http://www.trektoday.com/news/280806_04.shtml

I know some people won't like this. I completely understand that. I'll also be lining up to buy these, assuming they do a good job. Heck, if it's as good a job as was done on the mirror universe Enterprise episdoes I'll be happy!

Brad.

As long as the original effects are still available, I won't say a word.

Hopefully they change the Constellation to NCC-1710.

The original Star Trek is being remastered for future high defintion television syndication as well as eventual release on HD-DVD with new high-definition CG effects.

The Digital Bits reported the story in its Rumor Mill column, which reported previously that CBS Video, which now owns the Star Trek DVDs, was planning to retransfer the original series from film to HD-DVD. All of the Star Trek feature films will be rereleased for HD release as well.

Bill Hunt noted that he learned from industry sources that CBS is redoing many of the original series special effects using new CG techniques. "Specifically, they're re-doing all of the spaceship shots," he wrote. "This to me is a very exciting idea...in principle. As anyone who saw the Mirror Universe episodes of Star Trek: Enterprise will tell you, the old TOS ships look awfully damn good in new CG."

However, Hunt added, CBS is doing this CG work in-house and it is not yet known whether any of Star Trek's longtime effects wizards have worked on the new versions of the episodes. "I tried contacting CBS and their DVD distributor, Paramount, on this subject last week, but there was basically no comment," stated Hunt.

...and they'll make the Klingons shoot first.

This is potentially very lame, potentially very no big deal. Part of the thing is, CBS/VIACOM/Whoever really doesn't have a huge interest in the execution of this idea beyond meeting certain general goals. The people who will care a lot though, can easily be greatly annoyed depending on what they do, and how they do it. That said, I have no idea who's in charge and who's involved. I hope it's awesome! :)

Well...as we were discussing on another board, there is a big problem. TNG/DS9/Voy were all done with video F/X and film of the actors. With TOS out there in HD, what are they going to do with those? Redoing the F/X for 21 seasons of Trek would be a total mess...

As previously discussed in the "Science Fiction & Star Trek Modeling Forum" a couple months back, I don't have a problem with it if it's done to the point where it's the exact same scenes, just re-done w/CGI and updated to look more in-line w/the Defiant from "Through a Mirror, Darkly..."

Obviously, this'll upset a lot of folks, but I still don't understand why since it will possibly get some new fans to TOS. I mean, how many times have we heard "I don't watch that show 'cause the SFX are too dated/hoaky/whatever." If they've got updated FX those folks might be drawn to the STORIES that were told. And after all, isn't that what Trek is all about, more than anything - the stories? It shouldn't take away from folks if the stories themselves aren't changed.

As a caveat, tho, I'd like the original episodes to remain as-is and availble for purchase.

Hopefully they change the Constellation to NCC-1710.
Oh, gawd... The crying, wailing and gnashing of teeth is going to be bad enough from the die-hard purists. If they change the registry it'll only be louder and longer - and now with 35% more gnashing!

I'm surprised there haven't been more complaints posted yet ... I can only conclude that those who would be most likely to complain suffered an instantaneous head explosion as soon as they read the news!

Qapla'

SSB

Will the Constellation be a CG version of the AMT model? ;) LOVIN' IT!

Heck, if it's as good a job as was done on the mirror universe Enterprise episdoes I'll be happy!

Brad.
If it looks like it was done on ENT or DS9 then I will truly weep inconsolably. :cry:

Wonder what they would with the episode with the
Doomsday machine? It'd be cool to see it actually cutting up a planet for fuel.
AND I would hope when the explosion from the warp core would look better than
a co2 fire extingisher.

O.K.
I'll gnash my teeth.

This is the problem with updating the effects:

The Lucas Syndrome.

Someone in charge somewhere will decide to alter the content.

They'll start with little things, like the Constellation's
registry number.

Then, the editor will decide a shot is too long (in his opinion) and trim
a little.

Then, a scene will have a line he feels is unnecessary and cut it.

Soon, the original story will no longer exist.


When the "New and Improved!" versions are released, the original
versions will disappear, no longer to be marketed.

