I'm curious as to how many tracks out there invert the starting grid for the main. I can see how this would be beneficial on a "club" level with a wide range of ability. However, the club in question is frequented by guys that are competitive at any track they attend and this practice appears to introduce too much of a 'game' into qualifying. Also, does normal track courtesy apply if you are TQ and going a lap down due to some poor decisions, or do you contend the leader for the lap? Afterall, he hasn't really passed you the first time...just awarded a free pass for qualifying lower. I am sure I would feel different if the roles were reversed...Get out of the way! Right? As I stated, I am just curious to see how many tracks invert and what kind of racing ethics people hold. Maybe a change should be presented to the club leaders? (The rule has stood for like 20 years)

if the leader is fast enough to come up to pass you to put you a lap down then you should let him by,

If your car is ever as fast as it was in the 2nd round I think we seriously need to consider a rule change. I don't think you should start in the back. You should start in the pits. When the tone sounds the 5 of us go and you then are allowed to remove your car from your pits, run to the track with car in hand then start racing. You should be down 2 laps by then, therefore making it a really close race at the end.
Oh, top qualifier (you) shouldn't be allowed to use traction compound either, well, you can use jack the gripper! :tongue:

I think the TQ guy should start on the pole. The only way TQ would start in any other position then 1st, would be if they have a Dash type format, that sets the field.

any pancar race that I've been to that has inverted the field for the main has been a huge wreck fest. No offense, but the guys that qualify in the back are usually there for a reason. Let the fast guys start up front.

any pancar race that I've been to that has inverted the field for the main has been a huge wreck fest. No offense, but the guys that qualify in the back are usually there for a reason. Let the fast guys start up front.

I agree 100% , too much of a wreck fest.
Do you think the fast guys in Nascar would want to start in the rear ??
Come on , they'd all see who could qualify the slowest, doesn't make sense.

The only time inverting can be fun is at a bigger race where the field is very tight. If there is much difference between 1st and 8th then it will be a crashfest. If you're going to do inverting then I think you should pick the number of postions out of a hat. That will eliminate the sandbagging.

Personally, I always thought inverting was stupid. Why should people be punished for qualifying higher? Real short track racing inverts to make things interesting for the spectators. That obviously isn't a concern in RC racing.

pull the ping-pong ball and see how many invert haha. No but seriously,TQ should start in the #1 slot. Some tracks where there isnt much passing oppurtunitys but there is good competition, your pretty much being set up to lose unless you take people out. But if everyone is good and is a close field (like the A should be) you are once again set up for failure. When the whole field is seperated by tenths and you are "penalized" for TQing and being sent to the back, it will end up being a nose-tail race and you will end up finishing right where you started....last. Invert=Punishment to the driver who worked hard to get the TQ spot. As far as lapping goes, they have to earn the first one, unless your having a issue where you cant be competitive. If you feel you should be leading but were sent due to some novice then run the leader hard. Jason why/how are you being lapped anyways? lol

Why hold the leader up, If your being lap get out of the way.

but you might catch the lucky dog!!

Why hold the leader up, If your being lap get out of the way.

Just my opinion, when I ran "real cars" the rule of thumb has always been the leader has to earn the first time around then if he comes up again you move over with no holding them up. UNLESS you are having car troubles and then you move over the first time. Generally if the leader is ALOT faster than me then I let them go. Just to clarify I am talking about the full size cars here. LOLOL

Smokefan, edited his post, no need for this responce.

WOW...great feedback guys. I'd like to re-state that these guys are all FAST and CLOSE. Any one of these guys can win on any given day. The problem is that it somewhat turns into a poker game...meaning you may never see their real 'hand' until the main. I'm not accusing anyone of sandbagging...but I like to try my best EVERY run. I may not know what I'm up against when the field is set, but everyone knows what I have.

Tommygun - thanks for having a sense of humor...I didn't want to sound like sour grapes. All five of you guys got it together and were fast! I thought I had more of a cushion for risk. WRONG! Mr. Murray will get the wave by next time. LOL. (I'll be buying some Jack as that can is almost gone...good eye)

Jason

Smokefan, This isn't real cars, there aren't any cautions. To let you caught back up and pit to fix your car. Theirs no reason to hold the leader up, and if your being lapped more then once you should pull your car off the track and fix it.

