There was a discussion over at the Andy Meyer list about getting a group of people together with the will and ability to get an all-new chassis made.

There was lots of good ideas bandied about and some wild ones. The consensus was that the list is not condusive to such a discussion and that at a forum would be, especially one that has a chat night.

I will try to get the Meyer guys over here, in the meantime I will get the ball rolling.


dw

First up what about getting a motor made that is 70%-80% the size of the current Mabuchi can motor, so that all the other wild ideas have room!!

But I encourage people to think more outside the box than that, thats a pretty tame idea of mine....


dw

I've also followed this thread on Andy's list...

Even if it's a tame idea as you say, a smaller AND can motor is definitely the good starting point IMHO

I've also followed this thread on Andy's list...

Even if it's a tame idea as you say, a smaller AND can motor is definitely the good starting point IMHO

I just didn't see the point of a pancake motor. A small can will give much more freedom with regard to bodies and, if need be, the handling/speed of the pancake cars could be built or dialled into the new design.

small powerful can motors would be a big hit for those of us who like to costumize

I am with ya! Didn't follow the other list for a while. I could be of help in a matter of CAD design, since I do that all day long!

Michael

I am with ya! Didn't follow the other list for a while. I could be of help in a matter of CAD design, since I do that all day long!

Michael

Yeah, I remember that one you did of my chassis, way cool.
How about doing a mock up or two? Say of a Tomy style can but 80% current size and set up as a sidewinder....

What we really need is someone who can talk to companies like Mabuchi, Sun etc and find out the numbers (units, costs) for something like this.

a Mabuchi motor designed like a Sizzler's motor.. with two axels coming out instead of one would be VERY cool too

First up what about getting a motor made that is 70%-80% the size of the current Mabuchi can motor, so that all the other wild ideas have room!!

I was the one on Andy's list that was harping on about the pancake motors. I did that because I like the old T-Jets so much. I think the idea of a smaller can motor to fit a smaller, T-Jet size, chassis is a good suggestion. The only thing I'm concerned with is the speed. Anyone that races stock T-Jets the most, probably has a darned twisty layout. I do. It's not that I'm old, blind, and can't follow the super fast magnet cars. I just like tweeking up the old T-Jet chassis, and running the smaller bodies at those slower speeds. It's just a matter of preference. If a can motor, or other in-line type motor, could be made to accomodate both super fast racing, and slower, T-Jet speed, racing, you could count me in %100. :thumbsup:

a Mabuchi motor designed like a Sizzler's motor.. with two axels coming out instead of one would be VERY cool too

don't know those, show me!

here you go.. i hope this works

here you go.. i hope this works

Direct drive, like a Rattler only wider?
So what do you mean by 2 axles coming out?

I was the one on Andy's list that was harping on about the pancake motors. I did that because I like the old T-Jets so much.

maybe a can motor can be geared/wound to give the performance you crave.
I know when I did RC the off road cars were often sidewinder but there was a gear between the the pinion and drive gear which made a lot of difference. Rather like the 'top tray' on a TJ but without making fitting low bodies such a pain?

You guys ever seen Ed Bianchi's Rattler chassis?:

http://horacepro.com/rattler3.jpg

http://horacepro.com/rattler.html

yeah, I have a few of them. I forgot about his site. I think that motor design is a good one and should be used in more chassis

yeah, I have a few of them. I forgot about his site. I think that motor design is a good one and should be used in more chassis

But you need some traction magnets or tracks wired for brakes?

I never understood the whole brake thing.. isn;t just cutting down on power the same thing as brakes?

Not being serious racer, I never really understood what it was all about

I never understood the whole brake thing.. isn;t just cutting down on power the same thing as brakes?

Not being serious racer, I never really understood what it was all about

No, brakes uses a third wire and reverses the motor.

maybe a can motor can be geared/wound to give the performance you crave.
I know when I did RC the off road cars were often sidewinder but there was a gear between the the pinion and drive gear which made a lot of difference. Rather like the 'top tray' on a TJ but without making fitting low bodies such a pain?