I say that because of the current policy on the movies. The original
theatrical versions can't be bought, only the special edition, or
director's version. (I mentioned this once before in another thread and had
an incredulous response thrown at me "Shouldn't the Director's vision
be what we get?!!" or some such drivel.)

I want the original "As originally broadcast" versions to be available.
Someday, I will be able to buy them all, and I want them around
to do so. I don't need hyper-accurate special effects to enjoy the
story.

Besides, I think they did a pretty good job originally. A gritty, grainy
picture of the ship flying by looks good.

If it isn't broke, DON'T FIX IT!!

I want the original "As originally broadcast" versions to be available.
Someday, I will be able to buy them all, and I want them around
to do so. I don't need hyper-accurate special effects to enjoy the
story.

Besides, I think they did a pretty good job originally. A gritty, grainy
picture of the ship flying by looks good.

Totally agree. And I say that as a non-Trekkie who merely appreciates the fact that "Star Trek" was "good television". I don't need to see "better effects" in "Star Trek" any more than I need to see a "better set" of the Kramden's apartment in "The Honeymooners".

the current policy on the movies. The original
theatrical versions can't be bought, only the special edition, or
director's version.Spielberg included both versions of E.T. in the DVD release ...

Qapla'

SSB

And, IIRC, Lucas is going back and releasing the first three Star Wars movies in their original editions - Han shot first! - w/o all the extra stuff.

What gets me is that while I can argue with what Lucas did to his work I must say that it was his to change. He was the creator. But CBS (who ironically turned down GR before NBC picked up Star Trek) and Paramount never created one frame of TOS. It was GR and his production team at Desilu who created all their magic. But sadly none of those talented folks are with us any longer to offer their views on what should or should not be done or in the least what they would like to have done.

I gave this a lot of thought last night and while my basic position hasn't changed I have reflected on other possibilities.

- Although it's certainly possible to retouch or redo TOS' f/x the thing is that to do it properly entails far more than just redoing the space shots. You'd really have to go over every frame to retouch all the little details to make it look right. That's a massive undertaking of time and effort. Otherwise it won't look all of a piece and integrated. Contemporary style f/x (a la contemporary Trek) will stick out like a cartoony sore thumb mixed in with TOS' live action shots no matter how extensively cleaned up. The goal is towards more realism and less hyper-realism of contemporary Trek.
- The best result would be to make the new footage look more like it could have been done originally if they had had sufficient time and money. Essentially as if TOS had had a '60s feature film budget and production schedule. That way you could have sharper and clearer shots that would looke well integrated with the rest of the live-action clean-up footage.
- Aliens could be retouched to the same extent as space ship f/x by making them look as if the budget and resources of a feature film had been available. In such case something like a mugato would like better because it would echo the calibre of the make-up and costuming seen on something like the original Planet Of The Apes. It would mean a new Gorn, Horta, Excalibian and whatever else that look somewhat more credible yet still retaining the original intended concept/design of the creatures.
- Whenever possible use the same visual sequence as the original as a template. However, in such cases where the original shot/sequence does not follow the logic of the story then it may be possible to insert something new that still echoes the filiming style of the original. Meaning you won't have ships whizzing around like they do in contemporary Trek.
- This also means that you can do something new that respects what the original creators would have wanted all along. 1. A ship that evidently has both sides completed. 2. That you no longer need stock shots of the pilot version of the E when it sould really be the production version seen onscreen. This includes the opening credits. The exception is, of course, in the episodes of WNMHGB and sequences in "The Menagerie" where the pilot version should be seen exclusively.
- A new U.S.S. Constellation would no longer look like an obvious AMT model kit but rather a wrecked version depicted in the same style as the Enterprise. You resist designing a new-and-improved doomsday machine and simply enhace the existing design. You'd also correct to convey a more credible scale between starship and robot.

There are, of course, numerous other things to address, but the essential point is that if this were to be done right then you cannot do it in half measure. You don't do something just to be kewl, but rather to follow the logic of the story. Done this way it would stand a much better chance of appealing to a broader spectrum of fans and viewers and swaying more of the harsher critics.

Do it with respect.

And finally go the distance and include the original versions to be available right alongside the enhanced versions.

Spielberg included both versions of E.T. in the DVD release ...


