Should a track be the one to lose money for having a sanction race that didn't get a big turnout.They go above and beyond to make the racers have a great place to race at and in the end go in the hole for having the race. Looks like the sanctioning group would take some loss also. For some reason this doesn't sound fair to the track owners. If it wasn't for the tracks where would these groups have there races? Maybe Wal-Mart parking lots. Maybe I just don't understand, but it makes you think whether or not you want to have one at your own track. Most places can't afford to lose money just to make money for the sanctioning bodies involved. Just my thoughts..... Steve......

What was the Organizations cut of the entry fee? What was the entry fee for the race? How did the track lose money? How many Racers entered in the race?

They got their money for teching the cars. They got their rooms at the motel payed for. They got money for throphies. The track director of the race got his money and a motel room . Was hpoing for 70 to 80 racers, got 32. Not counting power for three days. Add all this up and the track went in the hole. Steve............

Since no club was mentioned I have to assume that this a track run as a business.

When you run a business there is no guarantee that you will make money.

Why the lower turnout? Was the entry fee much higher than a normal race day? Were any other race events competing with this event? Did this sanctioned race important to the racers in the area?

The track is not run as a business. Entrie fee was the same as any big race. No other event was racing the same date. Steve............

Why not just cut to the chase and tell us the details and mention the names

Why should an ORGANIZATION who lived up to THEIR end of the bargain LOSE money?

you said THEY got their ROOMS Comp'd and Paid for the WORK they Did.

Do you have a JOB?

Does your employer PAY you regardless of whether or not he makes money?

If a business loses money, they go "OUT of BUSINESS", but sometimes you LOSE a little in hope for a bigger gain.

Sometimes (more times than not it seems) BIG Races do end up being LOSER money wise.

You end up with EXTRA expenses, like Trophies, Tshirts, Tech people, Travel expenses and other unforseen expenses.

What you hope to gain is a platform to build. If the FEW racers who showed up had a really good race, and everything with the program went well, you build from that and hope the next race will exceed the expectations.

Or else, you QUIT and don't try anymore.

(This from a race director who has LOST his AZZ way too many times to count, and still KEEPS on trying)

Sounds like the Sanctioning body did their job! I'm sorry the track lost money, just don't see how it's the sanctioning bodies fault. If I'm missing something please point it out.

Perhaps the real question is this: "Does a sanctioning body have any duty to assist in promoting a race they sanction?". Thanks; Ernie P. :cool:

Steve, I think I know the event you're speaking of. Putting our pasts aside, here's my take. It takes a race or two like this for a trackowner to get the feel of what the norm is going to be for attendance. The Orgs. want you to buy truckloads of trophies so everybody racing and the specatators get one to take home. Then you have to buy them for classes you know probably won't even show up because there aren't any guys racing those classes within a thousand miles. All this because that's what they expect.

This is why I didn't do much sanctioned racing. The track usually gets hosed until they push back on some of these requirements. You know what classes will show up and about how many, so that's where you've got to say to the org. that you will only buy trophies for the known classes and a reasonable number. This random trophy buying is why offroad races have done a lot of pre-registration. If you get wind of additional classes coming then maybe you can get additional trophies otherwise you'll have to mail them out after the race date.

If the Org. receives compensation from racer memberships and other services that are agreed upon prior to the race, then that's the deal regardless of how many or how few show up. The ultimate promotion has got to come from the trackowner. You just can't depend on anyone else doing it. I saw another race where the track/club was lamenting over a loss due to trophies bought but the group never did ANY promotion for the race, just figured that the org. would do it all for them. Then wanted compensation when no one showed up. The track has got to take the bull by the horns and promote itself. A great track like the one you're talking about shoudn't be a secret to any racer. Promote, promote, promote. Internet is where it's at, but if you've got a few old timers, send a post card.

Probably the biggest expense has got to be awards. But there are places on the internet where you can get trophies and awards for VERY reasonable prices and still keep your entry fees reasonable too. It may seem hard to break even with $20-$25 entry fees when you've got to staff the track, buy trophies, pay for power etc. for 2 or 3 days. But is can be done, I did it.

