I just got this big book called NASCAR Chronicle with lots of cool pictures and stats about NASCAR from 1947 thru 2003. I LOVE the cars from the 60s and 70s. The book got me wondering: I know in the 60s and probably the 70s, they started with essentially stock cars and stripped them down to a frame and body, then added the racing engine and suspension pieces and bolted and welded everything shut. If I'm not mistaken, though, they still used factory-type chassis and suspension pieces, like front A-arms, rear trailing arms or leaf springs, and so on... right? And today, they all have the same NASA-tech spaceship-grade tube frame and suspension with the only real differences being the engine manufacturer and the headlight decals, right? Well, at what point did that change? Did the big Monte Carlos and Thunderbirds being used in the late 70s still have factory-type frames? The Chargers and Chevelles from the mid-70s?

The book says that in 1981, the NASCAR rules changed so that cars had to run a 110-inch wheelbase instead of 115. It's obvious that at that point, racers had to start using then-current model cars. How about the smaller Monte Carlos and Thunderbirds and LeMans in the mid-80s? Factory frame or purpose-built tube frame? I would think that the factory FOX-body Tbird wouldn't have a strong enough unibody structure to hold up to stock car racing...

By 1989 or 1990, there are lots of front-drive body styles showing up, like Grand Prix and Regals. And as early as '85, I'm seeing pictures of front-drive models of Delta 88s and Lesabres, obviously with custom rear-drive chassis for racing...

Anybody have a good explanation of the evolution timeline for these things? Or maybe just a link to some good info?

thanks in advance...

--rick

Purpose built tube frames started in the early to mid 1960s I think. At least the front and rear clips, anyway.

NASCAR started out as strictly stock but when cars started going faster and started moving to bigger tracks, concessions had to be made for safety and reliability. They moved away from stock wheels to stronger race wheels, got rid of side window glass, started welding doors shut, etc. etc. to make cars safer and strengthen them.

I know in the '70s teams like the Pettys still got a "body in white" from Chrysler Corp. when they wanted to build a car, but the frames were all pretty much custom made by then. Some stock items still remained, like the universal use of the Ford 9" rearend, but even those were beefed up.

Completely hand-made bodies (sans hood, roof & trunk which are required to be stock items) started happening in the 1980s. I think the early '80s Monte Carlos, Regals, Cutlasses, Miradas and Imperials were the last ones with stock sheetmetal. The Ford T-bird of the time was lengthened to fit the wheelbase rule of 110".

I wish they would go back to stock bodies. Two doors or four, I think it would be more interesting.

'doba

Here're a couple to get you started:

http://www.tricklefan.com/manual/stock_dev.html

http://www.tricklefan.com/manual/stock_cars.html

Really? Wow. That surprises me. The book refers to Richard Petty and Neil Bonnett struggling with the handling of the Dodge Magnum in 1978; I would have thought that had something to do with the chassis. Apparently, it was all related to aerodynamics, huh? I guess at near 200-mph speeds, every little detail counts.

I agree on the stock bodies. The thought of real mid 70's Chevelles and Chargers and Torinos duking it out is so much more appealing than the blob-bodied things they drive now. (Though I have to admit I'm a little disappointed to hear that there weren't factory Big Three chassis under them way back when...)

Thanks for the lesson... :wave:

--rick

p.s. Imperials? They raced Imperials in the 80s? Cool... :thumbsup:

edit: thanks nhawk! awesome info!

I went to a local track this weekend and the Mini Stock and Sportsman classes were so cool because I could tell what kind of body the car was and it looked close to stock. However, some body styles I recognized as front wheel drive were running as rear wheel drives.

Park-

This might be of some interest.

http://www.canepa.com/inventory/racecar/2244.html

If you have the time, check out the info/stats page-


Cheers..

Park-

This might be of some interest.

http://www.canepa.com/inventory/racecar/2244.html

If you have the time, check out the info/stats page-


Cheers..

Yeah, that's interesting, ESPECIALLY given the info page. "Fully fabricated Grand National style chassis... Ford Galaxie based front suspension..." and the body is sectioned and "cheated up" a la Smokey Yunick. Verrrrry interesting indeed...

thanks for the link!

--rick

[QUOTE=ParkRNDL]Really? Wow. That surprises me. The book refers to Richard Petty and Neil Bonnett struggling with the handling of the Dodge Magnum in 1978; I would have thought that had something to do with the chassis. Apparently, it was all related to aerodynamics, huh? I guess at near 200-mph speeds, every little detail counts.
>>>>
The front end of the Magnums was fine. It was the roof and trunk area that caused the back end to lift up at speeds.
<<<<

p.s. Imperials? They raced Imperials in the 80s? Cool... :thumbsup:
QUOTE]
>>>>
Buddy Arrington was the last person to run a Chrysler. He stuck with the Imperial and was even mildly competative. Of course mildly competative doesn't cut it.

