I had an interesting discussion with Jim Campbell, the Prez. Of Tekin, while at the Chicago Hobby Show on where the brushless thing is going.

We hit first on the aspects of a “stock” brushless motor. His feeling is that it will be almost impossible to actually make a set of rules for a stock performance type motor. He said that he could make a 13.5 turn motor that would perform like a Novak 7.5 if he wanted. Using a Kv rating wouldn’t work because the motors he has been developing can pull a LOT more gear then the current Novak motors.

So where does that leave “stock” racing in the brushless world? I guess you either have to spec the use of only one manufacturer’s motor for this “stock” class or leave stock racing to brushed motors. Both have their bad points as I personally don’t like to limit a class to only one manufacturer but then stock racing could lose the advantage of brushless motors.

Next was the current state of the racing orgs. rules. ROAR allows both sensored and sensorless motors. IFMAR only allows sensored motors. ROAR has some certain specs for how the motor is constructed but IFMAR doesn’t. This puts the manufacturer in a bind on what market to make products for as each system has it’s own advantages and disadvantages. This could slow down the introduction of new products.

During this time we talked about the armature in the motors and how they affect performance. The air gap in the motor is an important part on how the motor performs. If you put in a larger armature (magnet) in the motor this gives you a smaller air gap and increases the torque of the motor. Of course we have to throw in the magnet material and the strength of the magnet as it also can affect the same thing.

Last we talked about where brushless technology will be in a few years. He feels that once everything shakes out that most racers will have a few different cans (each with different winds) and a few different arms (different diameters) and swap arms in the different cans to get the performance that they want. While this may seem more then what we are using now with brushed motors, once the racer gets used to it they will be able to really tuned the performance of the motor to suit the conditions they are racing on. Much more then is now possible.

Sounds like a very interesting discussion.

It would be hard to spec a certain motor for stock, but that's pretty much what we are doing now. Novak was the first to get these things out there, so they became the standard early on. The ASA series had a specific engine that had to be run, so maybe it's not that bad. ASA is gone now, but that's not why.
RC oval racing is just not popular enough to have Novak motor races and LRP motor races, and so on. While the motors are easier to tech, there's a whole new and maybe larger problem coming. If stock brushed motors stay around, this will be why.

The novak "sintered" rotor is smaller than the stock one, but also seems to have a stronger magnet. So there's a bigger airgap, but stronger magnet to compensate. Is this the best of both worlds maybe?

Does Jim Campbell or Tekin care about "stock" brushless racing? I am not going to post the response I got back in an email from Tekin tech support, but I would say that they don't. I can understand why a manufacturer wouldn't want to limit their products. However, the manufacturers need to understand that not everyone wants to have that many motor parts in their tool box.

I think there is room for "stock" or "spec" racing in brushless. I think Tekin needs to seriously look at what the BRL series is doing for brushless in oval. The 4300 class is generating a lot of support and interest. I think manufacturers need to acknowledge that not everyone can afford to run open modified speed or is talented enough to do so. I personally think Tekin is missing an opportunity at this time.

The whole point was that if Tekin (or any other brushless motor manufacturer) would make a 4300 kv motor, it would perform differently then the Novak unit. Unless they would copy the motor exactly (which they may not be able to do due to copyright limitations) it would perform differently and as all motor manufacturers want to do, they want their motor to perform better then the other guys motor.

There are a number of reasons that other manufacturers don't want to copy the Novak design.... but basically it is an older, cruder design that doesn't take full advantage of what a brushless motor is all about. This is one reason that Novak motors tend to overheat. Not that it is a put down to Novak motors, just that it is a limitation of the design that everyone needs to work with.