If you'd like some info on trophy places I've found just PM me. I'd be glad to help. I've taken the same beating you're talking about and if I can spare someone a few bruises, just let me know.

I think the sanctioning body reall doesn't care how many racers show up when they have a contract that pays there rooms , their gas , and for the announcer that had to be a prof. one . The sanctioning body has very little or no money to spend or lose. The only ones that made money was the sanctioning body.The racers that came took a hit on gas , rooms , time off from work. The track and the sanctioning body should be partners and that didn't happen ..mabey the sanctioning bodies need to sign a contract now and then ..

Craig has made some very true statements...

Having been on the inside of a sanctioning body, I can tell you, people always think sanctioning bodies are some RICH entity. In fact, most have a very limited budget considering what they do, and the resources they have.

I use to hear tracks complain when THEY requested an "OFFICIAL" to be present at a Sanctioned event, then bitch about having to cover the cost of the motel for that "Official"

At that time, most of the officials I was involved with were PAID...well, if you consider $50.00 a DAY plus a couple meals and a motel room PAID. (ooooh they got RICH)

They were NOT there for the MONEY, but at the same time, they usually didn't get to race (And they were all racers) So, to be paid such a moderate amount wasn't an unreasonable request. Usually the pay covered MOST of the money it took in Gas to get to and from the event.

Trophies...this was another bad deal. For some races, if event sponsorship was able to help cover expenses, trophies were HUGE...as was the BILL. Too often there were several hundred dollars worth of trophies unused, and to return them to the trophy shop they were credited back for about .30c on the purchased dollar. Some were able to be reused by removing the plates (it was tried to keep all the trophies for that particular year the same to allow for this)

Advertising...Some events were able to be advertised in magaizines, but a good magazine ad will cost MORE than most events make for a profit.

Internet is where it's at

While the internet is a Great Tool...too many people think because THEY are on the internet...EVERYBODY IS. I know personally a lot of racers who spend time WORKING on their cars..and DON'T surf the net, or don't surf it more than once or twice a month.

It's been 10 years since I got regular race flyers in the MAIL, except for the stuff from Jimmy Babcock and his series events, or local races (HotRod Hobbies), he still does it right...and is NOT afraid of shameless self promotion.

SWTOUR:

"Shameless self promotion", you got it!

The internet usually gets the word out very effectively. If a guy isn't a net surfer he usually races with at least one person or more who is. When word goes out about a race, guys will talk about it at their home track. So unless a racer hasn't been racing for 6 months and has lost all contact with his racing buddies, he's going to be informed of the event sooner or later.

The big problem around our neck of the woods is that even though it was talked up on the net in several places, there just aren't as many oval racers in these here parts as there used to be. The AVERAGE oval attendance at the tracks in the area is probably around 10-12. A few more at some tracks and a few less at others. So with the cost of gas and fewer traveling racers, getting a big crowd is getting harder and harder. The host track is a super facility and people rave about the owners and the race program so that obviously was not an issue. It just seems like fewer and fewer people are into the traveling thing.

The ROAR Oval Nats are coming up in this area so it will be interesting to see what the attendance will be there. Although this will be a Nationals and the other race was a State race so it might be hard to compare. But it will still be interesting.

Just thought I would add. In my track's experience, it's not just advertising on the Internet. It's also e-mailing, mailing, and/or calling other tracks, and hobby shops in your vicinity.

My track is located in the boondocks, the middle of Wyoming. To promote our races, we basically e-mail every track and hobby shop that we can find that is within 12 hours drive to our track. (This is generally the limit people are willing to go for our large races).

One of the key things to do, is keep those entry forms, and the following year, contact those people to let them know about the current year's event. If you put on a good show, they'll want to come back, and probably try hard to sell it to other racers at their local track to make the trip as well.