Yeah, that sounds promising. I also like the Rattler design, but it is waaaay to big for my taste. If someone could desing something like a Rattler that would fit a T-Jet body, that would be awesome.;)

yeah.. what Kirk said!

A can would be cool,,tunability would be cooler,such as a can that could have the possibility to change magnets and arms.if you go pancake, how about maybey the slide guide, kind of like the tyco pros used ,only wires going to brush barrels,use the tri-lam with a few other winds denoted by wire color,base it on the t/o or afx style chassis.that type of guide would allow some sliding and such.you could also body them accordingly,,muscle cars with a drag type wind,,can- am with a road course wind and maybe high speed high torque arm for the trans am type cars,that would also help the already established market for different crown gears and such,you could really do some mix and matching,magnet cars are pretty cool but the realism comes in my opinion from cars that are more true to the handling of a real car.heres another idea just to throw out there,,how bout a slide guide front end with some magnets in it ,the guide would keep the car in the slot like a magnet car would ,but the rear could cut loose some,,,and not de-slot near as bad,fun for outlaws and sprints.that adds another whole dimension to the racing.and from what it seems like,,,that is what people want ,but without getting to far away from the roots.just my 2 cents worth.
matt :wave:

Has anyone tried a motor from a LL T-Chassis?
It is smaller than a Tomy can.....

the LL motors are thiner but a little bit longer than tomy's

Deane,brakes don't reverse the motor,brakes throw the motor into a dead short.
Same principle as laying a steel bar across the track rails.
The Brake wire runs directly back to your negative (-) post of your power supply,that's the easy way to wire brakes

Deane,brakes don't reverse the motor,brakes throw the motor into a dead short.

My bad! I knew it was something like that.

Has anyone tried a motor from a LL T-Chassis?
It is smaller than a Tomy can.....

it has potential, as an inline, to make some great open wheel cars, and I'd love to see what could be done with moving the magnets nearer the arm.

Trouble is nobody knows who the motor is made by? If LL abandon it we would be UTCWAP!

I don't know if anyone on this list knows Earl Harris, but I was telling him about this conversation, and he mentioned that Aurora, back in the early 70s, had the kind of concept of which we are discussing with their Xlerator 2 chassis. I don't know much about those, but the ones Bob Beers has in his book sure look like they would work. Would have to get rid of the bottom side plastic flare, though. That is definately an inline chassis, though.

No, brakes uses a third wire and reverses the motor.
I'm thinking you may already know this but just for everyone else:

The "brake" circuit in slot cars is a shorted dynamic brake, which means when you stop power to the armature the brake wire shorts the rails. Without a brake circuit, the armature acts as a generator when slowing down but the small current generated simply disipates through the rails and the motor coasts. When applying a brake wire and connecting the 2 power rails, this forces the armature to work against the magnets as it slows the chassis. The amount of current the arm generates is proportional to the speed of the chassis. If you want to see this effect, try spinning your chassis on a Dremel wheel, then shorting the pick up shoes together. This same effect could also drive brake lights on HO cars but causes the braking effect. You could actually build a small circuit with resistors and a capacitor that could generate brake lighting to LED's and not affect the car too much. The capacitor would allow the lights to stay on momentarily after the car stops. ;)

Fancy controllers have many ways of tuning the brake. Trying to race without the ability to control braking can be like throwing out an anchor so most club guys don't bother with brakes.

Real dynamic brakes can be seen in diesel electric locomotives. Ever wonder why the train engine revs on a passenger train as it comes to a stop at the station? That's the dynamic braking. In simple terms; The current is reversed to the traction motors and the heat generated from resistance is dissipated through large capacitor plates near the roof of the engine cabin. Large fans on the roof cool the plates.