This also may have Novak is a bind since those motors have become a "standard" at some tracks. They can't update the design because the new motors would perform so much better that it would make the older motors paperweights.

davz, your right about ASA, but then some teams did find ways to make that "sealed" motor run better then others. ;)

Well, it's a simple question...people want to race, why should they have to worry about different brushless motors to select from, when brushless was supposed to level the playing field in the first place. It's ridiculous and it's all about money to the developers of the products, which I feel is ruining the hobby/enjoyment of racing. A stock brushless motor should be developed and the specs should be layed out for it, period. Then, have a Pro-Stock class motor, which is basically what the 4300 is now, spec'd out as well. Then, have a Pro-Mod class, also spec'd out. To let those who enjoy spending thousands of bucks on today's fastest motor, let them run in the Unlimited class. If companies want to betray the point of brushless (IN MY OPINION) by offering all these upgrades to the 4300 motors, as Novak does now, then I'll stop running it and go back to brushed motors. I got into brushless oval because of the simple fact it was supposed to level the playing field in motors, yet to keep up with most of those at a local track, I HAD to purchase the sintered rotor and endbell kit. That is exactly the same as modifying the 4300 motor, as it doesn't come with a sintered rotor. So, now my $65 motor has cost me $117...hm, I could buy a good brushed mod AND a good brushed stock motor for that, interesting....I'll bet in 3 months there will be another new rotor and something else you have to upgrade to, just to keep up in the '4300' class. The same will hold true for the 13.5 class as well.

Full-sized racing sanctions have used specifications for motors since their inception (most), I see no reason why the R/C world should be any different. These types of things have always been my argument in NASCAR as well...they still call it "Stock Car Racing". Eh? Where? The bodies don't look the same, the motors aren't the same (they aren't even manufactured by the same companies), tires aren't the same, etc. In fact, I'd venture to say 99.9% of anything in NASCAR Nextel Cup resembles the opposite of what consumers get in their real cars. If it was truly STOCK CAR racing, imagine how good our cars would be? All that racing technology would be the same a consumer would get, only tried and tested on a real track! I hope you see my point...

SuperXray, I tend to agree with you. I went to the 1st National Brushless race at Allen's in Springfield last year and it was really cool that eveyone was running the same powerplant and 1 of 4 speed controls. I don't think that any one motor was much better than the others and I personally don't think that it makes much difference what speed control you run either.

I certainly don't want to see brushless become the motor of the week and you need this upgrade and this new speed control to be competitive.

I've been running 4300 brushless oval for over 2 years without much for expenses. I've not had a motor or a speed control go bad and I am still competitive today. (The driver and setup guy are usually the problem).

I hope that this doesn't end up like the 19 turn class and the stock class, where it appears that you need to find the right brush, the right can and the right combination or even the right version of a motor to be competitive.

In my opinion, the solution is simple because according to the laws of physics, there is only 1 true way to compare motors with different technologies, and this is by the power they generate. Therefore classes should be defined by how many Watts of power a motor can produce at 7.2 Volts.

As Big Jim (http://www.rccars.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=19) used to say:
746 Watts = 1 electric horsepower
"Horsepower is horsepower! Speed then, is just a matter of gearing.
HP (Watts) = RPM x Torque"

For example, for the classes, it could be as easy as this:
Stock = 100 Watts or less
Super Stock = 200 Watts or less
Modified = Unlimited Watts of power

(or some variation like that)

Here's Novak's chart:
http://www.teamnovak.com/products/brushless/06motor_chart_web.gif

The maximum wattage a motor produces is the only true way to compare motors regardless of the manufacturer design, or technology (brushed, brushless, or anything that comes in the future.) The only thing we really need to make this work is for some companies to make some load dynos, especially some that can do brushless as well.

I think that the 13.5 and 4300 motors will probably be Novak only racing for a long time to come. They were in the forefront of brushless and deserve the success they are seeing with these classes. Tekin could make a speed control with same capabilities as that of the Novak and LRP but make it smaller and more user friendly and that coupled with there reputation would sell a ton of units. Or make something no racing group will allow and watch from the sideline waiting for mod to take hold of brushless.


They are shooting theirselves in the foot by trying to out do the other mfg's by making it with a pc link and adjustable timing if what I have seen is true.

I speak only from an oval racers point of view not touring or offroad as they may be looking for different motors and speed controls that aren't equal.

I'm not sure any manufacturer has ever said that brushless motor were made to level the playing field. If I'm wrong please point me to the article that says that.

The problem I would have with wattage is who would check the motors to see if they are below the limit? I would think this would turn more into a "buy 10 motors and see what one is closest to 100w" type thing as we know there are manuf. variations? What happens if I buy a 100w motor and it puts out 102w?