I'm new at all of this, but I'm finally starting to get a feel for how much we have to work to get racers to show up.

I do feel that the racing organization has some obligation to promote races. I feel that ROAR has made large progress in this area by actually displaying large races for their tracks on the website. Now with the Revup going online, I would love it if we could get region directors to do more race promoting in their writeups. I like seeing the results of races in my region, but moreso, I want to know the dates of future races in my region and where to signup for them!!

In addition, I think it would be nice for the rc magazines to offer a public service area for large race events. Basically give a half page to each event, with details on big trophy races that are coming up (sanctioned or otherwise). I doubt they will ever do this, but again it would be nice.

Also, I'm hoping that with ROAR consolidating race events, that it will help the smaller events gain more traction. I race off-road only, but when I see the on-road schedule, I just cringe at all the ROAR National events going on within a short time period.

The one thing I can't complain about, is corporate sponsorship(s). The RC companies out there are excellent in giving our track prizes that help make our events so successful.

Paul

Paul, one problem with the sanctioned races is they tend to appeal to a smaller crowd than the non-sanctioned races. Some racers don't care about the Org. and have no desire to pay extra to race at an event. It's just another trophy race. So for those people they will just pass. Also for the tracks, a non-sanctioned event is usually less hassle.

As far as the Orgs. advertsing the races, their method is like preaching to the choir. To announce the races in places like REV-UP limits the audience. If the majority of area racers are not ROAR affiliated, they won't be looking there. The web sites of the Orgs. are often outdated with limited or often incorrect info. Race results are old and meaningless. So ultimately there is no adverstising. The magazines will not dedicate the space to non-revenue producing articles nor would they be able to have a race announcement page because every little group would be flooding them with their special race. It would be maddening trying to sort through the mountain of announcements they would get.

Ultimately the success or failure of the track falls upon the track. If a track thinks that joining and Org. is going to be its salvation, they will eventually be closed. The trackowner or club president, utilizing willing supporters, has got to be the one leading the charge for every event. You need loyal, reliable racers to help spread the word. Everyone expects the trackowner or club president to say great things about the event and facility. It just carries more weight when racers hear it from the average regular racer. That's the hard part, finding those people who will actually help. Most will talk about doing it but few will actually help get it done.

Using signup sheets and getting names, addresses and e-mail address is a great way to build a racer base for future events and sometimes to make major announcements. People come and go in this hobby and they get out of the loop. Using the old mailing list is a good way to stay in touch with them and try to tempt them back in.

Why can't the sanctioning body and the track just split all the cost?that way no one person takes a big hit,and it's a win win or lose lose situation however you want to look at it.In this particular situation,seems there could have been some give and take.

Pepe, it would depend on whether the Org and the track were both equally taking the risk. If they shared the expense of putting on the race then as in any other business situation, both parties would share equally in the income. BUT, in most cases the track has the burden of all the expenses and the Org. really doesn't provide anything other than the rule book and the collection of membership fees. The track would still pay for the Org's. reps. to be there as well as utilities, other support staff, trophies, advertising, etc......

The Orgs. as they exist now will probably tell you they don't have the revenue to split the cost of every sanctioned race. The cash outlay by the track to put on some races would make your head spin.

When you plan any big event you have to be cautiously optimistic. Hope for the best but be prepared to deal with reality. When you know what our racer base consists of and you can pretty much figure who is gonna show for what class around here, it's not hard to determine which classes to buy trophies for and which ones you will end up taking home with you at the end of the day.

I think a lot of new tracks think there is some magic going to happen when they tag their race with the name of some organization. In some cases it might draw racers who would not otherwise attend but in the same light, it will turn others away. Catch 22, you can't win either way. Some people think that a sanctioned race is more important, maybe, but not like it used to be.

We are a member of ROAR primarily for insurance purposes. As are most tracks in our area. So that automatically limits the potential of some of our racers, who abhor ROAR for X Reason (and there are plenty legit and not legit imo).

