just trying to get an idea of people and classes for next season

i ask do to the cost of the brushless setups and want to know how many or planing on running the new class

I put in for pan stock BUT if brushless becomes a real class what can I say but HHHHHHHMMMMMMM

The brushless is going to be faster then stock and I am looking foward to going a little faster. I know me and Andrew will be running it. It will be fun working on setup.

Joe DiGirolamo

Brock I think this is a good thread. Nice Job.

Joe D.

thanks joe see you soon

Don't know yet, depends on which brushless motor.

Hummmmm?

doug
maybe trinity will come out with a birds brushless handout motor. u r good with those handouts, lol

Brock I think this is a good thread. Nice Job.

Joe D.

your welcome brock :wave:

it think the big thing about brushless is whether it will stick around or not. the first week of truck the crowd was huge and now its down to about 12-15 drivers. i cant wait to run brushless and i hope it sticks around.

Andrew D

if brushless is truely easier to work with then ill run it. i hate working on motors

i've never ran the orl before but if there is gonna be a brushless class i might consider it next year.

im with pork if the motors are not a pain im for it but if the big guys are going to replace $80 motors every race then i think im stick to my trusty brush motors

all you guys thinking about brushless, say good by to the motor sponsors...
and the lazy people will JUST get MORE lazy.....
Rember real men use BRUSHES!!!

PUF,
I said the same thing 2 years ago but I see in some TC races brushed motors are still beating brushless set-ups. And with two classes still with brushes it should be fine. You may see more guys run 2 classes with brushless offered.

What ever happened to 19 turn in ORL.

What ever happened to 19 turn in ORL.

mike,
there was never any clean racing in 19turn

doug
maybe trinity will come out with a birds brushless handout motor. u r good with those handouts, lol


I love those handouts, do you think it will have a purple endbell?

Doug

Has the board discussed what the motor of choice will be for the '07 season any further going in the final races for '06?

I'll be running the Brushless, and maybe the brush motor time to time.

Has the board discussed what the motor of choice will be for the '07 season any further going in the final races for '06?

they were thinking of running the 4300

4300 would be nice, more like 19t, and brushed stock I plan on running both as of now. Gotta try for a least 7 races next season ;)

hint: the new novak ss13.5 from novak is rated to be the same as 27turn stock racing

Can I ask where or what ORL is? And if it is a league where do you race?

I love those handouts, do you think it will have a purple endbell?

Doug

Doug, why not try the new 1 brush class. It's a hybrid and you can pick if you want the brush in the + or - slot.

lol, Frankfurt Germany is very nice. I'll be back in 2008.

Frankfurt is awesome got to spend a bit of time there last trip, enjoy it.

See ya' in '08 maybe ;)

as for your ?? signman



well The Outlaw Racing League is a traveling R/C car racing point series that consists of several races held on different tracks once a month through-out the eastern PA, NJ,DE area with each race introducing new challenges for the racers.

its good to see people talking more and more brushless. it should make for even closer racing than it already is.

Check out the ORL at: www.OUTLAWRACINGLEAGUE.com (http://www.outlawracingleague.com/)

Right now we are debating on the motor we will be allowing to be used for the 2007 Brushless class. Either the Novak 4300 or the new Novak 13.5 motor.

http://outlawracingleague.com/ORLBrushlessLogo.jpg
The 13.5 performs like a well prepared brushed stock motor while the 4300 performs a little more than halfway between a stock a good 19t motor. We looked at the results of a few big races that had a stock class, a 19t class and a 4300 brushless class. Basically on average, for example, the stock class would do about 40-41 laps, the 19t class was doing 46 to 47 while the 4300 would do 44-45 laps. The 4300 was giving a nice increase in speed compared to the stock class but not quite the big difference the 19t class can get.

Currently we are leaning towards the 4300. Looking around the country, that seems to be the most popular brushless class. We want to make the final decision this week so please give me your thoughts on the matter. I know there are pros and cons.

One nice thing about using the 13.5 is that all the classes would be the same relative speed which makes practice go a whole hell of a lot smoother. It used to suck practicing with a stock car while 1 or 2 19t guys would be on the track. I'm sure it sucked for them too. Plus the 13.5 is easier to drive and tends to make for much better and competitive racing. Your racing each other rather than just darting from corner to corner. But, this is another debate I could go on and on about.