LOL See above post I edited it to say that I was refering to large cars.

So how many tracks actually invert there starts?? I agree if you bust your butt to get TQ you should be rewarded by starting out front.

smokefan, Thanks for the clarifcation, PMed back.

Mike sent ya a PM LOLOL

Mike thanks for giving me a chance to clarify what I was talking about and I corrected the post. My bad LOL

The heats are for qualifying. If you run fastest in the heat then you have earned the pole and shouldn't have to deal with the crashing that comes with starting near the back. When I race fullsize cars they have a handycap deal set buy you previous three finishes. The guy who has the best three finishes starts at the back of the qualified cars. If you finish out of say the top 4 in your heat you start last. This could work with rc somewhat accept you local track may only get 10 guys.

I've been through this before and inverting is only OK if your seperated by a TON, that way you can be paitent and wait to make a move. When the field is SOOOOO tight and you have to start at the rear, your starting 2 seconds back already, now you have to fight and claw your way to the front taking more time than the leader takes to round the track, SO how the hell are you supposed to make up 4 seconds on the guy who started on the pole, when you only qualified 1 second faster??? Inverting an RC car race at that level is just asking for problems.

Mike, if you get taken in the first corner and the leader is coming around to lap you but you feel your faster and you are faster then dont move over the first time. But if your not making progress then let him go. i have had a few heat races where i had to come from a lap or 2 down cause of something silly that happened in the first few laps. If i know im slower i will give them plenty of room, or if there is a battle for the lead then i will let them go as well. But if first has a decent amount over second i wil see if i can outrun him. If not let him pass and tuck in behind him. Thats another good way to make up a few spots is if you can hang behind the leader and he laps 1 or 2 more people most of the time when the move over for the leader you can pick thoose spots up. Different situtations call for different measures when it comes to lapping/being lapped. Good judgement and cool heads will prevail. As far as inverting....not a good idea. Especially with the calliber of racers we are talking about up here. Where we race a dozen of us can go to any track and dominate at any time. We are not talking about average club racing. The A-main at the track around here is the A main anywheres you go.

does normal track courtesy apply if you are TQ and going a lap down due to some poor decisions, or do you contend the leader for the lap?

Ask Frank Ulbrik about this one. At the first BRL race he lead the first couple of laps before get into a wreck which put him right in front of the leaders. He held his line for most of the race because he was the fastest car on the track. 1st place did get by him and he was in between 1st and 2nd for a couple more laps with all 3 nose to tail. He moved out and let 2nd go. He didn't lose much ground and when the 2 lead cars got together with 30 secs left he got back by both of them and finished on the lead lap.

Should depend on the size of the track...

Good drivers know how to pass around the slower guys!! :thumbsup:

I like how they used to do it on the local stock car short tracks was invert the first 2 or 3 rows.

One thing I'd really like to see is the big cars (Cup or Local) start from a dead stop like we do!!! Talk about a wreck fest!!! LOL :thumbsup:

only thing that needs inverted is a cold one after the racing is over.

I totally disagree with ya Yok, need to invert only the first six lol

WOW...great feedback guys. I'd like to re-state that these guys are all FAST and CLOSE. Any one of these guys can win on any given day. The problem is that it somewhat turns into a poker game...meaning you may never see their real 'hand' until the main. I'm not accusing anyone of sandbagging...but I like to try my best EVERY run. I may not know what I'm up against when the field is set, but everyone knows what I have.


Jason

Just so you know,Knowbody is sandbagging, when your in a heat with four cars that all are a-main capable and you run staggered quailifing,someone from that heat will probilly end up with the tq, But if you in a heat with 5 cars that 2 cars can run 89/90 laps, 1 car that can run 86/87 and the other 2 cars only can run 83 as there best run so far this year you will be happy to make the show, if circumstances were different in qualifing this week we would of had 2 or 3 90 lap runs quailifing and the whole discussion would never have been brought up, club rules that are fun for the fans(I mean the fans are the guys running the other classes that are not racing in the a-main yet) keep it interresting and keep there club going.:thumbsup: I'm happy to have another place to race. And don't mind having the challange of coming from the back,Wich has been done many times< Just makes me work harder on my set up and improves my driving, It would be different if it was a big points issue but I am not there to race point, just to have fun

ps: if you want to know what someone really has,check there lap times towards the end of the run, it will tell the whole story. see you at the track.