As I undesrstand it, that was only if you bought the more expensive boxed set, which didn't remain on the market. The disc available now has only the altered version.

Foolish me, I thought I'd have more time to pick the thing up and missed out on it.

Besides the aesthetic and philosophical objections to this, if these "enhancement" are supposed to make the show more acceptable to younger (or just narrow-minded) audiences, I think it will fail for the same reason colorization did. The difference between shows made in the '60s and those made in the '00s does not boil down to the quality of the special effects. If the effects are upgraded, people will still complain about the cardboard and styrofoam sets, the funhouse lighting, the theatrical acting, the slow pace, the lack of flashy camera moves and editing effects. The fact is that the only way to make the show look like a modern show and therefore in the comfort zone of your typical teenager is to remake the shows from scratch.

People shouldn't have any problem with this, should they? After all, it's the story that matters.

Of course, if it's only the story that matters, why even release the show? Just sell synopses of the episodes.

I agree with Warped9. What I think we are apprehensive about is that we know they probably won't put in the effort, time and money. The ironic thing is that there would be people out there with the talent who would (almost) do it for free.



I would have no problem with a completely new series TOS remake. Don't like it, don't buy it. Big shoes to fill though.

Do it with respect.

That's where the proof lies and, well, I'm not optimistic. That's why I will not fret provided the originals are still available.

What some people forget is most of us would complain about a fan's effort. It's all fine and good when it's someone's personal project..... :)

I'm surprised there haven't been more complaints posted yet ... I can only conclude that those who would be most likely to complain suffered an instantaneous head explosion as soon as they read the news!

Qapla'

SSB

I've worn myself out arguing against this over at trekBBS.com for the last couple of years. I'm too tired.

Even as a non-trekkie, I have to offer an opinion (I have an opinion on EVERYTHING :) ).

I want to use one of my famous analogies. I drive a 1968 Triumph which, honestly, looks a little beat up. It's complete, original, runs nice, no rust..but the paint is faded and cracked, the chrome is dull and it's seen better days. The wheels and tires are especially bad. For some years, replacing the wheels has been at the top of my priority list but I haven't done it. Why? Because if I put a set of brand new, upgraded wheels on the car, they will instantly look out of place and they'll probably make my car look even more beat up. I notice this myself at car shows all the time. When you put nice wheels on a beater, it just draws attention the fact that you have mismatched pieces. When you have an original, you either keep it all original or restore the whole thing. Fixing bits of it rarely works.

Can you put modern, enhanced effects on a 40 year old TV show and do so in such a way as to NOT draw attention to the mismatch? I have my doubts about that. I strongly suspect that any alteration to ANY old show will result in people watching it and saying, "Look, here's where they added the new stuff...".

and his name is Rob Bonchune

You know him, you love him and I trust him to not get all "lucas-y" on it


So say me all :cool:

Besides the aesthetic and philosophical objections to this, if these "enhancement" are supposed to make the show more acceptable to younger (or just narrow-minded) audiences, I think it will fail for the same reason colorization did. The difference between shows made in the '60s and those made in the '00s does not boil down to the quality of the special effects. If the effects are upgraded, people will still complain about the cardboard and styrofoam sets, the funhouse lighting, the theatrical acting, the slow pace, the lack of flashy camera moves and editing effects. The fact is that the only way to make the show look like a modern show and therefore in the comfort zone of your typical teenager is to remake the shows from scratch.

People shouldn't have any problem with this, should they? After all, it's the story that matters.

Of course, if it's only the story that matters, why even release the show? Just sell synopses of the episodes.
Oh, for Fun's Sake. Here we go again w/the Pot calling the Kettle black! Narrowminded indeed.... :rolleyes:

I self-censored myself on this thread because the hostile reaction I got the last time I posted on this, but yes. I stand by narrow-minded. Soemeone who refuses to watch TOS because of the "crummy effects" is narrow-minded. Someone who expects everything tailored to their tastes and expectations instead of adjusting their expectations to the material are narrow-minded. And if this enhancement of the effects isn't pandering to them, I don't see the point.

