometimes hard to enforce unless you have someone willing to be a TECH NAZI, and that takes a lot of fun out of racing. However so do the guys who only worry about GOING FASTER and FASTER instead of putting on a good race and a good show.

We run a NASTRUCK breakout class at our track. 4 cell 4200's or less, any battery, any motor even brushless, nastruck style body, anything faster than 8 seconds does not count. It has quickly become our most popular class. Even off roaders are getting into it. We run 6 minute heats and a 10 minute main. It is door to door racing for a full ten minutes! Usually at least six trucks are on the same lap at the end of the race. There is no need to tech anything!

]I’m personally going to push a break-out class at my local track. Knowing, in advance, some of the potential pitfalls (the bad) will be a huge help. Knowing the positives will also help sell this idea to the natives. Also, does anyone have any written rules for a break-out class?[/color]

Hmmm... are we involved??!?! (lol)

See ya soon!

Hmmm... are we involved??!?! (lol)

See ya soon!You know you're involved. Pushing the idea on you won't be the hard part; pushing it on the racers will be or might be.

Breakout is for folks that like to go to the track and have fun while spending a minimum and being able to have a chance to win. Laps faster than breakout don't count and if you breakout every lap then you ran half as many cause only every other lap would count and you loose so every one tries to achieve the perfect lap times. Fixed gears doesn't work and neither does roll-out limits cause then there are zapped timing problems and things aren't equal and I have seen this and watched a guy win by several laps with the same gear and less rollout cause his motor turned more RPM's than the rest of the field. Breakout has very few rules for motor and batteries and just uses like cars that can't go faster than a set lap time for each lap or the lap doesn't count. usually the largest class after it takes and the people running it are having more fun than anyone. I personally like to try to go faster every week like some here stated but not everyone needs that to have fun.

We run a break out class at our track and it works well, the only teching is with a pen. You can run any motor and battery combo you want, brushed or brushless and you can run any NASCAR/NASTRUCK body that you wish. This is a great class for people who race on a budget. It's also great for the guy who just needs lots of wheel time at first without worrying about anything else. Off roaders/touring guys have 6 cell packs and don't want to break them down, with this class they don't have to. It's not for everyone but we have all run it at one time or another no matter how good or bad we are simply because it's a lot of fun no matter who you are!

Echeconnee, are you saying that you run different types of cars at the same time as in oval & touring cars as long as they have a Nastruck/Nascar body? Even if that is the case, breakout would still work since everyone is trying to run the perfect lap.

-Are people trying to gear their cars to go slower if they are too fast or are they throttle driving them?
-Is the timing/scoring system keeping track or does the race director have to manually delete fast laps?
-Has the racing been cleaner/less wrecks?
-How has this affected motor maintenance with brushed motors?

I've seen interest in classes go up and down, but if run properly this could actually be good. In a sense you are penalizing someone who can go fast. But you could put it another way that you are encouraging the more serious racers to move to classes that fit their skills.

Interesting concept. Who thought this up?

I think it could work in almost any kind of racing. Looks like the most consistent racer with the fastest breakout lap and most laps run would win.

How is the breakout lap determined?

Are you on your own breakout timing?

I imagine there are some rules...

opps, evermind. I just read the rest of the thread...lol

Still kinda cool...

I run the breakout as a second class. This give me more time to work on my 13.5 brushless car. Once you have a setup for breakout it is pretty much race and then come back in and recharge the battteries. Unless you break something.

Breakout has become our two largest classes. One in Legends and one in pan car.

Echeconnee and JSJ Racing,
Do you happen to have the rules used for these classes or is the only rule the break-out lap time?

Any pan car chassis.
NASCAR car or truck bodies.
Any batteries.
Any tires.

People use several techniques for keeping their time legal, most run a wider line for the first few laps and set their car up to run on the bottom the rest of the race. We manually score each heat off the print out and adjust each racers stats accordingly. We have tried using the minimum lap time and it just is not accurate enough. Wrecks are about the norm for any r/c racing at the club level. I run a 19t @ 24 degrees and almost never touch it other than a routine cleaning after a day of racing. I am running Putnam X brushes and they have over 20 runs on them and still run the same. We have not had anyone run a touring car yet but I don't see why not. Our minimum lap time is 6.5 seconds, that is a 1/2 second off the fast stock cars. Stock record is 48 laps and break out is 45.Echeconnee, are you saying that you run different types of cars at the same time as in oval & touring cars as long as they have a Nastruck/Nascar body? Even if that is the case, breakout would still work since everyone is trying to run the perfect lap.