Thanks, Wade

I knew if anyone could make me look at it differently YOU could. LOL. I already thought about the lap time deal and like I said I would never accuse anyone of sandbagging...because you could just use sub-par equipment to obtain the same results. I hope you don't think that this is a b!tch session, It's not, I just wanted to see how people felt. See ya this weekend (Barre) WooHoo!

One more thing that has been on my mind...I won twice from the pole last year at the club. The last one was one of the most enjoyable races ever - Harrington was 2 carpet threads off my bumper for the last 15 laps. All I remember afterwards was hearing from others "you never would have won if it wasn't inverted...Blah Blah Blah". I went from feeling like I got my car working good and accomplishing something to being ashamed of winning...Just another view on inverting from the same house through a different window. Some might say "a win is a win" but I almost wanted to give it back. If you win from the pole with a straight-up start, it's because you earned it and NOBODY can take that away from you. Sure, it looks real flashy to win from the back, but I don't want to PAY money to do it! Phew...I feel better now, thanks. Let's race......

Jason

...Just another view on inverting from the same house through a different window.
thats some real poetic.....stuff right there Jason :jest:

3 of us ran 3800's in the heats because we ran our 4200's in 5 minute 19 turn the day before, we didn't want to double run packs. no shady stuff. I only have 3 4200's. I always try to get other stuff working at club races, different chassis, tire combo, motor, rollouts. If I would have put my good stuff in I would have went at LEAST a lap slower :lol:

man some of you take this stuff waaaaaay to seriously (not directed at you jason)

http://cdrcracers.com/php2/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=12

Inverted starting order should only be done in the 2nd heat (if you have 4 heats, then 2nd and 4th should be inverted). After that, if you've worked your way to TQ, then you have earned that starting position up front. If you want closer racing, then you need to encourage classes or rules (brushless for example) to help keep the speeds closer. Inverting the Mains is not a solution for that.

If the track owner makes any profit, encourage him to spend a little on advertising or other techniques to increase attendance. As racers, we should do whatever it takes to encourage new racers. To help them out, welcome them, etc.. The more racers you have, the closer and more exciting the racing will be.

I've run in off-road where they inverted the heat races/qualifiers. I thought that worked well. On a large onroad/offroad track with starts called out by the announcer it helps spread out the field. Not really practical for oval racing on a small track. Still though even in IFMAR qualifying to could invert the starting grid to give everyone a chance to start in the front at least once. I wouldn't ever invert mains.

In oval they do it exactly the same as offroad or roadcourse. We do have are own clock but still all go off the line at relatively the same time. Or clocks start just as they do in the other types but they don't call each car to go.

What I was saying that on a large onroad/offroad track you can tell racer #1 go, wait a second , tell racer #2 go, wait a second, etc.... and effectively space out 10 cars on the track. On an oval track this isn't pratical or very safe since the average track sees lap times less than 4 seconds. I do race on oval tracks that have a "heads-up IFMAR start" that means all racers are on their own clock. This is okay unless everyone bunches up and still goes at the buzzer.

What I prefer to see on Oval is 2 groups in each heat. Group 1 goes at the buzzer and Group 2 goes a second later. This helps space things out a little bit. You then invert it in the next qualifier and Group 2 goes first and Group 1 last. Again, this is only pratical on larger oval tracks.

Still no matter what you try some people still want to line up on your rear bumper.

Do like so many full scale Saturday Night Dirt Oval tracks. Have the TQ do a PILL DROP and let him pull from a hat one of 5 INVERT choices. 1- Straight Up 2 - 2 car invert 3- 4 car invert 4 - 6 car invert 5 -8 car invert. You still have to SHOOT for the TQ spot, and you never know HOW you are going to line up. If it's a POINTS series event, the TQ still gets TQ points, but may have to work his way from the back. THAT Should actually make good racing unless everyone is a bunch of HACKS

Let me preface this by saying, I'm not bashing anyone,
or any track, or any thing... it's only an opinion..
So no one, or no track should take this too seriously.
:thumbsup:

I think r/c racing is becoming less about 'racing',
and more about 'how fast can you go'..