I have an HO slot car of the Imperial. A friend of mine painted it for me and did an excellent job. It is a vac formed body. I had it at a race in Michigan tucked away in my race case. One of the people there brought there their young son with him. While I was concentrating on the race the little br, I mean boy dug through my case and tried to lull it out of the slot it was in, by the rear bumper area, and ripped the body from the rear wheels up through the roof!! Of course daddy dear just ASKED the young child to put it back. It was all I could do not to rip into both of them.

There are a couple excellent books out there that chronicles MoPar stock racing and have great color pictures of the Magnum and the Imperial.

Marty

Here is a post card I have of the Magnum:
http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/511/medium/Arrington_Magnum.jpg

Marty

Here is a post card of the Imperial:
http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/511/medium/Arrington_Imperial.jpg

Note the lack of sponsorship!

Marty

The started getting away from strictly stock in 1964 and by 67 when the Fairlane came about and the body was stock but underneath was strictly rcaing.

Roger Corrie

A new show just started on Speed Channel and Dale Jr is hosting it.

It goes back and looks at old races and has the original announcer calling the race with some intermediate commentary from Junior.
Tonight was a 1971 Daytona 500 with Petty winning AGAIN...;)

If you are into Nascar History, this is a cant miss show.............if you are into race cars of old, this is a cant miss show.................That should pretty much include everyone in here :D

That's a great show. Watch it all the time. I love seeing all those old cars again.

I forgot..........Its called " Back in the day" :)

Check it out.............Listen to a Hemi roaring down the track in the Kings #43 car once again ;)

Purpose built tube frames started in the early to mid 1960s I think.
I'm 100% in favor of tube frames, safety cages, and all that kind of safety stuff up to and including the Car of Tomorrw (COT), but I think NASCAR should return to requiring the bodies to be based on the same exact sheet metal as the street car versions. None of the current cars bear even a passing resemblance to the real cars. When I look at the 1970s vintage NASCAR I'm amazed at how they really look like stock cars, even though they aren't. Oh well, it's no longer about the cars anyway. Today's NASCAR is all about the celebrity drivers and the spectacle.

The evolution to the cars we have today was a long and gradual one that started when Ford switched from the Galaxie to the Fairlane body in the middle of the 1966 season. That's right todays NASCAR chassis and suspension is based on a '66 Ford!

Most of the cars in the 70's pretty much started out as normal sheetmetal ("body in white"). I'm not just when the common chassis was used by all of the competitors.

We'll look back on today as a golden age because pretty soon all of the NASCAR rules will be based on what Toyota wants.

ParkRNDL,

you have a PM.

Marty

Richard Petty invented an impact gun that would take off all 5 lug nuts at once. :thumbsup:

It was outlawed.

A big change came in the body designs when manufacturers went away from big chrome steel bumpers and went to smooth endura noses and impact resistant materials to meet new highway safety standards. That really opened up the aerodynamic possibilities that dominate NASCAR today. ;)

I had read somewhere (but I don't recall where...) that the current rear suspension style was started by Junior Johnson in the mid sixties...
And he took it from a GMC or Chevy pickup truck from that era. (really...)
Have a look at todays design. Two long trailing arms, coil springs and a track bar to keep the rear axle centered under the frame...
http://www.nascar.com/promos/craftsman/images/sears3of6.gif

A new show just started on Speed Channel and Dale Jr is hosting it.

It goes back and looks at old races and has the original announcer calling the race with some intermediate commentary from Junior.
Tonight was a 1971 Daytona 500 with Petty winning AGAIN...;)

If you are into Nascar History, this is a cant miss show.............if you are into race cars of old, this is a cant miss show.................That should pretty much include everyone in here :D

Sorry I'm late, but I thought I'd throw this in. If you are into old cars, not just old NASCAR, you should try to catch that show in it's original form. I believe it was called "Car and Track", and it ran in the late 60s and early 70s. Aside from the race coverage, they also did road tests of new cars. Mopars, Shelbys, AMX, all the good stuff, and when they tested them, they really whooped on 'em. I have no idea what practical info one gets from the "reverse spin" test, but you gotta see some maniac pull one in a big old Grand Marquis. :thumbsup: Speed used to carry the show before Fox bought them and turned them into the all NASCAR network.
I don't know where you could see the show now, but I'm sure someone more internet savvy than I could find it. It's worth it.

Also if you like nascar history I bought a book the other day called the nascar chroncles. It has tons of pictures from the start of nascar till 2003. Everything wasnt glorius in nascar back then and it really made me appreciate todays nascar. Alot of guys complain of rousch and hendrick, but it seems there alot more cars today with a chance to win. and we dont have cars today lapping the whole field 3 times. I was one of those who was turned off by the way nascar is going. By reading this book I understand a little better. Nascar is still alot more fan friendly than the other sports and it hasnt had a strike since late 50's early 60's.

Also if you like nascar history I bought a book the other day called the nascar chroncles. It has tons of pictures from the start of nascar till 2003.

hey! that's the book I started this thread about! yeah, I really like it, it's amazing how different stuff was way back when...

I guess i should pay attention to the first post more,sorry. Any true modeler of nascar should have that book dont you agree.

Yeah, actually, it wasn't too long ago that I think someone asked around this board looking for old NASCAR reference photos, and that book is PERFECT...

--rick