Ok, on your mark..... get set...... GO.
Let's have it.

Thanks,
Bill

Bill, Another stock class I feel is not needed. Using the 4300 novak brushless motor might move some of the so called big guns out of stock and into the faster brushless class. My vote is for the 4300 Novak motor. :thumbsup:

I think the 4300 would be better. It would be better not having 3 classes going the same speed.

Joe D.

4300!!!!!!!!!!!!

If going with the 4300 it maybe in the series and racers interest to suggest controlled practice at each event.
Should the 13.5 be decided upon with the extra runtime these newer cells have, so I've read anyway, goto 5min heats and mains for it.

all this talk about brushless is driving me crazy!!!!!!!! how about if i just take the brushes out of my stock motor?????? lol

i think that we need a busch class so that all the new drivers
can start some where instead of against all the big guns
that way maybe we could grow the orl instead another
class so the fast guys can eat us up if not i will be forced
into going into other things my vote would be 13.5
full body no cut outs rear .75 spoiler me spec tires
other wise you will have three pro classes no room to expand

well if they run the 4300 then all the speed freaks will go there and will leave the brushclass to mostly rookies. So i SAY GO 4300

19t and open mod classes were offered in previous years. The problem is that there are too many expert level racers around here who choose to run only stock. This left the faster classes too thin, so all the fast guys eventually gravitated to stock.

I don't think brushless will change that. A 4300 class will likely go the same way as 19t, a lot of interest for the first few races and then they'll all be running stock again.

So, the decision is whether to introduce brushless as an entry level class or a pro class. I think the idea was to attract more new racers by creating a sportsmen level class with fewer variables and lower cost. Will all the pro drivers end up in this class? Based on past experience, YES! I'm not sure you can stop this without banning the more experienced racers from those classes.

BRL Rules Package (Part 1)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Racers,

Sorry I’m running behind on finishing the entire BRL rules package. Below is the portion that pertains to the general car, body, battery, motor, electronics and class specifications for the 2006/2007 winter season. I’ve included a quick class summary at the top and detailed rules below.

Specific rules regarding the 2006/2007 BRL/BSR Brushless Oval Tour and format will be posted in the next few days.

I apologize if this is difficult to read on this forum. When posted on our website it will be a more eye pleasing version.



Sportsman Stock
Motor: Novak Super Sport 13.5 (NOV 3413) only.
ESC: Any Novak or LRP brushless speed control
Battery: (4-cell) IB, IP, or GP cells 4200mAh or less
Body: BRL Approved stock car body with spoiler only (.75" maximum). Rear of the body must remain intact (no cut outs)
Height: 4.25"
Weight: 41oz
Race Length: 4-5 Minutes



PRO 4300
Motor: Novak Super Sport 4300 (NOV 3401) only. .
ESC: Any Novak or LRP brushless speed control
Battery: (4-cell) IB, IP, or GP cells 4200mAh or less
Body: BRL approved stock car body with spoiler and wing (rear cut out ok)
Height: 4.25"
Weight: 41oz
Race Length: 4-5 Minutes



Pro Modified

Motor: Any BRL Approved Modified Motors
ESC: Any Novak or LRP or Castle Creations speed control
Battery: (4-cell) IB, IP, or GP cells 4200mAh or less
Body: BRL approved stock car body with spoiler and wing (rear cut out ok)
Height: 4.25"
Weight: 41oz
Race Length: 4 Minutes



General Rules

1.) Rules apply to classes within the BRL and are intended to provide guidelines for fair competition. In the event a rule is not covered in this package the BRL will have the right to adjust or amend rules at any time.

2.) Rules may be revised on an as needed bases

3.) No Person attending a BRL event will have any claim for damages, expenses, lawsuits, or otherwise against a promoter, track operator, BRL, it’s officials, agents, or employees, resulting from any damage to any car, personal injury, on monetary loss of any kind whatsoever. All attendants waive any claim they any have against a promoter, track operator, or the BRL, when they participate in any event being run under these rules.




