Let me get this straight,
We have a "new" Manufacturer of pancake cars. mag and non mag. Tons of folks buying them. Just as many folks tinkering with them. and.......

No Big Races!

I really think there needs to be a BIG race for these cars. I envision an oval based race with teams. Much like the "Fray" in Ferndale. Heats, consis and mains. All day deal. Let's say six tracks to start.

Let's get going on this deal and see what happens. Maybee the Indy guys can step up for a middle of the country showdown!

Tom, are you listening?

Tim Leppert

What about this?

http://www.fsmra.com/QCQ05.html

or this?

http://vintagehoracing.mr-bigstuff.com/

I'm VERY familiar with both of these races. They don't allow any new chassis. They are both great events, but they lack the ability to try the new against the old.

I think with just a few allowable alterations, J.Ls wouls be a great chassis to race.

Tim Leppert

Tim we race 'em quite often, just like anything you gotta learn the cars to be competitive with them. We try to keep it near stock except for tires, basically allowing changes where know defects are common, for example allowing Aurora/AFX rear axles. You should see the faces when we run strict right down to the shoes! It really brings back the good times, where what you know in your head can be worth a lot more than the $$ you dump into your car.


Oh yeah, forgot to mention it brings in a ton of racers. We usually average one or two new faces a month!

:)

I think it just comes down to someone stepping up and making it happen. If you're implying that Tom should take this on, that may be asking too much of one person. I would like to see a Big Race, but something markedly different than any of the current big races. I'm thinking something along the lines of a weekend conference/fest that brings hobbyists from the collecting and modeling sides together with the racers. Different classes of races could be intermixed with collecting and modeling how-to sessions. Make the race part of the event, not the only focus of the event.

I was not trying to get Tom to take on the whole project, but maybe an endorsment would suffice to get the ball rolling.
I mentioned Indy 'cause it's central, and they have a good sized hobby community there. K.C. would be the best, Hell maybe I could try to get something going. I have enough Tomy track for three, six lane ovals now.

Just jabberin'
Tim

We don't need Tom's endorsement to make anything happen. I have confidence that Tom would support any event that featured his products. But the collective influence of the HobbyTalk Community and its supporters can make something big happen regardless of a blessing from Tom. I think whatever is done should be beneficial to a much wider set of slot car enthusiasts than just a once a year Big Race. A large number of AW fans are collectors.

But if you really think an endorsement is needed for anything to happen, here it is:

So, grab your mouse, join the Club and let's get RACING!

-- taken from the AW web site.

I'm VERY familiar with both of these races. They don't allow any new chassis. They are both great events, but they lack the ability to try the new against the old.
I think with just a few allowable alterations, J.Ls wouls be a great chassis to race.
Tim Leppert

No problem. It can start with you... Invite some people over, bash out some rules and do it!
Scott

O.K.
We will start with the T.J. 500 chassis.
As I see it there could be a VERY short set of rules orbiting this chassis:
#1 Box stock Chassis & body
#2 Ballance the arm
#3 any wheels and axles
#4 Any single compound tires
#5 any of the "big four" pickup shoes (J.L., Stock T-Jet, AML, BSRT.)
No oTher mods.

Flame away!
Tim Leppert

Tim, that sounds like a good start.

What about max width? I'm not a fan of the go-kart look with TJets. But even the stock wheels and tires won't fit under most stock bodies. Something a little less grotesque than the Fray look would be more to my liking. Limiting max width would reel in that aspect.

Tim I'd take away balancing the arm and specify slip-ons. Balancing arms will open up the door to other modifications, and in itself can become an arguable grey area. We've been getting a lot of our JL cars to run unbelievably fast and smooth in stock form, just gotta identify and tweak the problem areas. In our last JL race, we had a guy who purchased his car an hour before the race, played around with it, and wound up in second place. He was a 1/32 racer who never raced an HO car in his life.

...that's the kind of stuff that needs to happen.
:)

As far as the ballancing goes, I'd just spell out the method (removing matl. only)
And for the width, I was thinking 1.3125 at first, 'cause when you take the width away the handling goes too. I would much rather have a good race than a good looking race car.
Also, the participation goes down when you change too many things. (like width)

Remember, there are going to be more than just one class!

Tim Leppert

We will start with the T.J. 500 chassis.
As I see it there could be a VERY short set of rules orbiting this chassis:
#1 Box stock Chassis & body
#2 Ballance the arm
#3 any wheels and axles
#4 Any single compound tires
#5 any of the "big four" pickup shoes (J.L., Stock T-Jet, AML, BSRT.)

Flame away!
Tim Leppert[/QUOTE]

Ok good start.
Add to that:
#5.a No ski style shoes
#6 Tuff Ones width (1.25") Note, not the exact Tuff Ones width but close

Keep it going...