This season seems especially hard on the large events, due to rising gasoline prices. Our club held its first on-road event, and I must admit, I'm happy that we had 20 racers. Most racers averaged over $300 in gasoline for the weekend to travel to us and back. We also lacked a few key features, but overall everybody was happy with the racing, and only had minor complaints which are typical considering is the was the first on-road race we've ever done, which is much different then Off-Road heh.

I don't think tagging us with ROAR helps our track as far as promotion all that much. But I want them to promote us and the other tracks as much as possible. I generally budget one to two races a year that I will travel to. I want to know about those races a month or two before it's scheduled to occur.

It's understood that a lot of track align with an Org. like ROAR for the insurance. But when the Org. you're aligning with doesn't provide anything but a rule book, you have to really ask if it's worth having racers pay the org. for that set of rules through their membership fees.

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER should an Org. comes out of a race making a bigger profit than the track. If they do, then something's wrong BIGTIME!

Craig, you have some valid points. But saying an Org should never make more than the track is a bit out there.
As the host track, they know the racers in the region/state/local and what the services that will be available. Concessions, building, parking, hotels, power, water, track equipment, crews, promotions, trophies, etc. all have to fall on the track as they are the on site experts of the location. As such, it’s the track that does have burden of the cost. The rule book does save a track a lot of grief. But it also spells out the who/what/when and how much before you make a bid for an event. Insurance counts too. Still the choices that will let a track make a little or break even vs. lose money are on the bidding tracks side to do. It stinks to lose money as a track. Not knowing the case your talking about specifically, did they go back and look at what there estimations were prior to the bid? What caused them to lose money? Was it a change the Org made after the bid was made or was it a flaw in the estimate for the events participation?

fish, I'm not sure how close the track looked at those issues. They are new to the "BIG RACE" game and got sucked in unknowingly and yes, I thouroughly agree with you that the track should be weighing all those factors and then agree to ONLY what is reasonable based on the realistic expected support.

BUT, the Org. that was represented really shouldn't be reaping a profit at the expense of the tracks that keep them alive.

To be honest MOST tracks DO lose money on sanctioned races.. Thats why our local track only does it every few years.. The Main purpose seems to be publicity.. They will hold a race to get there name out there to hopefully spark racer turnout..Although some have made money on a race.. Our track did in 96.. But there was also a huge turnout.. Its been a long time since any sanctioned race has created a large group of racers..

Like I've always said you've just gotta do this stuff cause you love it, not to make money at it,the market is just not there.Money can't be the driving factor in this hobby, be it from a trackowners stance or even a manufactors stance really.I'd be overjoyed if I was a trackowner and was able to break even.

So from what I'm reading here I can basically get this. The track needs to do all or the majority of the promotion, get trophies, if a rep comes from the org. put them up in a hotel, etc., etc., etc. The org. provides insurance (to those that are members so they need to pay for that) and a set of rules. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see what the "Organization" is needed for? :lol: The track can come up with their own rules (which from track to track are normally pretty close to the same anyway) and don't they already have liability insurance to run a weekly race anyway (I know I do)?

Well partly its insurance and rules. But there are also the things a track noramly can't provide. That "normly pretty close" rules has little diferances for track to track that for many is becomes a big deal and a huge fight to settle at the track race day. There also is the issue of name, local hot track might very notable for local drivers, but if your trying to pull in the rest of the state, region, nation or world, lack of backing by an Org. becomes increasingly diffficult. Then add to that trying to pull in some big name drivers is almost impossible unless you have an event that has been going for years with good attendance or and Org. backing it.

I went to the MOD Nats last year....
I was not too impressed.
I talked at lenght with the track owner about the pro's and con's. Con's out weighed the pro's.
My track averages over 150 entries per race every other Saturday in the winter. The track owner at the NATS said with those kind of numbers.... Why bother with all the hassle of a "BIG" race as long as my attendance pays the bills and everyone is having fun. That is what is all about.. having fun.. VERY Few make a living driving RC vehicles. If a driver wants the attention of the BIG companies, he will attend the big races. MOST tracks don't make a lot of money either. I am happy to pay the rent and have enough to give out door prizes at the end of the season.