Years ago, I put together a t-jet chassis with a Tyco motor. The Tycopro's could scream past the t-jets, so I figured if I could put a Tyco can motor in the T-jet, I could get the speed of Tyco and the handling of the T-jet. I used existing gears from the t-jet (since this was all I had growing up). I stuck it inside a Lola GT with no problem.
The car does not have great pick up, but has about the same top speed as a T-jet. It is also much quieter.
Jim

Reviving this thread. I was the one on the mail list who suggested the belt drive sidewinder. I offered to try to come up with a CAD model, but I am just too swamped right now to even consider it. It may be doable in the depth of winter though. If I can proceed, I'd need is a starting point for an existing chassis to get the model in good proportions. I'm looking for suggestions for a chassis that is slim and low. Ideas?

Do you mean by utilizing an already availible "can" type motor??????

I really dig the ideas of Bianchis Rattler.I might even have to get one or two to play around with.

But,I like the idea of the belt drive.For one,by changing pully sizes,you are givin options for "gearing".

And secondly,no more gears getting their teeth ground off and worn out.Pulleys really wouldnt wear out,tho the belts would.But that wouldnt really be that costly.

Since way back when I was a kid during the "brass war" days,I was always intrigued by the idea of building chassis from scratch.I seemto always be kicking some kind of an idea around in my head on how to go about it.

I like the whole idea on the belt drive.Would be interested as well to see what ideas others have,as I missed the chat about it on the DL.

Mike

I remember Alan Galinko already did this with a pancake car (I mean belt drive).

Well, I still think the best option is to get a bespoke motor made by Mabuchi (or someone else) that is 80% the size of current can motors.
Also I have just heard that my idea for adjustable traction magnets is NOT going to be picked up by AW, so I might as well throw that into the ring...

Yeah,I remember that one too Deane.

I think someone else did it as well.

If my tired old memory serves me correctly,I kind of remember seeing pancake belt drives go by me on epay in the last 2 or 3 years.

Mike

If you guys will try googling electronic surplus, I think you find some interesting stuff. There are numerous pager,cd, phone etc. motors that can be had for pennys. (if you buy in bulk.)
Many of these places will supply an engineering sample if you ask.
These motors are made for low voltage, but I have some and they run fine on 18 v.d.c. They are also TINY. The ones I have are .280 x .531 can and have an .040 shaft coming out one end.
I personally think that a front engine chassis with a drive shaft would be the way to go.
I would try a settup that will allow for a coasty car. These are the most popular for the aging hobbiest.
also I would try to use as many existing parts as possible, if not all.

Tim

Tim......

Any links for these surplus motors??????

I also agree to try to use as many existing parts possible.

I went through my parts box earlier.Found a few old Mattel Sizzler motors in there,same as the SRT motors,but with the shaft coming out both ends like the Rattler.

At the moment,Im hung up on these SRT motors.
If only there were a way I could make one with a longer armature shaft. :confused:

Mike

PS Deane,could you please refresh my memory with some pics of your chassis design.I searched HT,but found nothing.

I always figured if you could make a gear or belt driven jack screw that'd raise the magnet as the car went down the track,the drag racing guys would beat a path to your door :thumbsup:

YES.. AFX.. if you could provide a link to the company selling the motors you described... that woud be great!

Bettr yet, do you have a few to sell?

I was loooking at an AFX speed steer chassis and thinking about the possiblity of turning it into a 4 wheel drive. The arm has two long axels coming out. It looks like it would be a pretty straight forward conversion. It's in-line and with some trimming, it could be made very thin.

I was loooking at an AFX speed steer chassis and thinking about the possiblity of turning it into a 4 wheel drive. The arm has two long axels coming out. It looks like it would be a pretty straight forward conversion. It's in-line and with some trimming, it could be made very thin.


Wasnt it our pal Rick that did a 4WD conversion of some sort a while back?????

Mike

Tim......

Deane,could you please refresh my memory with some pics of your chassis design.I searched HT,but found nothing.

http://www.bglawns.com/Mk1%20(35b).JPG


http://www.bglawns.com/Mk1%20(15).jpg

Hey Mike, I don;t know... I have made one from a marchon chassis and I posted the pics a few moinths back. I also made a 4WD from a t-jet, but those are somehwhat common

I;ll re-post the Marchon 4WD chassis again of you'd like to see it.