You can adjust the timing on Novak motors but you have to "know" how to do it. Why not just let that adjustment be available to everyone? The PC link does nothing more then allow you to store profiles.

I'm not sure any manufacturer has ever said that brushless motor were made to level the playing field. If I'm wrong please point me to the article that says that.

The problem I would have with wattage is who would check the motors to see if they are below the limit? I would think this would turn more into a "buy 10 motors and see what one is closest to 100w" type thing as we know there are manuf. variations? What happens if I buy a 100w motor and it puts out 102w?

You can adjust the timing on Novak motors but you have to "know" how to do it. Why not just let that adjustment be available to everyone? The PC link does nothing more then allow you to store profiles.

The Tekin has adjustable timing via the speed control not via the motor so there for it may be capable of more adjustment than just with the motor.

this is straight from the tekinsite:

Other features include Tekin's proven on-board programming, adjustable brake, adjustable throttle, motor timing and even an exclusive built-in temperature monitoring system!
Super small footprints, R1; 1.3" x 1" x .75", R1 Pro; 1.3" x 1" x 1"

this can be found at http://www.teamtekin.com/new%20products.asp and this is what I was referring to in my post as not likely to be accepted very well by leagues and organizations but I could be wrong and time will tell.

I don't think bashers care as much about limiting motors. However in the US, racers want classes that are at least on the surface equal. Is it too much to ask the companies that make brushless motors to give us a quality motor that isn't so fast that we're breaking parts every turn? I think the manufacturers need to acknowledge that the largest base of r/c car owners isn't rich enough or talented enough to run open mod. Give us a motor that is limited to a reasonable speed on the track - not a motor that I have to gear down or limit my throttle EPA or adjust via the speed control. The reality is if we allow the fastest possible motors on the track then someone is going to try to use all of that power.

There was another thread with links to videos of racing in the 80's. The cars were slow but there were plenty of racers. As the technology/speed has increased, the amount of people in the hobby has declined. Some might argue that the cars are too technical and the speeds are too fast. I would say they have a point. Is brushless going to drive more people away because the manufacturers can't control themselves and are on some ego trip to make the best/fastest motors they can?

Do we need to go back to the speeds in the 80's? Of course not. Is it unreasonable to ask for a quality brushless motor that isn't ballistic? Of course not. Maybe the Novak 4300 isn't the greatest motor in the world, but for now it fills the roll of being fast enough (at least for oval).

I'd like to back up my statements with some stats. Let's take the 2006 Snowbird Nationals as an example. I realize that the Snowbird race is unique, but it is a good example of an oval race for all racers.

Total oval entries - 363
Total stock/19 turn entries - 286
Total mod entries - 77

Over 75% of the oval entries at the 2006 Snowbird Nationals were NOT in an open mod class. I'm not saying that the turn-out is representative of racing throughout the country, but I rarely see anyone running open mod at the oval tracks I race in Indiana.

Total on-road entries - 289
Total stock/19 turn entries - 203
Total mod entries - 86

Over 2/3 of the on-road entries were NOT in an open mod class. I will also add that most of the carpet on-road tracks I've raced at are too small for an open mod motor other than parking lot/nitro tracks.

I'm not sure any manufacturer has ever said that brushless motor were made to level the playing field. If I'm wrong please point me to the article that says that.

You are right, the manufacturers are not saying this, but the technology itself helps to level the playing field. The motors consistently provide the same power from race to race, week to week. And since there is no tuning equipment to buy, or knowledge to learn, new racers can buy the brushless motor and know that they have the same power as everyone else. Since brushless is more efficient, it takes less mAh from your batteries, it's a little less important to have the best batteries. They can now focus on setting up the car and driving skills.

The problem I would have with wattage is who would check the motors to see if they are below the limit? I would think this would turn more into a "buy 10 motors and see what one is closest to 100w" type thing as we know there are manuf. variations? What happens if I buy a 100w motor and it puts out 102w?