General Chassis Specifications

Length: 20" Maximum
Width: 9.875 Maximum 7.25 Minimum
Height: 4.25" Minimum
Ride Height: 3/16"
Wheelbase: 11" Maximum 9" Maximum
Weight: 41oz Minimum

Wheels:
Diameter - 2" Maximum 1.625" Minimum
Width - Front 1.25" Maximum Rear 2" Maximum

Tires:
Diameter - 2.6" Maximum
Width - Front 1.25" Maximum Rear 2" Maximum

Single one piece rear drive axle only. (No independent rear suspension) Single speed only


General Body Rules

1.) Bodies used in the BRL are to resemble full sized NASCAR style stock cars.

2.) All bodies used must be on the BRL approved body list.

3.) To be approved new bodies must be submitted to the BRL. Bodies may be submitted throughout the season but must be available through distribution channels for a minimum of 30 days.

4.) Bodies should be neatly finished, painted and or trimmed. Windows which must remain clear. No objectionable or suggestive art, decals, or letter will be permitted.

5.) All car are required to run car numbers on the roof and both doors. Door number must be between the A and C pillars of the body. Numbers must be easily identifiable and must have a contrasting outline.

6.) Numbers may be up to three numerical digits or a combination of numeric number(s) followed by a letter. (Example 15B) Numbers are to be a minimum of 1.75" for a single digit and 1.5" two or three digit numbers letter should be no larger the .75". (The number 1 is not available for the 2006/2007 season. It will be reserved for the previous years BRL class champion)

7.) Wheel cut-outs: Maximum .5" over the tire diameter.

8.) Body should have know sharp edges, corners must be rounded.


BRL Approved Bodies

Bandit: BTP5000, BTP5001, BTP5002, BTP5003

McAllister: 224, 225, 226

Protoform: PRM1223-21, PRM1224-21, PRM1225-21

Windtunnel: 2214, 2235, 2241, 2222, 2242, 2210




Spoilers & Wings

1.) Only single element rear wings allowed

2.) Wings may be mounted to or through the rear window of the body or attached to the deck lid.

3.) Wing Chord or side dams may be no closer then .25" to the rear deck lid.

4.) Wing side dam and or chord may not extend past the rear spoiler.

Wing Dimensions
Chord 3" Maximum
Width 6.5" Maximum
Side Dam Length 3.75" Maximum
Side Dam Height 2.0" Maximum

5.) Spoiler Maximum length .75" measured form the back edge of the rear deck lid.

6.) Spoiler not to extend beyond the width of the body.


Class Specific Body Rules:

Sportsman Stock

1.) Rear of the body must remain intact. (No cutouts). Distance from the ground to the bottom of the rear bumper cover to be no greater then .75".

2.) No wings allowed, spoiler only. Maximum length .75" measured form the back edge of the rear deck lid.

3.) Minimum height 4.25"


Pro 4300/Pro Modified

1.) Rear of the body may be cut out. (Wings and spoilers ok)

2.) Minimum height 4.25"




Battery Rules

1.) Batteries are to be sub-C sized NiMh rechargeable cells rated at 1.2 volts or less and are intended for R/C model car use.

Dimensions
Diameter: Maximum 23mm, Minimum 21.5mm
Length: Maximum 43mm Minimum 41.5mm (Maximum does not include center positive button, total overall length after charging or conditioning not to exceed 44mm.

2.) All cells must be BRL approved.


Approved Cells for the 2006/2007 Winter Season

Great Power GP3700SCHR Rainbow Shrink

Infinite Power IP3800 Red/White & Silver Shrink
IP4200 Red/White & Silver Shrink

Intellect IB3800 Shaded Blue Shrink Wrap
IB4200 Shaded Blue Shrink Wrap
IB4200WC Shaded Blue Shrink Wrap


General Brushless Motor Rules

1). Sensored or sensorless motors are allowed unless specified by class rules.

2.) The motor has to be rebuildable. Ball bearings are allowed.

3.) If the motor is sensored:
It must use a six position JST ZH connector model number ZHR-6 or equivalent
connector with 6 JST part number SZH-002T-PO.5 26-28 awg contacts or equivalent.
Wire sequence must be as follows:
Pin #1- Black wire-ground potential
Pin #2- Orange wire-phase C
Pin #3- White wire-phase B
Pin #4- Green wire-phase A
Pin #5- Blue wire-temp control, 10 k Thermistor referenced to ground potential
Pin #6- Red wire-+ 5.0 volts =/- 10%

For clarification pin #1 is on the left hand side of the above connector with the wires
exiting the top of the connector and the plastic tangs that hold the contacts in the
housing are facing forward.