As for myself, I have no problem with someone creating something new with the material. I have no problem with deconstructing a story to show what was really happening like that Tribble episode of DS9. If someone wants to Tiger Lily an episode with new dialogue, I have no objection. I wouldn't even have an objection to reviving the original show, even if they made the same type of wholesale changes the new BATTLESTAR GALACTICA. (At least I wouldn't object if it was done well.)

What I do object to is trying to make the show into something it isn't. Let's face it, the effects are the least of the show's "flaws." Here's an idea. Let's make a list of all the things they should change to the show to make it less "dated." I'll start:

1) Replace that sliderule Spock is fiddling with in a couple of the early episodes with something more futuristic.

2) Fix the dialogue in the various episodes where they refer to the past to make the time period the show is set in more consistent. Various episodes seem to place it anywhere from the late 22nd to late 23rd century.

Again w/the Narrow-Minded thinking that just 'cause someone else would like to see the SFX updated that we're apparentely quite narrow-minded, thus not terribly brightk, intelligent, whatever other intellectual snobbery you can you can throw out there.

That get's the "Whatever!" Award of the Day...

If it isn't broke, DON'T FIX IT!!

Problem is,..........

Its broke.


:devil:
Of course thats a matter of opinion. And I intentionally said that about the Constellation registry number to push a few peoples buttons.

Actually, I've been hoping they'd redo the ST effects for over 10 years now.
About that time, I thought it would be fun to try and redo and episode of effects for myself. And more recently, much like the CG artist who did "Star Trek - Enhanced" I've been trying to learn LW so I could attempt such an alteration myself. Though it was always inevitable that someone more CG savvy would beat me to it.

Star Trek is definatly important to a lot of people. And if you can only handle it in its original form, thats Ok. And if your looking forward to something a little more refined, thats Ok as well.
But what shouldn't be done, is for a few to squash the attempt.
And finally, I you don't like what CG shots ARE done - Redo it yourself. With todays computer power and available software, its not out of reach.
All it takes is the desire.

Again w/the Narrow-Minded thinking that just 'cause someone else would like to see the SFX updated that we're apparentely quite narrow-minded, thus not terribly brightk, intelligent, whatever other intellectual snobbery you can you can throw out there.

That get's the "Whatever!" Award of the Day...
I've yet to hear a reason why someone wants to see it with updated effects. The only explanation I can come up with is a desire to have everything fit one's personal taste and aesthetic sensibility. If there's a nobler reason for it, I'd like to hear it.

How's this for reimaging TOS?

Don't stop with replacing the effects, replace the entire show with CGI!

Keep the sound track and music. Just line up the dialog.

If I recall (but I may be wrong) I don't remember hearing anyone "belly ache" over the added CGI effects in the "Star Trek The Motion Picture Directors Cut" :thumbsup: :)

I've yet to hear a reason why someone wants to see it with updated effects. The only explanation I can come up with is a desire to have everything fit one's personal taste and aesthetic sensibility. If there's a nobler reason for it, I'd like to hear it.
Bull. You've gotten several people's reasons why. You just think they're "narrow-minded" so dismiss them out of hand. Besides, other folks don't have to explain themselves to you.

Thankfully, it doesn't have to be done for your definition of the word "noble", which I ironically find to be rather narrow-minded judging by your comments on this topic in past posts.

If I recall (but I may be wrong) I don't remember hearing anyone "belly ache" over the added CGI effects in the "Star Trek The Motion Picture Directors Cut" :thumbsup: :)
Actually I recall hearing a lot of belly-aching over that. But if they can make new TOS f/x look like what was done in the TMP DE then things mayn't be so bad.

C'mon guys STOP IT! Before this thread ends up closed too! :drunk:

Yes, I, too remember a lot of the same "belly-aching" - BEFORE the TMP-DE set came out. I don't think the results we got were really all that bad, tho think they could have been done better. For the TOS CGI FX update, I'd love to see the FX Company from ENT do them, specifically the folks that Rob Bonchune worked with on "Through a Mirrow, Darkly..." They showed a great deal of love and respect for TOS while also showing how much more beautiful the Constitution-class can look with some updated FX.

As said previously, if it's done with respect for the source material, the only honest complaining anyone can make is one of aesthetics.

God, I cannot stand how the ship looked in ENT or in DS9's T&T. It looked totally unconvincing. Better to go with how things were done in the TMP DE.