If ROAR switched to classification by motor power, they would set the maximum wattage per class. In order for the motors to be ROAR approved, all of the stock motors tested would have to be under 100W (for example). For new motor approvals, if any initial testing or future random testing discovered any over the limit, the motor would be bumped up into the next higher class. Since the manufacturing variance of these motors fluctuates only a little bit (1-2%), it would be easy for manufacturers to make the motors targeted with 95 Watts of power. When abnormally good one comes off the line, it would only be up 1 or 2 more watts, still under the 100W limit.

So if I buy a 95w brushed motor from manufacturer T and I do some dyno tuning and it puts out 105w, then what happens?

From reading some of the posts about the timing on the 4300 motor, wasn't the conclusion that it really didn't make that much of a difference. Even if the motor had a little bit more power/timing/torque, you still have to gear it appropriately. That may mean changing the pinion AND the spur to find the right gear for that particular motor.

The fear is if we set a power limit to determine classes, then people will be buying multiple motors to find the so-called best motor. Will that really be the case? If it is then there will be hoarding, which is a sneaking way of cheating legally. The racer with the most money to buy/find a motor wins. However, that is already going on today.

Here is something else to consider. Check out this thread(http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=160531) talking about brushed motor brushes. Many people take the 1 run and done approach to motor brushes. I only know stock racing, so let's use the CO27 as an example. Tower is selling the CO27 for $29.00 right now. 4499's are going for $3.39 and 767's are going for 2.89. Let's assume that you replace the brush every 2 runs if you are racing, you put in 3 practice runs for a club race, and 3 heats - 1 main. You would have at least used 3 brushes for 1 night of club racing or about $9 in brushes (retail). If you race every weekend, you are spending almost $40 in brushes alone. Let's assume you buy brushes in bulk, you will at least pay $2.00 for a brush x3 a class x4 = $24 a month. Most racers don't have just 1 stock motor, more like 2 or 3 good motors. I'd say the average serious racer has at least $100+ in motors in their pit box and $30+ in brushes at any given time. That doesn't include motor springs, shims, lathes, bits and TIME.

What is my point? I think most brushed racers accept that there is a certain amount of cost involved with racing. I think a lot of people are under the impression that when you switch to brushless that it is a 1 time only purchase. I don't think that is the case. Currently Tower is selling (if they are in stock) the SS4300 for $58. Most of us could easily buy 2 of the 4300 motors and still not have spent as much as we normally do on brushed motors & brushes.

I guess another way to look at this is that even if we DO have to buy more motors to find the best one, we WON'T have to buy brushes/springs/shims/lathe bits to keep it running. Let's face, brushless isn't going to save the average racer that much money. However it will allow him to spend his money buying another motor instead of keeping just 1 running.

Last point. If we can set some kind of limits on power and create a "stock", "spec", or "19-turn" equivalent brushless motor set of rules I think it benefits everyone. Racers will benefit because it will be a fixed cost (no brushes/springs, etc) when they buy new brushless motors to find the best numbers or upgrade to replace worn parts. Manufacturers will benefit because the consumers will still be buying more than one motor and the motors will most likely be at a higher cost than their stock equivalent.

If ROAR switched to classification by motor power, they would set the maximum wattage per class. In order for the motors to be ROAR approved, all of the stock motors tested would have to be under 100W (for example). For new motor approvals, if any initial testing or future random testing discovered any over the limit, the motor would be bumped up into the next higher class. Since the manufacturing variance of these motors fluctuates only a little bit (1-2%), it would be easy for manufacturers to make the motors targeted with 95 Watts of power. When abnormally good one comes off the line, it would only be up 1 or 2 more watts, still under the 100W limit.

This plan is simply not feasible for all the reasons Hank mentioned as well as an even simpler one. Two motors with the same power could run very differently on the track. You're hugely oversimplifying how a motor works.

The power is derived from the rotational velocity and torque. For example, a F1 engine may put out 800 hp by producing 250 lb/ft of torque at 20,000 rpm, a NASCAR engine may put out 800 hp by producing 500 lb/ft of torque at 9,000 rpm.

By your logic these two engines would perform equally on the same track and in the same car. We know this to not be the case.

(Please no one correct the numbers in my post, it was just a simple example.)