When you think that if you run 3 heats, and are supposed to
let people by, and not hold anyone up,
and not touch anyone, get yelled at if you do,
and 1 main where you try to come in first....
you spend 12-16 minutes trying to see how fast you can go,
and 4 minutes 'racing'...

So you spend 3-4 times as much time 'qualifying' as you do 'racing'... :confused:

We are drifting away from the original concept of a 'race'...
To see who comes out on top...

In real racing, the 'stars' don't always start in front.
They don't have 3 tries to qualify.
If the defending champion craps out in qualifying,
he starts out back. With all the squirrels.
In r/c racing, at some big races, the guys are often grouped
by how good they are.
This means that the 'A' and 'B' heats are almost assured of being the
A and B 'mains'... barring mechanical failures.
That stinks, imo.
Guys bunched up in the lower heats are almost shut out
of the higher mains, before the races even start.
Everyone that walks in that door pays the same to race
that event. You should all be treated as such.
The same.
Set up the first round of qualifying by random.
If everyone had to 'race' there way in, you may never really know
who was in and who was out of the higher mains, until the last
heat was run off..
I know... the hot guys don't like dealing with guys of lesser
ability and equipment, but the same is true in real 'racing'.
You have to deal with everyone on the track,
there are no 'gimmies'...
There are plenty of guys out there that make Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart
hold their breath when they come up on them.
Hence the phrase "that's racing"...
If the best guys in the hobby, can't get it done in 3-4 heats,
well, that's just the way it was on that day..
If you're the type of guy that would punch someone out
that hit your car in a r/c car race, maybe you should look
at another hobby..
In the end, the cream will always rise to the top.
That means that 'most' of the time, those guys WILL be in the A main.
They just may have to work harder for it.
But occasionally... they won't.
And some guy that usually runs the C, may be having the day of his life,
and will make it into an A....

Last week where we run, we all did the 'space out, and go as many
laps as you can' qualifying. At the end of the 4 minutes,
we stayed out there and 'raced' each other for 10 or 12 laps.
That was tons more fun, than staying 8 feet apart,
and the seond place guy on the track actually 'winning'.
Yeah, we hit a little, spun a little,
but actually were having 'fun'..... Racing....

I know this isn't consistent with the majority here, but
I'm not really into how fast I can go, untouched, unobstructed,
and unchallenged for 4 minute whacks....
I'm not sponsored, never will be,
not a threat to any of the hotdogs, and never will be.
I'm way past my best years. :(
I just like racing.

But then I also ran real cars before r/c cars, so my feelings for
'racing' can be/are certainly different from those that have just done
r/c racing... we all have our own slant on things.
We used to spend 25 seconds qualifying, and the whole night 'racing'...
Now, I spend 16 minutes qualifying, and 4 minutes racing..

WoW, Your long winded~ GOOD JOB

My "PERSONAL" like is

Set up the first round KNOWING the level of the competitor (when possible)

If you have 40 racers in a class and 5 of them are ALL top 5 guys, put ONE of them in each heat. Try to spread the first round out equally to have equal slower and faster guys in each heat. THEN Resort EACH Round, with the CREAM rising to the TOP until you've got the FASTEST 8 or 10 for the mains. (I like doing the fastest 8, then bumping up 2 from lower main) If there are enough cars, instead of bumping 2 out of ONE "B" Main, I'd like to do what I see a lot of full size tracks do, actually run 2 "B" mains. Split them in 1/2 by qualifying times, then transfer the WINNER of Each "B".

Mains further back could work to bump to the "B" too, for those races with THAT many entries (Which is rare these days.)