-Are people trying to gear their cars to go slower if they are too fast or are they throttle driving them?
-Is the timing/scoring system keeping track or does the race director have to manually delete fast laps?
-Has the racing been cleaner/less wrecks?
-How has this affected motor maintenance with brushed motors?

I've seen interest in classes go up and down, but if run properly this could actually be good. In a sense you are penalizing someone who can go fast. But you could put it another way that you are encouraging the more serious racers to move to classes that fit their skills.

NHRC,
Where JSJ races, the ONLY rule is the breakout! And I promise, you've never seen a group of people have more fun at a racetrack! Breakout allows you to grab up everyone's hand-me-downs because having the latest and greatest motors, batteries, tires, etc. just isn't in the equation. Throw any kind of car together and run lap times less than X seconds. The X seconds needs to be set at something fun and reasonably fast, maybe a few laps off your Stock record. We run 5.0 breakout and the Stock class usually finishes their heats running about 5.0 second laps.

At first, I was completely anti-breakout because I believed that racing meant going as fast as you can for as long as you can. If you follow NASCAR at all, you know that speed isn't even usually what wins the race. The handling of the car, maintaining a good drive line, working the wrecks, giving and taking is what wins races. Breakout IS all that without selling your first born to be able to compete. You must drive the car on every lap because you are not going to pass anyone by speed (motor/battery) alone. You must hit the entrance to the corner just right and drive off perfect or you've slowed your lap time down. What you don't have to do? Search through 10 motors to find the good one, cycle batteries for two days to get the most run time, true off "CASH" on the brand new tires you just purchased to get to the sweet spot or purchase the latest and greatest of anything. It's the most economical and closest racing that you'll ever see!

And above all you'll need to work with your radio throttle % to slow the car down.

keep this up top. i like this idea.....

Yeah...what Mike Said! LOL

What happened....is this idea all talked out..LOL

Lets plan a time out to talk on this.... K&N is willing to give any class a shot even if it means opening for a new day... right now we are toying with adding either thurs or monday nights to our weekly schedule..

C'mon y'all lets take it to the banks and see what we can do!

I'm ready to go--sort of. I'm busy as hell right now, but I should be up there soon. What night/day is best for a new class?



Here's what I think will work as a starting point:

1. Regular 4-cell stock rules

2. No purposeful slowing or starting on the track (that will just cause wrecks)

3. Break-out time to be determined

4. Any laps lower than the break out time will not count

I know rule #2 is hard to judge, but it's more about having a rule to be followed in spirit.
For rule #3, I believe it should be fast enough to be fun, but slow enough that you can hit with last year's batteries, if you know what I mean.

are breakout class is run what you brung . no sidedams and dont breakout.
that way it gives the new comers a chance to try racing without buying a race specific car. they can have fun with the stuff they already have .

break out classes are fun my son is learning more about the driving part than any thing which is very important right now rush & son have did a great job with it and it is its biggest class basicly they took 2 sec. off what prostock runs per lap and they can not run any faster indoor on carpet is 6.0 out door is 8.0 that is the class with the most competition and most fun to watch great for the budget racer and rookies

break out classes are fun my son is learning more about the driving part than any thing which is very important right now rush & son have did a great job with it and it is its biggest class basicly they took 2 sec. off what prostock runs per lap and they can not run any faster indoor on carpet is 6.0 out door is 8.0 that is the class with the most competition and most fun to watch great for the budget racer and rookies

I AGREE 100%!

We race a 59 lap breakout rule ,in 4 minutes, that is the most fun and the best racing anywhere.
Some guys break out thinking they won.
When they find out they broke out there happy that there car could turn the 59 laps. LOL

It's the best racing in Florida is at MTR! :thumbsup:

I'm ready to get this class started as it will give my son something to look forward to when going to the track. Danielle is correct, we need to establish a time to discuss this at the track. I think we can get it going.