Tim maybe a good idea that would show how the rule would affect participation would be to start out with 2 classes, "Stock" and "Super Stock", keeping the cars basically the same but allowing for balancing and silicone-sponge tires in SS?

Weighted front ends??? If so, maximum weight of car???

I would actually vastly prefer the XT chassis as the first foray into a racing class for the AW cars. We already have a lot of big TJet races. Ho hum, another Fray Clone. Not that I'd rule out TJets, but for 80% of the population the T in TJet stands for Tedious. Far more novice racers can make an XT competitive without resorting to exotic parts that end up costing 3X+ the cost of the basic platform. We don't need more elitist oriented racing classes, we need more accessible racing classes for the average enthuisiast.

I would like to stay away from the spongies, if at all possible (Single compound silicones are slip ons)
Wieght is not an issue on the high side, I would weigh the bodies seperatly(SP) Everyone is running the same chassis, the weight on that will be in parity. Yes I know there are different weighted front ends, as there are rears (more of what I play with) I think the cream will rise to the top when you consider the gains.

As far as classes go, I would think about a skinny tired calss for these cars, max tire width of 1/8th and max o.a. width of 1 1/8 any wheels and single compound silicones.

Let's keep it going,
Tim

I'd have to disagree with the direction this is going, especially if it is to become a recognized standard for club racing that is to be endorsed by the manufacturer. When you start talking balanced arms, weight restrictions, widths to the .0001", even the spongies I mentioned, you probably just turned off 3/4 of the people who buy and/or race these cars. Before you know it someone will suggest that only Aurora magnets be allowed.

In all seriousness though, these are affordable cars that can be very competitive. The last thing I'd want to see happening is "Fray madness" bastardizing what are two very enjoyable and most importantly current formats. The Fray is a unique concept, very cool in itself but it disturbs me that the concept became the rules for T-Jet classes throughout the country, when the fact is that the cars are anything but a T-Jet.

I really have to stick with take them out of the box, tweak 'em a little, and have at it.

Weighted front ends??? If so, maximum weight of car???

Naw.... If you do this then people will stretch the pick up springs for more speed...

Was just wondering...But I'd love to see an XT/MT class of races. Only allow slip-on silicones, and the abilty to replace faulty rims, axles, wheels to get them running smooth.

I'd have to disagree with the direction this is going, especially if it is to become a recognized standard for club racing that is to be endorsed by the manufacturer. When you start talking balanced arms, weight restrictions, widths to the .0001", even the spongies I mentioned, you probably just turned off 3/4 of the people who buy and/or race these cars. Before you know it someone will suggest that only Aurora magnets be allowed.

I was only trying to stick with the norms, I know of alot more 1 5/16 tech blocks than 1 1/4.
As far as tires go, I was trying to REDUCE cost.

In all seriousness though, these are affordable cars that can be very competitive. The last thing I'd want to see happening is "Fray madness" bastardizing what are two very enjoyable and most importantly current formats. The Fray is a unique concept, very cool in itself but it disturbs me that the concept became the rules for T-Jet classes throughout the country, when the fact is that the cars are anything but a T-Jet.

I really have to stick with take them out of the box, tweak 'em a little, and have at it.

Do you RACE these things with the wheels they come with?, if so , how about some tricks to get them concentric.

Tim Leppert

Sounds like the TJet guys are rolling on this so I'll stick to the XT side of this. Here's a couple of proposed XT classes to get things rolling:

Box Stock XT:

1) Any JL, RC2, or AutoWorld X-Traction body is allowed. The body cannot be sanded or lightened. The body mounts may not be altered. All body accessories like windows, bumpers, and wings that are part of the production body must remain intact and be present in their stock location at the start of each race heat.
2) Any unaltered JL, RC2, or AutoWorld X-Traction rolling chassis is allowed. The chassis cannot be lightened or sanded in any way.
3) The stock motor cannot be altered in any way.
4) Stock gears cannot be lightened through sanding or drilling but may be polished for a smoother mesh.
5) Any JL, RC2, or AutoWorld brand pickup shoe designed for the XT may be used.
6) Stock tires may be trued and glued on the wheels.
7) Aftermarket single compound slip-on tires may be used in place of the stock tires.
a. Aftermarket front tires may be glued on the wheels.
b. Aftermarket rear tires may not be glued on the wheels.


Super Stock XT:

All box stock rules except:

1) Any JL, RC2, or AutoWorld X-Traction body is allowed. The body can be internally lightened but must retain its stock external appearance, length, width, and wheel well profile. The body may be lowered but must remain compatible with the stock snap-on XT mounting mechanism and not require the use of adhesives or non-stock devices of any sort to hold the body on the stock chassis. All body accessories like windows, bumpers, and wings that are part of the production body must remain intact and be present in their stock loction at the start of each race heat.
2) Any JL, RC2, AutoWorld, or third party pickup shoe designed for the XT or Aurora Magnatraction may be used, with the exception of "power steering" style shoes.
a. No additional material may be added to the shoes, including braid. solder, or additional metal.
b. Any shoe that causes a short circuit between the track rails resulting in a blown fuse or tripped circuit breaker will be disqualified by the race director and the car will not be allowed to continue until the offending shoes are replaced by conforming ones.