That all sounds well and good on paper. But imo mixing racers of different abilitys is a bad idea and has proved so time and time again. People who are in the "A and B" heats worked to get there. Why should they be punished by being put with someone who is just getting started only to be hacked every round. Its no fun for the "A or B" driver to be hacked and its no fun for the beginner to have to worry about the leader coming and every 3 laps to lap him. It adds more stress to the "a or b" driver and more pressure and nervousness to the novice. When seperating heats by ability the "a or b" heats will be the "a or b" main beacause they most likey work together and know when to give and take. The "lesser or slower" heats will fill in the rest beacause they are turning the same amount of laps as others in their heat they can get track time without having to worry about moving over. Take the birds for instance, you notice a slew of differences in ability in 4-cell stock all mixed together. This turns it into a wreck fest in some cases. Faster drivers being hacked and the slower, or newer guys being yelled at or having to move over. Both partys are equally stressed and their performances suffer due to people being hacked and moving over. Now if the heats are matched up on ability, the fast guys will turn equal laps and not have to worry about loosing time with lapped traffic thus increasing their laps. The slower, newer drivers dont have to worry about moving over and lifting for faster cars every 3 laps thus increasing their laps. Both partys are equally as happy. RC should barely ever be compared to NASCAR or "big cars" Nascar drivers dont have to worry about being wrecked in qualifying. They are racing the clock like we are in heats not eachother. Mixing abilitys in heats is like comparing the local weekend warrior dirt racer and throwing him in a cup race.There is a learning curve in RC, it takes a while just to get the hang of drving in an oval and learning how the car react. In a real car almost anyone can drive in an oval, its much or easier to judge when your in the car. There is soo many differences i dont really have time to explain im sure ive helped prove my point.

Why should they be punished by being put with someone who is just getting started only to be hacked every round.

Then WHY qualify at ALL? Why not just put those guys with the big heads in the 'A' Main and send everyone else home?

Better yet, why not run 50 - 3 car classes, so NOBODY doesn't get a podium finish?

IT'S CALLED RACING~Not GIVE the fast guy the best position, because he thinks he's the best guy. MAKE HIM PROVE IT Time and Time again. The GOOD Guys...are patient and can work through slow cars...The guys who just happen to have FAST Cars, but are not the WORLD'S TOP Quality drivers..Hack or Get Hacked~

Why in the world would you ever put fast guys with slow guys, I have never understood this. Thats a great way to frusturate the slow guys AND fast guys. How is that racing? How is that fun? I enjoy racing with people that are close in speed to me.

This thread is hilarious. Some don't like the inverted start because there is too much wrecking but some want to put the 90 lap cars with the 75 lap cars.

What I've seen work best, in my opinion, is set the heats by everyones best run, if you haven't been to the track you make pre qualifier run.

That all sounds well and good on paper....
The slower, newer drivers dont have to worry about moving over and lifting for faster cars every 3 laps thus increasing their laps..

Well... on paper your thoughts are not any more realistic
than you say mine are either..
First off, it's quite rare, at least in my limited experience, (1987)
to see 'beginners' sign up for a big race in the same division
as the 'hotdogs'.
Most of them would be in the sportsman class, or whatever your
track calls the lesser experienced racers...
A good promoter would take care of this.
Obviously, this is probably not universal.
Even though it should be... :rolleyes:
Secondly... I see PLENTY of hacks and hacking out of guys that
run A and B mains regularly.
Hacking is not exclusive to lesser experienced guys.


I do not try to 'compare' r/c with real...
I know they are different, I've done both..
but I do maintain that giving the more experienced 'faster guys'
a challenge occasionally, is not the end of the world...
Especially at big events.
Those SHOULD be the most challenging.
But if you put the fastest 8 guys in the house in the same heat,
chances are pretty good they are ALL going to go for the laps in
the first round, get in the A, and then go for the gusto (records,
or whatever) in the next rounds...

Like I said.. I'm not trying to re invent the wheel, just expressing
my thoughts on the present state of qualifying in r/c racing..
If I absolutely hated it, I wouldn't try to do it every week...
I go with the flow. If everyone wants IFMAR, fine.
If you want to race to qualify, fine.
If you want to draw names out of a hat... do it.
I'm there. Might not "love it", but it's okay with me..
I'm just a "kid" playing with some friends on Sunday mornings.. :thumbsup:

I agree with swtour about making the good drivers prove their worth. I've seen my share of so-called good racers who couldn't race in traffic to save their life. I've also seen too many race directors bend rules to benefit the local fast guys. Make qualifying mean something by giving everyone a fair shot and not creating stacked heats. Other than qualifiers, why would you ever want to invert a main?

Tommygun,

using your theory, we shouldn't even need to waste time qualifying. based on previous race results, show up and run the main based on how last weeks main finished. One 4 minute race a week....and go home.

Using my theory, Everybody has about the same opportunity to go fast (In that class) and by resorting after EACH round, the fast guys work to get together each round until they ALL meet up in the main.