So if I buy a 95w brushed motor from manufacturer T and I do some dyno tuning and it puts out 105w, then what happens?
Due to the simple design, the low number of parts inside a brushless motor, and today's manufacturing process being so good, that you won't see variance of 10% more power from one motor to the next. It's more like 1% or less. That's one of the the beauties of brushless. The performance variation is MUCH less than brushed. Especially when it comes to the Neodymium magnets (rare earth). They are consistent, and are not as affected by heat compared to the ceramic magnets.

Many people have posted long term success with brushless performance. I've read post after post where people will race a brushless motor for the season, replace it with a brand new motor only to find the lap times were identical. I read one post where the racer raced brushless for 3 seasons (or years, I can't remember), took the motor into work to test it's magnetic strength on some special gauss meter, and saw that it had only dropped 1% in magnetic strength. The airplane flyers will confirm the same. They've actually been using brushless longer than us.

The fear is if we set a power limit to determine classes, then people will be buying multiple motors to find the so-called best motor. Will that really be the case? If it is then there will be hoarding, which is a sneaking way of cheating legally. The racer with the most money to buy/find a motor wins. However, that is already going on today.

When new technologies arrive, many people get caught up in the excitement, and have high hopes that it will solve things like: level the playing field, prevent cheating, grow the hobby, etc. In reality, new technologies like brushless will help, but not completely solve. It's going to take time, but these are small steps in the right direction.

crate or sealed motors in full size racing does not produce identical results from motor to motor either but those guys don't seem to dwel on that tiny little point. As far as sintered rotors and endbell/bearing upgrades go, yes they are available, Buuuuuut does that mean the tracks have to allow them? I say leave the motor alone! No changes, no modifications, nothing. All of the 4300 motors I have had are the same as far as the clock is concerned. The biggest problem with rc drivers is that they just can't be big enough to admit that another driver had a better set up or just plain out drove them. It's really sad but that's how it is.

Hehe yep, it's a pride issue :)

I have really pushed the brushless from the beginning because I really thought it was a great thing for racers of all diciplines and I still believe that. I just hope the BRL and race tracks accross the country take a stand against making modifications to what we now call stock motors, ie: 4300 and 13.5. The motors are real even when left untouched and that makes for some great racing, racing like we had before the stock comm lathe, lol

Echeconnee, I couldn't agree more!!!!!! Going to the 1st Big Brushless race at Allen's in Springfield, I could see that no motor had any more than the next motor, which is very comforting to most racers, knowing that they aren't being whipped by special motors or brushes, or having to put the motor on kill to compete.


I hope that someone out there is listening to this conversation, because I think it is one of the few hopes to make Oval grow. Sonny has done his part and I think that others have taken notice.

DON'T RUIN A GOOD THING!!!!!!!

I really wish brushless would take off out here on the West coast.

Yea, from all I have read the BRL looks like a great Idea. I think we will pick some ideas up from it as well. We run on caps though and the brushless carry way more speed than on foams so people are not really looking for an upgrade, not on the motor anyway. You must have the chassis right or the motor makes no difference, even if you went from the 4300 to the 5800. I hope all this motor upgrade stuff is halted in 13.5 and 4300 or it will be ruined.

To take a few steps back, aren't we missing a small detail. Who ever said that brushed stock motors are a level playing field. IMO the current crop ranges from sub 20k rpm to nearly 30k nevermind power output. The only thing that I feel makes it its own class is the cost difference from mod and the over all speed (the gap in performance between stock and mod)

As far as tuning a brushless motor you really can't other than to change stators (armatures) to different sizes and materials. There are no parts to modify without changing the original design except for the winds in the can. The biggest improvments you can make to a brushless motor... at least from what I understand of them, is in the switching of the ESC (for sensored type motors) which is where someone like Jim at Tekin or Bob Novak or anyone will differ in the products they produce. Its my opinion that this is the first time in our history that the esc will improve speed more then the motor will. Therefor the only way I think you could really setup a "class" is by switching speed for esc's (switching up to a certain frequency would be "stock" and above would be "mod").

Brian- "Tekin could make a speed control with same capabilities as that of the Novak and LRP but make it smaller"

Knowing Jim from Tekin VERY well, size is not a target of his products. He is of the firm beleif that just because an ESC is smaller doesn't make it better. Not flaming you at all, just wanted to point out that Tekin is more focused on performance and less on size.