4.) Compatible sensored speed controls must use the six position JST header part number X-6B-ZRSMX-
TK (where the X denotes the style of the header), or equivalent.
The power connector has to be clearly marked A, B, C. on both speed control and motor.
A for phase A
B for phase B
C for phase C

Can
Overall maximum diameter is 36.02mm measured at whatever point yields the
maximum dimension, excluding solder tabs or lead wires. Overall minimum diameter is 34.00mm measured at whatever point yields the minimum dimension, excluding solder tabs or lead wires. Maximum length is 53.00mm measured from the mounting face of the motor to the furthest most point of the end bell, not including solder tabs, lead wires or original manufacturer’s logo or name. Minimum length is 50.00mm measured from the mounting face of the motor to the furthest most point of the end bell, not including solder
tabs, lead wires or original manufacturer’s logo or name. Motor mounting holes must be on 1.00- inch (25.40mm) centers.

Stack/Stator
Stack minimum length 19.30mm, maximum 21.00mm. Stack inside diameter minimum 12.50mm, maximum 16.00mm. If a stack is used then it must be continuous. The laminations have to be one after the other without anything in between. The thickness of the stack plates is 0.35 +/- 0.05mm. All laminations must be of the same material.

Winding
Only three slot (phase) “Y” wound stators are permitted. No delta wound stators allowed. Only circular (round) pure copper wire permitted. No turn limit.

Rotor
Shaft diameter must be 0.125 inches (3.175mm). Only one piece, two pole Neodymium or Ferrite magnetic rotors are permitted. Magnet minimum length 23.00mm, maximum 27.00mm. Magnet minimum diameter 12.00mm, maximum 15.50mm.

All motors must have the original manufacturer’s logo or name molded into the end bell.

Motors must be available thru major distribution channels for a minimum of 60 days prior to being legal for BRL competition.

5.) No hybrids allowed. (mixing of parts from approved brushless motors unless otherwise specified) \
6.) The maximum retail price of a modified brushless motor shall be $129.00



Approved Motor List

Sportsman Stock

1.) The Novak Super Sport 13.5 Stock Brushless Motor (NOV3413) is the only approved motor of this class.

2.) Material may not be removed form the can or end bell for the purpose of increased ventilation or in an effort to lighten the motor



Pro 4300

1.) The Novak Super Sport 4300 10.5T Stock Brushless Motor (NOV3401) is the only approved motor of this class.

2.) Material may not be removed form the can or end bell for the purpose of increased ventilation or in an effort to lighten the motor

Legal updates for this motor include

NOV5905 4300/5800 Motor Bearing & End Bell Replacement
NOV5906 4300/5800 Motor Replacement Rotor
NOV5908 Velociti Nickel-Plated Sintered Rotor may be used as a replacement for the stock rotor.
NOV5922 SS Brushless Motor Upgrade Kit


Pro Modified

(Note: Modified is open to all brushless motor manufactures providing they meet BRL legal motor specifications. Motors may be added to this list throughout the season.)

Approved Motors Include


Novak:

NOV3400 SS Brushless motor (5800) 8.5T
NOV3003 Velociti 3.5R Racing Motor
NOV3004 Velociti 4.5R Racing Motor
NOV3005 Velociti 5.5R Racing Motor
NOV3006 Velociti 6.5R Racing Motor
NOV3007 Velociti 7.5R Racing Motor

NOV5908 Velociti Nickel-Plated Sintered Rotor ( May be used as a replacement in any Novak Velocitit series motor.)
NOV5919 Velociti Ribbed Bearing & End Bell Replacement
NOV5920 Velocity 5.5R, 6.5R Bearing & End Bell Replacement


Reedy/LRP:

ASC110 Neo-One 1 Star 8.5T
ASC111 Neo-One 3 Star 6.5T
ASC112 Neo-One 2 Star 7.5T
ASC113 Neo-One 4 Star 5.5T




General Electronic Speed Control Rules

1.) Electronic Speed Controls must be available thru major distribution channels for a minimum of 60 days prior to being legal for BRL competition.

2.) Production Electronic Speed Controls Only

3.) The BRL views Electronic Speed Controls (ESC) as an impact item. Although we encourage new manufactures to get involved the BRL feels it is in the best interest of the racers to monitor and control developing ESC technology as it relates to the brushless motor segment. To keep cost form spiraling out of control in the Sportsman Stock and Pro 4300 classes we have approved the following speed controls for use in the 2006/2007 winter season.