WHY Do this?

A) Because 10 SLOW guys will NEVER get fast racing against only 10 SLOW guys.

Let a slower guy run against progressively faster drivers, and a lot of time HIS driving improves just from exposure to better drivers.

For MOST races on the LOCAL level, this whole discussion is a waste of time anyway...because they are lucky to just fill ONE full main.

As for BIG races that are held on a temporary surface, NOBODY should be "above qualifying" to get into "THE SHOW"

Tommygun,

WHY Do this?

A) Because 10 SLOW guys will NEVER get fast racing against only 10 SLOW guys.

Let a slower guy run against progressively faster drivers, and a lot of time HIS driving improves just from exposure to better drivers.



So the slow guys get faster by moving out of the way all the time for the faster racers? So not only do they have to worry about holding a good line and getting comfortable with their car, they have to worry about moving over for a racer who is much faster than them. Yes you learn alot about how to get faster by being lapped constantly, you learn what did i get myself into? Where if your in a race with a lap or even 2 lap difference from first to last your semi competitive and can hang and follow with thoose in your heat and not worry about being run over or lapped by the leader every 4 laps. Nobody is giving the fast guy anything besides what he has due to him. Besides you say you can work your way form any heat right? Then what does it matter if "lower" or "lesser" racers are in the "lower heats" They can still work their way up right? In a situation where the field is seperated by tenths up front and there is little room for error the last thing you wanna worry about is having a horrible heat where you cant get in a clean heat beacause there is a 10 lap difference between you and second place. Lets see how good someone is by seeing if they can make it through a heat and not get wrecked, break parts, chunk tires and tweak t-plates beacause someone just picked up a radio and started today. sounds more like a last man standing/enduro scenario. Why mix top "A-main" sponsored racers with someone who turns alot lesser laps with lesser experience. How is that racing? A 20 lap difference from first to last is a real great race indeed. Its good to have your own opinion as i am stating mine as well. I am just going by what i have seen work time and time again. I have been on both sides of the spectrum. Anywhere from starting out to being that sponsored guy in a rough heat, i have been there.

No theories here. Just stating what I have seen work well. I have been to races that use your theory. As an example, last week a friend that was with me got stuck in a rough heat, (nothing against the other racers, most try there best to give room but some just don't use there head) he was on his roof at least 3 times each heat, he has been racing for 20 years and one of the smoothest, smartest, most cautious drivers around, I felt really bad for him. I was in a much cleaner heat, just luck of the draw. Nothing to do with skill whatsoever. Using your theory, it's all about luck, whoever is on their roof less or whoever has the faster corner marshalls to get there car back on 4 wheels runs better.

Justin,

Why mix top "A-main" sponsored racers with someone who turns alot lesser laps with lesser experience. How is that racing?

Why are these SPONSORED racers running the same class as the NOVICE racer in the first place? Are they just a bunch of "cherry pickers"? Maybe we're getting to part of the root of the problem here. We don't often seem to have that problem out here.

If that many of you guys are seeing that kind of regular problems...maybe the problem isn't WHERE you START, or Which HEAT you are IN, but maybe instead the fact that nobody is helping fix the problem of unskilled racers racing in a class they don't belong in.

swtour........"Well Said".. :thumbsup:

Fast guys belong in the front , if you TQ you've earned the right to be on the pole and thats that , CDRCSCC club rule is ridiculous , just my .02 cents

here is my 2 cents! I personnally think that the TQ spot is more prestigous than a win. The TQ spot shows all racers who is the fastest all day. You have 3 qualifiers to show this. Anybody can sneak a win by fluke (for example, during a A-main crash-fest) but it is rare that someone will do the same for the pole.

I race hard during the qualifiers to prove this point. I want to show that I am fast and that entitles me to the pole. If inversion (or some sort of inversion) would be the rule, why would we qualify. We might as well eliminate qualifiers and pull numbers out of a hat. When did racing become a lotery? Racing is racing.

I know that that some people see inversion as fair....I DO NOT. As I read some of these posts, I conclude that some people like to complicate life and like to whine. These people will never be happy. Keep it simple....1st position goes to the top quailier and so on.

Anyways, who says life is fair.

Antonio De Nino