3) Aftermarket single or dual flange rear wheels may be used on the rear.
4) Aftermarket o-ring or independent front ends may be used.
5) Aftermarket single compound slip-on tires may be used.
6) Aftermarket solid axles may be used.
7) Aftermarket metal guide pin may be used.

Flier from our last race, which was copied and run at a 2nd location 3 weeks later as well:

http://home.comcast.net/~swampergene/qmart_racing/qmr_july.gif

Just to answer the question in better detail, yes we do RACE these cars. Since we began monthly racing last October, running two classes per event, half have involved JL T-Jets or XT's in stock form with slip-ons. To date no one has complained about the wheels. What I have found is that the tips of the axles are commonly bent, leading to the decision to allow AFX or Tuff-Ones axles to be used.

This is really an opportunity to bring a lot of things together in this hobby. These are current, mass-produced cars. I simply don't see any need to introduce anything that will push the racing of these cars into the current realm of H.O. Racing, which is nothing more than a nationwide cluster of spec groups. What year Fray rules do you use? How do you define "hot stock"? When do we use "may" or "shall"? This type of stuff is what has torn the hobby apart. A person should be able to walk into a shop, buy a car and some tires, and have at it.

This is not to say there is no room for advanced tinkering or cottage industry parts in some classes with these cars, but neither should be considered when building the base rules, which should be very short and very simple.

I am more of a collector/modeller and have absoloutely no interest in the technical aspects of racing, so having "box stock" classes would work with someone like me. In fact, there was one of those races a couple of weeks ago at the local slot track and although I didn't participate last time, I plan on it next time. I also like the stock body rule which makes the cars more interesting to look at. If they would only specify BLACK silicones..........

The X track rules look great.
Do we allow original magna traction parts? (more parts to choose from) Not motors, just shoes, wheels, idlers and axles.

Are we still thinking about an oval based deal here? (easier to put the event together)

I think maybe a min body weight is in order, say 2 grams. Maybe 2.5

Let's keep it going
Tim Leppert

Hey kraz are you talking about the one at Tony's place? That's the "2nd location" I was refering to.

:)

Swamper, I notice you don't allow original Afx rims. Do you guys have lots of good JL/AW rims to replace the occasional bad ones?

Two of the most popular classes in our club (Front Range HO Club - Colorado) utilize the Johnny Lightning/Auto World chassis.

We run a "Spec class" using the Tuff-One style chassis. We spec JW Speedparts slip-on rear tires (.350 size), the JW Speedparts front wheel weights, and either a JL, original Aurora, or Joe Furuli body. We do allow O-ring front tires, rear axle changes, American Line pickup shoes, and balancing the armature. Quite a competitive car for very little money. In fact, these cars, with their slip-on tires, are competitive with a VERY good Super Stock/Fray type Aurora T-jet.

Our second class uses the JL/Auto World X-Traction chassis. Again, double flanged rims, slip-on rear tires, O-ring fronts, replacement P.U. shoes, and balancing of the armature. We also allow the JL/AW, Aurora, or SG+ hard plastic bodies. These X-Traction cars are usually better than the older Aurora Magna-Traction cars that are allowed to run in the same race class (thanks to Tim Leppert for MANY suggested tips/tweaks!). Again, very competitive, fun to race cars for very little money.

dlw we mix it up. Occasionally we run a mixed class of Magnatractions and X-Tractions, in that case we allow either wheel on either car. When we run strictly JL cars, we try to keep it JL all the way unless a glaring problem crops up as did regarding axles. These cars are cheap enough that most guys have a bunch of them in their box. If your #1 racer has a bad wheel, swap it with one of your dogs, problem solved. In my experience, and I'm servicing at minimum two cars for each race - mine, my son's, and sometimes a few spares- , the rims are generally not that bad, the tips of the rear axles are often bent and at first glance it looks like the wheel at fault. And except for one race, no AFX car has been able to come even close to winning the mixed events, and we do keep chassis restricted to their respective brand with a 14 ohm arm limit across the board. At this point, most of the old school guys have switched to X-Tractions.

Do you RACE these things with the wheels they come with?, if so , how about some tricks to get them concentric.

Tim Leppert


We just glue the tires to the rims and true the rubber, or if we are using silicone we permatex the tires to the rims and true the silicone. This ets the cars running smooth enough.

Do you allow the use of Aurora Magna-Traction chassis in this class?
And if not, why not?