Is that the adjustable magnet illustrated in this car? Also I didn't catch if there was a specific pupose for the new design. Is it to make the fastest production car offered or just something different?

Is that the adjustable magnet illustrated in this car? Also I didn't catch if there was a specific pupose for the new design. Is it to make the fastest production car offered or just something different?

My chassis shows far more magnetic travel than you would need in a magnet car but I do think it is worth pursuing in this context as the design could go from magnatraction levels of downforce all the way to unlimited, and can be removed if want to run at Tjet levels without the chassis being weakened.

Jimmy:I would love to see the pics of your chassis again.

Deane:Thanks for the pics.Love the idea of the adjustable magnets.Love the chassis too.

One other thing to throw out there regarding gears and drive systems.
WHat about sifting through watch making or clock making suppliers?????Tons and tons of small gears used in those applications.

On a totally off topic note:

Is there a search engine to use out there besides Google?????
EVERY FREAKIN time I do a search,the first 2 or 3 pages of results take me to pages that give me links to buy things!!!! Argh!!!!

The wheels(or pulleys and gears in this instance)are spinning in my head on this whole chassis thing.More ideas later,and hopefully,some more folks will come out of hiding and throw some ideas into the mix.

Mike

Mike, in Google if you don't want to have first three pages of full of eeeBay offers, just put in your search

-eeebay (a minus in front of the most coming word)


So if you're looking for a chrome wheels set for a Aurora Mustang your search should look like this:

chrome wheels set Aurora Mustang -eeebay


Hope it can help

Tim......

Any links for these surplus motors??????

I also agree to try to use as many existing parts possible.

I went through my parts box earlier.Found a few old Mattel Sizzler motors in there,same as the SRT motors,but with the shaft coming out both ends like the Rattler.

At the moment,Im hung up on these SRT motors.
If only there were a way I could make one with a longer armature shaft. :confused:

Mike

PS Deane,could you please refresh my memory with some pics of your chassis design.I searched HT,but found nothing.

The following link should take you to a very interesting site

http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category/400200/DC_Motors.html

Lots of stuff, all dims seem to be in inches. The pager motors are the most interesting to me.

Guys,

I don't want to discourage your quest for motors but trying these pager motors etc in slot cars won't get you much - trust me I know. I have dissected many and I will say that most of these tiny motors do not have brushes that are worth anything. They are miniscule. I have had 6V motors running at 12V and they do get hot. You can add a resistor, or if you have an adjustable supply drop the voltage. But trying to get any useful life out of these things, especially super small ones will be futile. Many don't even have actual brushes as you and I think of them. Some are just small pieces of thin filiment rubbing against the comm. Force too much juice into them and they get hot, build up soot on the brushes and they they go "poof"

In the 70's the pros used to alter these mabuchi style cans and I can say that there is room to make them smaller as Montoya is suggesting. Going to a more powerful, but smaller size magnet will help. Going from a 14 or 15 stack (lam) motor to a 10-12 stack will make it a tad shorter. Current mabuchi cans are roughly .375"x.710"x.75". Based on my observations I think a 15-20% reduction is possible with a slight impact on performance. The question is will that really anwer your needs?

R. Picard
www.slotcarinnovations.com

does the same problem occur with zipzap motors which are basically hotted pager-type motors?
I like the reduced can idea, how much work would be involved in building one?

does the same problem occur with zipzap motors which are basically hotted pager-type motors?
I like the reduced can idea, how much work would be involved in building one?

Zip Zap motors are run on 3Volts max. I have taken these apart after I smoked one. They are great for their application but unless someone steps down the power to 3 volts there is no way you can run these on slot tracks. Even at 6 volts it only lasted about 2 laps, started to get slow then it just stopped. I ripped open th can and and as I mentioned before the brushes are just thin stips of copper or something like that. Think of a TOMY turbo motor without the copper brush attacked to the copper spring. The strip of copper rubs up against the comm directly. The comm was heavily scored and black. The brushes melted.

R. Picard
www.slotcarinnovations.com