Sportsman Stock/Pro 4300

Novak:
NOV3205 Super Sport Brushless ESC
NOV1705 Super Sport Plus Programable Brushless/Brush ESC
NOV1710 GTB Programable Brushless/Brush ESC


LRP:
LRP 80500 Sphere Brushless ESC
LRP 80700 Sphere Competition Brushless


(Note: The BRL will review Impact parts for approval in April and September of each year. New ESC’s will be evaluated over this season and may gain approval for the Sportsman Stock and Pro 4300 in April 2007)


Pro Modified

(Note: Pro Modified is open to all brushless ESC manufactures providing they meet BRL General specifications. ESC’s may be added to this list throughout the season.)

Castle Creations:
CSEMMBMAX Mamba Max ESC


Novak:
NOV3205 Super Sport Brushless ESC
NOV1705 Super Sport Plus Programable Brushless/Brush ESC
NOV1710 GTB Programable Brushless/Brush ESC


LRP:
LRP 80500 Sphere Brushless ESC
LRP 80700 Sphere Competition Brushless

just something to look at bill and guys this is from a brushless league in the midwest

19t and open mod classes were offered in previous years. The problem is that there are too many expert level racers around here who choose to run only stock. This left the faster classes too thin, so all the fast guys eventually gravitated to stock.

I don't think brushless will change that. A 4300 class will likely go the same way as 19t, a lot of interest for the first few races and then they'll all be running stock again.

So, the decision is whether to introduce brushless as an entry level class or a pro class. I think the idea was to attract more new racers by creating a sportsmen level class with fewer variables and lower cost. Will all the pro drivers end up in this class? Based on past experience, YES! I'm not sure you can stop this without banning the more experienced racers from those classes.
Greg, I believe your only half right. I think MOD never caught on due to expense. You could eat a ton of tire every run, that gets expensive. Mod motors do cost more, and racers look at that area also.

I do believe with any form of racing, its expensive! I dont think there is going to be a good way to make entry level, mid level and a pro level.

Any way you look at it, its a very tough road, and a solution is going to be difficult to find!

What if you looked at the past years points in stock? Take so many as a cutoff and determine that those chosen few have to move on towards a diffrent route, what ever that may be?

Beach

What if you looked at the past years points in stock? Take so many as a cutoff and determine that those chosen few have to move on towards a diffrent route, what ever that may be?

Beach

how can you tell someone what they can and cant run.
1 of the main reasons i like stock is they race it on a regular bassis just about everywhere. i do plan on running brushless but i do plan on running stock also. bring on the 4300's

alan behler
rip motorsports
jbr cells
orc
finishline

Here's what I like about stock racing.

Its the first and pretty much only class I have run since I have been racing (roughly 13 years). I liked the speed then and now 13 years later the four cell stock cars are as fast if not faster than 13 years ago. Back then there was no shame in running stock and it was at least at my home track the biggest class week in and week out. I am happy with the speed or I would have went to 19 turn or mod. I dont run the class to cherry pick but because of the close racing and minimal carnage in the mains. Hove many 19 turn and mod mains can that be said about. Remember Ontrax this year at the state race. Faster is not always better in some cases. Stock is simpler to set-up, drive, and correct if you get into trouble on the track.
I know there is interest in brushless but which brushless to run is hard to say in my opinion when I have never seen either of the two 13.5 or 4300 on the track.
I would like to think we wont make a the decision to quickly and then say its to late to change seeing as the first race is almost five months away.

Here's what I like about stock racing.

Its the first and pretty much only class I have run since I have been racing (roughly 13 years). I liked the speed then and now 13 years later the four cell stock cars are as fast if not faster than 13 years ago. Back then there was no shame in running stock and it was at least at my home track the biggest class week in and week out. I am happy with the speed or I would have went to 19 turn or mod. I dont run the class to cherry pick but because of the close racing and minimal carnage in the mains. Hove many 19 turn and mod mains can that be said about. Remember Ontrax this year at the state race. Faster is not always better in some cases. Stock is simpler to set-up, drive, and correct if you get into trouble on the track.
I know there is interest in brushless but which brushless to run is hard to say in my opinion when I have never seen either of the two 13.5 or 4300 on the track.
I would like to think we wont make a the decision to quickly and then say its to late to change seeing as the first race is almost five months away.
Well said Bill. There are a few guys running the series that HATE stock, I frankly like the stock racing, the fact it is setup, and not horrible mains is a plus!