MSA had a cool breakout class outdoors as well as indoors. The times were set .5 off of the fastest laps but was essentially a sportsmans stock class. At harriman their breakout is a whole second slower than stock and it sucks. My point is set the times to be at a good pace where its still a challenge to go fast but not WFO

MSA had a cool breakout class outdoors as well as indoors. The times were set .5 off of the fastest laps but was essentially a sportsmans stock class. At harriman their breakout is a whole second slower than stock and it sucks. My point is set the times to be at a good pace where its still a challenge to go fast but not WFO
i think time should vary from track to track each track is diffrent i dont think slower is bad because i still do more time working on my sons car than my own but one thing slower is harder to drive because of the time you have to DO DA down the straights dont like the idea of a fast breakout class because they will be 2 or 3 cars that look like somebody took a bottlerocket off the stick set it on the ground and lit it and makeing them faster does not help them or any body else slower is easyer on the budget or is on mine :thumbsup:

I'm ready to go--sort of. I'm busy as hell right now, but I should be up there soon. What night/day is best for a new class?



Here's what I think will work as a starting point:

1. Regular 4-cell stock rules

2. No purposeful slowing or starting on the track (that will just cause wrecks)

3. Break-out time to be determined

4. Any laps lower than the break out time will not count

I know rule #2 is hard to judge, but it's more about having a rule to be followed in spirit.
For rule #3, I believe it should be fast enough to be fun, but slow enough that you can hit with last year's batteries, if you know what I mean.

This seems like a GREAT Start!

To answer the general question.... "whats a good time to talk about this?"
Well ANYTIME we can get enough of us together... I realize the holidays will not help many of us and with our bigger races coming that may also hinder the situation but honestly I will be there day/night/whenever if we can get a group together to discuss this....

So whats the general plan..... I dont know if any of you were planning to come this sunday to the FREE race (all you have to do is bring an unwrapped toy for our toy drive and you get to race for FREE)... if you cant make that....what day would be good?

And like I said; anytime/day will be fine I will make it work! Whats the vote here?

I'm ready to go--sort of. I'm busy as hell right now, but I should be up there soon. What night/day is best for a new class?



Here's what I think will work as a starting point:

1. Regular 4-cell stock rules

2. No purposeful slowing or starting on the track (that will just cause wrecks)

3. Break-out time to be determined

4. Any laps lower than the break out time will not count

I know rule #2 is hard to judge, but it's more about having a rule to be followed in spirit.
For rule #3, I believe it should be fast enough to be fun, but slow enough that you can hit with last year's batteries, if you know what I mean.
every thing looks good but 4th rule any laps lower than the breakout time dont count kinda makes it just stock raceing should be any laps faster than breakout time dont count oh and i see somebody posted about playing with throttle % it is easier to find a gear than do that best breakout motor i have found is a old paradox hand out motor if you can still find one and a 21 turn easier to find the gearing with those no power and low rpm

trinity slot machine with a pair of 93 kyosho standups. that is a sweet breakout motor!

Can you even get those anymore?

Things are crazy busy for me, right now--I'm house shopping. I did make my wife promise me that I get either next Saturday or Sunday 100% to myself. That means next weekend I'm going to K&N.

I'll be at K&N This week for the toy drive. But not next weekend, I'll be in Maine. But after Maine I'll be at K&N till the end of December. We'll make this happen. As Danielle said it may take a bit of time with the big races that are planned. But we'll find some time........

ttt already

Things are crazy busy for me, right now--I'm house shopping. I did make my wife promise me that I get either next Saturday or Sunday 100% to myself. That means next weekend I'm going to K&N.
House shoppin...nice! We want a big one; wrap it with a big red bow! LOL

See ya when you can make it to K&N.

every thing looks good but 4th rule any laps lower than the breakout time dont count kinda makes it just stock raceing should be any laps faster than breakout time dont count oh and i see somebody posted about playing with throttle % it is easier to find a gear than do that best breakout motor i have found is a old paradox hand out motor if you can still find one and a 21 turn easier to find the gearing with those no power and low rpm

Yes this could happen with the rule #4...I would kill rule #4.

We are starting a new World of Outlaws Sprint Car Class at our track:


Spec batteries

Any motor (brush or brushless)

max laps breakout in 4 minutes.