Our club recently started a 1/12th Brushless Stock class, and we use the Novak Super Sport 13.5 Stock Brushless motor. However, we do not allow any modifications, rotor must remain stock (except we do allow the single hole to be drilled for oiling the bearing.)

I had an interesting discussion with Jim Campbell, the Prez. Of Tekin, while at the Chicago Hobby Show on where the brushless thing is going.

Next was the current state of the racing orgs. rules. ROAR allows both sensored and sensorless motors. IFMAR only allows sensored motors. ROAR has some certain specs for how the motor is constructed but IFMAR doesn’t. This puts the manufacturer in a bind on what market to make products for as each system has it’s own advantages and disadvantages. This could slow down the introduction of new products.

Hi Hank,

haven't posted on here for quite a long time... You're above statement of the differences between ROAR & IFMAR in regards of brushless is unfortunately wrong!
ROAR, IFMAR and EFRA do use 100% the same set of rules for brushless, there is no differences whatsoever (and definitely none of the federations bans sensorless!).
It has just been the case that everyone choose sensored designs because they performed better in the various car classes then sensorless does or did.

Have a good weekend,
Reto/LRP

We had a "Dyno Night" a while back with 4 racers with 6 motors.Turbo45 dyno,4300 motors connected to a Novak SS speedo. The motors all ran within 5 watts from older motors with a couple seasons on them to new out of the package ones. Timing all the way down to all the way up ranged 3 watts total difference.

I have added a Novak heatsink to my 4300 but still have the original rotor with no complaints. One of my friends put together a $117 version, will see how they compare in a couple weeks.

Phil, that is absolutely great news. We've noticed the same thing with our 13.5 racing. Same power for everyone. This is just another great feature to running brushless.

philb....that $117 motor TQed and won at Omaha.......time to get me one!!! Maybe I can BQ with it!!!!

philb....that $117 motor TQed and won at Omaha.......time to get me one!!! Maybe I can BQ with it!!!!
The TQ time was still a few seconds off last years track record run set with a standard motor and 3800 cells.

Just something to think about. :wave:

Yes Sonny....but it was Mike C so that is saying something!!!:lol:

yeah funny.

Hey, I thought so and I bet others will too.... Tell you what, if I EVER TQ and win a race you can return the favor!!!

We are listening.. when we have time.

We are making a stock brushless motor and agree this is a majority of racing. We have some of the best stock drivers in the country on our team. The challenge is building truly equal motors compared to brushed or between the brushless motors. They simply do not have the current limits of a brushed motor due to the higher number of winds. There are a lot of variables to play with. It is a tough challenge. All we can really do is make our motors and let the public tell us.

To pay for that development we also are building the fastest crazy stuff we can and plenty of moderate modified motors as well. We intend to have something for everybody...

Timing really does not seem to have a huge effect on performance or feel and may be a problem for some race circuits in stock classes.... so we are planning to replace that setting with a 'nuetral width' adjustment. We do listen and our top drivers appear to want that more as well.

The rules will likely change in the near future. The major races have really been put on the spot this year with what they will allow in modified racing. Most including Cleveland and Snowbirds are allowing everything at this point in modified.

Seems odd that the rules went out the window for brushless when they do not allow brushed motors to advance. That being said now is the time for the brushed motor guys to step with the best they can do and show the world. I would have to say if anything brushless goes then the same should be true for brushed... That deserves its own post... because we really want to see brushed survive as shown by our investment in a new line of brushed controllers.

Tekin Prez
Jim Campbell

Jim,

Glad to hear that you are listening. I think it's more than the manufactures providing the equipment. It's the clubs, tracks, and organizations coming together on a format.



I'd like to grow the racer base by showing newbie's that it doesn't have to cost big bucks to be competitive. That the car, motor, and batteries are not going to be out dated in 3 months. Let the factory drivers do all that.



We all have a responsibility to the hobby, and to make it fun and accessible to the "would be racers" as well as the racers we already have.

More racers = more profit, more tracks, more fun. Level the playing field and participation will grow.

Just my 2 cents worth.