Scott

Hey kraz are you talking about the one at Tony's place? That's the "2nd location" I was refering to.

:)

Yeah, it was at Tony's. That's only about a mile and a half from my house, but that's the first time I was ever in there. I figured it was about time I checked it out while there was some racing going on, although I have to admit I was a little distracted by the red-headed newspaper reporter chick. Are you guys going to be at all the JL races? Oh, yeah....what kind of controller should I get?

Scott we mix 'em up on occasion, limiting the AFX cars to arms 14 ohms or higher so they are equal to the new cars in that respect. Weren't you guys south of the (PA) border running a similar mixed class a little while back?

Sorry we didn't get introduced kraz! We are going to try to get to as many as we can up there, and many of those guy are coming down here when possible, including next week's race. If you are only gonna race the JL classes, in my opinion a 90-ohm parma can't be beat, it's right in the middle of what I think are the optimum for each chassis - 120 for JL T-Jet and 60 for XT's. If nothing else it's a good starting point before shelling out the bucks for an electronic controller, though many guys are reverting to resistors when running both JL chassis. If you're planning on joining in on the 440x2 and Super G+ classes, a cheaper Parma electronic may be the one to start with.

Sorry we didn't get introduced kraz! We are going to try to get to as many as we can up there, and many of those guy are coming down here when possible, including next week's race. If you are only gonna race the JL classes, in my opinion a 90-ohm parma can't be beat, it's right in the middle of what I think are the optimum for each chassis - 120 for JL T-Jet and 60 for XT's. If nothing else it's a good starting point before shelling out the bucks for an electronic controller, though many guys are reverting to resistors when running both JL chassis. If you're planning on joining in on the 440x2 and Super G+ classes, a cheaper Parma electronic may be the one to start with.

Thanks for the advice, Gene. I will most likely stick with the T-Jet and XT's, and even then it will be more for fun than serious competition. Mike

It's all for fun, kraz. :)

These cars have actually proven it too. We can't get guys to drive 20 miles for Fray-rule T-Jets or modern mag cars, yet in a heartbeat they are ready to drive 75 miles or more to run these cars. Top prize is....a new car of whatever class you won! :)

Do you allow the use of Aurora Magna-Traction chassis in this class?
And if not, why not?

Scott

Where I used to race XTs, MTs were allowed, but they didn't have a chance against the XTs, so everyone started running XTs.

I don't see much of a performance difference between an AutoWorld XT and an Aurora Magnatraction as long as the MT is running a plain old 15 ohm copper winding red tip arm. You would think that the XT's tri-lam would rule the day, but it's lamination material is nothing special and it sits higher on the shaft and has more aerodynamic drag. The MT arm is lighter and tends to be soldered better so it spins up faster. I've seen a few XT arms with fairly bad solder blobs on the tabs. These would not make good racing arms.

If we're talking about a new racing series I would be in inclined to limit at least the box-stock class to XT only, just for the sake of conformity and less variability for the racers and tech inspectors. For super-stock I would allow MT and third party parts for consumables like shoes and brushes only, but still stay with the XT rolling chassis and arm. If you feel a need for bringing in MTs, I'd consider having a separate class called "Open Stock" and lay out the equivalency rules for each brand. Winding resistance alone is a crude measure of armature performance, especially when armatures are constructed differently. I think slot car people put way too much credence on armature resistance, and in magnet car land, armature timing. It's almost humorous to go to a sanctioned race and the tech inspectors are carefully measuring and making go/no-go decisions on arm resistance with a $5.00 ohmmeter that's physically impossible to calibrate.

As far as driving to races, during the race season (Sept-May) I drive 50+ miles each way to weekly races and for monthly regional races we'll see 20-30 racers driving 75-150 miles each way to race ---> magnet cars, usually 2 classes per event.

Electronic controllers are a wonderful thing. They take all the guesswork out of figuring out which controller works best with which type of car. It's too bad they are as expensive as they are, but the newer transistor based Professor Motor models are not too bad price wise. The Difalcos are proven winners. If you're planning on staying in the hobby for at least 5 more years and you run more than 2 types of cars of any scale then try to find a way to get an electronic controller for yourself. It's the one splurge that you won't regret.

i was wondering why cant someone take and modify the parma controller where you can easyly change out the resistors like instead of haveing a bolt threw the resistor just take and make it where there is some kinda plug and the resistor just snaps in place i have been thinkin about doing something like this but cant quite figure out how to do it yet help me guys lol

Wow!
Thanks Walt. I'm glad to hear that someone acually reads that stuff. That sounds like a great class.
Say, Colorado is pretty close to the center of the country, how about trying to put together an oval base A.W. nationals (we have to keep it under 6000 ft for the altitude challenged( L.O.L.

Get Gary to do it, he'll do anything!

Tim Leppert