3- lap qualifier to setup field. best lap.
2 qualifier heats and the mains.

no teching motors. Just fun. :thumbsup:

Your only fast if you can PUT the POWER down on the TRACK!!!
No rules!! ''Just racing like it was meant to be!''

RPM and willyplankhead, I believe we all mean the same thing on rule #4. By lower lap, I meant the time was lower (i.e. faster). For example, if the break out time was 5.0 seconds, a 4.9 would be a lower number and wouldn't count. You could also say the same thing the way you worded it. For instance: The break out time is 5.0 and any lap faster than 5.0 will not be counted. Maybe that's more clear than "lower." But at any rate, I believe we all mean the same thing.

RPM and willyplankhead, I believe we all mean the same thing on rule #4. By lower lap, I meant the time was lower (i.e. faster). For example, if the break out time was 5.0 seconds, a 4.9 would be a lower number and wouldn't count. You could also say the same thing the way you worded it. For instance: The break out time is 5.0 and any lap faster than 5.0 will not be counted. Maybe that's more clear than "lower." But at any rate, I believe we all mean the same thing.

We race a breakout class at MTR which is Mike Boylans track.
Everyone knows Mike Boylan from the Snowbirds Race he puts on every year in Florida.
Best Race of the Year!!

Mike doesn't look at lap times. Just the amount of laps!!
Its so competitive that its very easy to breakout.

How do you drive slower when your dicing back and forth for the win... :cool:

Its so much fun people gear down to go all out to turn one lap less then breakout. And it doesn't work...

Its all fun!! :thumbsup:

A friend told me that Racing is:

25% Setup
25% Driving
50% Luck

This is so true!! :cool:

hmmm

Cutting out the concern over "lap times" might be a great start.

I'd be willing to try both methods, and see which works best and yields the most fun racing.

What time do doors open on Sunday, and when does racing start?

Doors open at 9am

Racing is at Noon

All done house hunting? Whatcha find us...we need at least 3 bedrooms.... (lol)

We found a place, but that was the easy part. Were still fighting over the price and playing the different mortgage guys against each other. It's really zero fun.

Well I hope its right near K&N so we can see you more often (LOL)

Im just teasing. See ya soon!

Matt we need to talk to ya!

I've tried both individual laptime breakouts and overall number of laps breakouts. The overall number of laps worked best. When you set a minimum lap time and a person breaks out they are immediately a lap down with no chance to make it up. On a small track it's not as bad as on a big track.

So we tried setting the limit for a 4 minute run at a reasonable point. You could run whatever you wanted as far as motor or battery. If a 4 cell stock was too slow then go to 6-cell. But a 4-cell Spec car was as competitive as any other so there was no real need to go to much more than a simple setup. I also would call out the pace of the leader(s). If they crept over the breakout limit I'd let them know and if they were smart they'd slow down to get back on the legal pace. When that happened the cars behind would catch up and the run to the finish was always up for grabs. No big run-a-way by some tweaked motor or battery guy. It kept things exciting and unpredeictable. We also made the rule that in order to win you had to be under the breakout and running the entire 4 minutes. That way someone couldn't pull off the track for 30 seconds and then smoke the field or pull off early to avoid breaking out.

The key is getting enough people on board to start and keep going. We got poo-pooed upon by the puritan racers who said that Breakout racers didn't learn setups or wouldn't know how to drive faster when they moved up. What these myopic racers didn't comprehend was that not everyone wants to be the winner of 4-cell Mod. at the ROAR Nats. Some people just want to come and have fun and not have to mortgage the house to do it. Breakout classes made that possible. You could race competitively with used batts or motors that were in the $5 bin and some hot shoe's used tires.

The one thing people did learn is consistancy in their driving line. So the class isn't totally without any merit. But bottom line is the fun factor, forget the rest and don't listen to the guys who have all their big sponsors all over their t-shirts. If anything those guys ought to be mentors for racers getting into the breakout class. Some breakout racers WILL want to move up to faster classes with a different challenge and these experienced guys should be available to help them grow into the next class. That's the way the hobby and tracks grow.

At our old indoor track Legends and one of our pan car classes were breakout classes and were the biggest classes of all with the least complaints about cheaters and little to no fussing about driving.

The other issue with the breakout is if you just leave it open, there is no "What's legal" question to answer. No need for tech, drivers don't worry so much about lap times so there's less pressure.