If you want to boost your attendance... sponsor some type of local rent and drive at a fair or town carnival. A small easy track with the cars geared down. Just to let people see if they would be interested in owning a RC Car.
We did that at a local county fair. Had our timing system there and gave a free day of racing at our full size track to the fasted driver each day.
We charged a nominal fee to race... ran 3 min races. We were dead tired after 3 days... But rented 400 trucks and attracted tons of racers to our facility. That was almost three years ago. We have not had to do it since then.
Also for exposure, a club in our area attends all the local parades and hands out flyers on the parade route with racing info.

So from what I'm reading here I can basically get this. The track needs to do all or the majority of the promotion, get trophies, if a rep comes from the org. put them up in a hotel, etc., etc., etc. The org. provides insurance (to those that are members so they need to pay for that) and a set of rules. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see what the "Organization" is needed for? The track can come up with their own rules (which from track to track are normally pretty close to the same anyway) and don't they already have liability insurance to run a weekly race anyway (I know I do)?


Why isn't there another group of STOCK CAR(NASCAR) racers making a TON of money with the kind of TV Coverage NASCAR gets w/o a sanctioning body?

It goes to "What are you purchasing?"

When sanctioning a race, you hope that because it's "Sanctioned" and listed on a National web site or something, has flyers mailed NATIONAL etc. you are hoping to draw attention to YOUR track.

It's not about LOSING MONEY, it's about What is it you are trying to accomplish.

If you have a track that draws 150 regular racers, you are almost a FOOL to hold a SANCTIONED event. The Sanctioned event will have a higher entry cost (To cover all those expenses), a Non-Loyal-to-the-shop customer base(Meaning OUT OF TOWN TRAVELLERS don't buy much at a OUT OF TOWN RACE)

On the same note, if Jared Tebo, or Richard Saxton, or any of the BIG NAME Off-Road racers come to the event (Which is mainly what everybody hopes will happen at the "Sanctioned" event. Then EVERYBODY will read about YOUR local track in ALL the big time Magazines. (THAT'S CALLED Bang for the BUCK in Advertising)

Just because it's SANCTIONED doesn't assure you that the Big Dogs will come however. If you want them there...you better get on the PHONE to thier sponsors..and really convience them that being at YOUR race is the place to be...(It's called SCHMOOZING)

One of the other things I notice (And this has been with MANY tracks) is that they want the Out-Of-Towners to come to thier track..but get mad when THIER racers go out-of-town to OTHER races.

Work on getting "LOCAL" racers, moreso that trying to get Factory Sponsored "hotdogs". Getting and Keeping LOCALS is what will keep your track alive.

I can only speak for what I know.The three santioned series in the state of Florida (region4) have made money.We travel around the state,sleep at hotels and get gas just like everyone else.I've hosted a Nationals and everyone made money.When planning a race you have to think about the other races going on at the same general time of year.That can affect your turn out. Nowadays there is not many crossover drivers at least here.So if you have one type of event the same day it won't affect your race.

What I choose to do for MY events, instead of a track "Sanctioning" the event, when I come in, a price is agreed upon "PER ENTRY" for the track.

I then take over their track, run the race, tech the cars (with a paid tech crew), pay for the awards, etc. I even bring my own scoring system, computer and when needed...PA system.

The only thing I ask from the track really is the track to be prepped and race ready.

I have a couple other options I use too, sometimes option "A" makes the track more money, some tracks want a different option on the chance they may make more money..but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. (Based on a percentage of income)

For some of the the events, we do a money split.

However, when this is done, I take TRAVEL EXPENSES, AWARD EXPENSES, TECH CREW EXPENSES and WEB SITE FEE EXPENSES off the top before the split. This basically means BOTH SIDES Split these fees.

My preference is to actually RENT the facility for a FIXED price per day. It makes the math a whole lot easier.