As said previously, if it's done with respect for the source material, the only honest complaining anyone can make is one of aesthetics.

Nope. It's not a matter of aesthetics. It's a matter of intent. It's a matter of authenticity. It's a matter of congruity.

aesthetics. intent. authenticity. congruity.
Please some of us r simple minded folk.............
English please. :p

I can see this discussion is not going to end well, so I'll just apologize for my at times hyperbolic language and step away.

I'll just say this. These changes are going to be made or not no matter of what any of us think. It won't be the worse crime the owners of the franchise have committed.

I would like to see it done because I was thrilled with the results of the Mirror universe Enterprise episodes. I love The Doomsday Machine as my all time favorite episode despite the clunky effects. The new shots will, to me, enhance the show enough that my son and wife won't roll their eyes when I force them to watch it with me yet again! I suggest, again, that if you don't want to see the updated effects episodes, don't buy them. As with all things in America, the market will decide.

I've yet to hear a reason why someone wants to see it with updated effects. The only explanation I can come up with is a desire to have everything fit one's personal taste and aesthetic sensibility. If there's a nobler reason for it, I'd like to hear it.

God, I cannot stand how the ship looked in ENT or in DS9's T&T. It looked totally unconvincing. Better to go with how things were done in the TMP DE.

T&T used physical models, and the E was pretty darn big - probably in the 4-5 foot range. Can't blame CGI if you didn't like it. Blame the fact that TNG, DS9 and Voyager used crappy videotape F/X transfers rather than film or HD digital elements. ParaBorg/CBS is in for a big job if they ever want to release those three series in HD - all of the F/X will need to be redone. For 21 seasons of Trek. :freak:

Remember the scene in Clockwork Orange where M.M. was forced to watch all that film footage?

:freak:

That might be fun with some of the people here.

Hey, what I do for kicks on a Saturday night.


If you don't want to watch it. Don't buy it.

Go build a model.

...that we're apparentely quite narrow-minded, thus not terribly brightk...



Well, THAT's an unfortunate spot for a typo! ;)

(just bustin' ya, Jeff)

How's this for reimaging TOS?

Don't stop with replacing the effects, replace the entire show with CGI!

Keep the sound track and music. Just line up the dialog.

I understand they're talking about changing the music too. Seriously, I read that in a thread on TrekBBS.

If they do upgrade the effects at all, I hope it is mainly to clean up the shots, complete the shots (where parts of a model are missing or the matte line is visible, etc.). Beyond that, if they were to make the shots all of the production version (in the episodes after the pilots) I wouldn't complain.

I'd rather they not add too much in terms of special effects (except for one or two episodes perhaps released as special editions) since the story lines won't always call for a lot of special effects.

Just my druthers.

I got bad news (well, depending on your perspective). Apparently CBS has been working on this for quite some time and it's been confirmed in TV guide. They're also going to be re-recording the music. And finally a picture of their new cgi Enterprise is out. I don't have the links yet because I'm dropping in here for a second, but everything was posted on the three different threads running on this topic on the TrekBBS.

Re: the "new" cgi Enterprise

IMO it looks better than what was seen in ENT or DS9, but not as good as I'd have hoped. It looks too plastic like and seems to lack the sense of scale and mass the old 11 footer conveyed on screen. Of course we'll really have to see more images and some of them of the ship in action to get a better idea. But to me it looks as if they're trying for a look that is more consistent with the f/x of contemporary Trek.

And the more I ponder this the more I'm disturbed by it. It's akin to rewriting history just to suit current sensibilities rather than looking at it as it actually happened.

everybody seems focused on the Enterprise, but tell me you wouldn't like to see improved versions of the giant space amoeba or the fesarius or even the giant Apollo Hand.

How about "better" shots of the Romulan warbird? Do you think that they might replace the D-7's in "the Enterprise Incedent" with actual Romulan ships and lose that line about them using Klingon ships (which they only did cuz they had lost the warbird model by then)

How about the M-5 wargame battle with multiple starships and not the same stock shot ( x4 ) of the enterprise?

I for one am looking forward to the "new" series

This sounds scary: http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/news/article/23775.html