Beach

how can you tell someone what they can and cant run.
1 of the main reasons i like stock is they race it on a regular bassis just about everywhere. i do plan on running brushless but i do plan on running stock also. bring on the 4300's

alan behler
rip motorsports
jbr cells
orc
finishline[/QUOTE]
Alan, chill! It was just a suggestion!! Sorta like a breakout class!

What about the problem with stators exploding and cutting the thermal wire to get that little extra? Brussless could get just as costly IMO.

I think we are planning a little to far in the future. I know guys wanna know and all but with all these new systems coming up and systems in the testing stages i think it is going to be to hard to pick right know. Cause what if tekin comes out with the prefect setup then we all bought the 13.5 or the 4300 and there no good. Also i think maybe some of the top guys like bill A and John b and Al s. etc should maybe try to find one of these 4300 units and actually try it and run it to see.since so far all we have went by are lap times at other events.

What about the problem with stators exploding and cutting the thermal wire to get that little extra? Brussless could get just as costly IMO.

Great to see you guys thinking about brushless. I know you have some great racers in your part of the country. Let me try to help answer some questions for you.

Some drivers in the Midwest have been running the Novak 4300's for almost 3 years. (For the record I started last season) I’ve not seen or heard of any rotor failures in a pan car. Some of the Mod touring car guys (cars with very high load) have had issues but for the most part they have been low winds and non Novak systems.

Bob probably won’t like me saying this but as far as the blue temp wire yes it is common to remove or cut this wire when using on a Novak ESC. Warning This will void your motor warranty. The Novak motor temp sensor is set much lower the LRP version. (About 175 degrees on the Novak and over 200 on the LRP) The main reason for the temp sensor is so that the back yard bashers do not over temp the motor for an extended period of time (10 - 15 minutes). In a 4 or 5 minute race unless you have something extremely over geared or bound up in the drive line the motor will most likely not exceed the temp limit until the last 30 seconds of the race.

Having said that more temperature does not mean more speed. Most of the fast guys last season figured out a well set up car will see post race motor temp between 145 to 160 degrees produced the best results. (ESC temps would be in the 100 degree range) The same rollout on a car that was not working as well would see temp in the 185 range at the end of a run.

If you were to repeatedly and for extended duration exceed 180 degrees with the standard rotor the magnet will weaken over time. Inserting a new rotor for about $28 will make it good as new.

Here are a few facts to consider:

*The motor and rotor that one the Midwest Brushless Oval Challenge last year had about 15 race days on it or almost 8 hrs of run time.

*Two of the car in the MBOC A-main had motors that were over 2 years old.

*Out of 96 racers all running the same Novak 4300 motor no one ever complained or commented about someone having a faster motor.


To give you a speed comparison a good 4300 car is about .05 of second slower then a good 19T car. We don’t yet have a full picture on the 13.5 motors but most have said the feel like a well tuned stock motor and early testing has seen them run about .4 to .5 slower then a 4300 car.

As for rollout suggestion on carpet this is what worked for me last season with a 4300.

130' track (Allen’s R/C in Springfield, IL) between 2.40 - 2.50
190' track ( Hobbytown Hobbyplex Omaha, NE) between 2.75 and 2.85




If you have any questions or concerns post them or send me an e-mail at sbrown15@insightbb.com

Mr. Henning,

Am I taking the 2007 SPEED Tour as a hint to the format for next season?:dude:

Truck= 27t stk motors
Brushless= NOVAK 13.5
PRO CUP= 27t Stk motors

See ya'
JB

Thanks Sonny Great info.

I think we are planning a little to far in the future. I know guys wanna know and all but with all these new systems coming up and systems in the testing stages i think it is going to be to hard to pick right know. Cause what if tekin comes out with the prefect setup then we all bought the 13.5 or the 4300 and there no good. Also i think maybe some of the top guys like bill A and John b and Al s. etc should maybe try to find one of these 4300 units and actually try it and run it to see.since so far all we have went by are lap times at other events.

Al S. ?????????????????????:jest: