Ok, I'm hearing guys are running some of the fixed timing 19t motors w/ the timing tab removed and advanced to 36 degrees...

Is this being done?

Why is motor tampering being allowed (If it is being done)?

What have the results been...(If it's being done) ?

Ive heard of some of the guys doing it in On-road where there is an OPEN 19 turn rule....Our track is like this. We can run anything as long as its a tagged 19 turn armature with 19awg wire.

But the only fixed motors that will work on (Because the cans are round) is the Reedy and the Integy motors. It seems to work very well on these motors as they are torque based motors and have very low RPM. They do run a lot better with the added timing.


EA

it's time for the on-road nerds to go adjustable timing. i think they are adult enough to run the big boys motors by now? lol

if the rules state fixed timing locked 24deg than any timing above would result in a DQ?
that is if there is a tech at the races.

Up in Nor-Cal, we allow adjustable timing in the 19 turn oval class (fixed at 24 for the sedans). Arcor and Roar motors are allowed. And, to make things even, we allow the fixed timing motors (Reedy and Checkpoint) to have the tab cut. It increases the Racers motor choices and keeps things fair.

Jake
out of curiosity, which 19T motor seems to be dominant on your tour ?

MT Fuji's have been up front most of last year and appear to be very competitive this season. The new Checkpoint Money Motor is on the scene, and running very well so far .... Haven't seen any Kamodo's run yet?

Ah cool
The Checkpoint Money and Komodo are both Machine wound, correct ?

I cant see them running with a handwound, if so I would re-think my winder, lol

money motors are machine wound to conform to the stupid on-road motor rules! errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
i just don't see it as a fair fight? a full blown hand wound motor vs a cheap machine wound motor?

BUT ever track record in oval in florida has been done with a 25.00 hand out bird motor. so who knows? is it motor or car?

Kat, are the birds handout 19T motors Hemi Wound?

money motors are machine wound to conform to the stupid on-road motor rules! errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
i just don't see it as a fair fight? a full blown hand wound motor vs a cheap machine wound motor?

BUT ever track record in oval in florida has been done with a 25.00 hand out bird motor. so who knows? is it motor or car?

Actually they are not wound to conform to Roar rules as it's a Hemie wound... The Money motor that is.

I KNOW for a fact that the Komodo dragon will run with any handwound that meets Arcor/Roar rules....No doubt about it!!

EA

so what market was the locked 24 deg timing money motor made for? lol and why would anyone buy one? is it the cool motor label?
just another reason why i like to use one motor and thats it.

eric is the dragon motor going to make every other 19 turn motor a sinker now?

erock i'm not sure on the bird motors being hemi semi or Bi lol . i just buy motors and run them.

BUT ever track record in oval in florida has been done with a 25.00 hand out bird motor. so who knows? is it motor or car?

I look at it kinda like this...

I don't care what motor anybody runs...if they learn it...fine tune it...and concentrate on a SINGLE motor...and not jump from one type to another on a weekly basis...YOU SHOULD BE ABLE to get MAX performance from that particular motor.

Too many guys switch motors..cause someone else beat them...so they jump ship to THAT motor...usually THOSE guys still get BEAT~

As for the ultrabird. Out here...I think Larry Ruby ran them for a while, (Probably the handout motor he won the "B" with at the Birds) otherwise I've never seen one run.

But, if you have 1/2 dozen (or more) really good drivers/tuners using this motor and comparing notes, etc... IT SHOULD PERFORM well.

Ask why at a ROAR Nat's or other handout race, why is it the HANDOUT motor is usually a pile of crap....but, if the race has a big turnout..by the end of the weekend, usually the track record falls...(With the piece of CRAP motor)

The machine wound Checkpoints held their own against the hand wounds just fine ... It was our first race running them, so I know DW and I will get more speed out of them with a little more tweaking. Needless to say, we're pleased with them so far!

To answer Kat's question, it was aimed at the sedan 19 turn market. But, did not pass roar due to the vents being .020 to high (or something like that) on the can. Same market the Komodo is aimed at ....

Speaking of that market (on-road) at the carpet on-road nats EA, Putnam, KC Racing and others were all in attendance, tuning motors and promoting their compaines.

jake was the money motor in the ball park when you allowed them to be modified to 36 deg? or did you use them out of the box with the locked 24 deg and gear them up?

more and more motors are being made without any intention of being roar legal. i'm not a roar fan but it's ashame nobody gives a damn about conforming to there rules anymore.

Be cautious of " hand -wound " armatures !!!
If you want a somewhat even playing field do-not allow a replacement
hand-wound arm .

We've been there and tryed that and it absolutely amazing what some
of these racers come up with thats stamped 19x1 , 19 gauge.

We've tested some and had them spin over 35,000 at 5 volts.

Makes you wonder??????????????

Hand wound arms belong in an open-modified divsion, way too hard to tech.

That arm that turned 35,000 looked and weighed the same as a c-2 arm but with the shaft extension missing.

This year its machine wound 19's for us and I think the komodo's going to be hard to beat.

R.S.

Actually they are not wound to conform to Roar rules as it's a Hemie wound... The Money motor that is.

I KNOW for a fact that the Komodo dragon will run with any handwound that meets Arcor/Roar rules....No doubt about it!!

EA
Yesser.EA The Komodo, is one hellish motor...! As fast or not faster than my handwound....

Well the problem with the Money motor is it uses the same can as their mod motors do...So in order for them to make it "comform" to roar rules they would have had to re-tool their entire mod can and line of all motors....Not something cheap or worth doing in their eyes. Reason being is that their motor would NEVER Be used for a handout at a Roar race because of cost and #2 ALL Roar races that actually people would be running them (For the most part) are the Nats...Other than that its pretty much run any 19 turn motor in on-road.

EA

Great replies guys....THANK YOU for the valuable information...

This IS the best place for NEWS and INFO from all across the country...

I'm with katfish on this one the ultrabird is a excellent choice for a 19t. it levels the playing field and is easy to tech. with the motor of the month thing and the fact that some of the sponsored guys can get killer motors the ultrabird only rule is better in the long run.

thanks dave i'll get you that fitty saturday! lol

thanks dave i'll get you that fitty saturday! lol

Whats a FITTY?? :freak:
Man don't bend over Dave!!! LOL :wave:

Seriously, I'm with using the Ultabird motor. Great motor best price! :thumbsup:

with the motor of the month thing
The more restrictions you put on motors, the more this becomes reality...Just look at STOCK.

When was the last time you heard, "This new Mod. combo just obsoleted everything else"??? The FB9 magnet many years ago.

Leave 19 turn with more tuning options so people can use it as a "feeder" class for modified.

good point jet there many up and downs to open 19t

think the big deal is that some places are back to letting the 19trn guys redrill the locking rings to get 40 degree's of timing....or more.. when everyone else is on a 36 degree max timing...

Billy

All boils down to how you view 19T, I think both serve a purpose.

as a Semi Mod class- Handwound, Various teardowns (Ti, Orion/Top, Epic Fuji, Epic D5, Trinity Cobalt2).
Its Great if guys like to dabble with different teardowns and winders.
Great stepping stone for mod experience and learning how to set timing etc.
Also great for tracks that do not have enough for mod racing, allows mod and factory guys a class to run in.

as a Super Stock class - Machine wound. (C2, Komodo, Ultrabird)
Allows Mr Joe Blow stock racer with some years of experience, can drive a line, can setup a car, move up to a class with more speed, but in turn doesn't have to buy every teardown/winder out there to see what works and what doesnt.


I have spoken to many stock racers around the country and to be quite honest most of them dont move up because they dont want the bother of having to own all the winders and teardowns to see what works. Plus alot of the tracks running 19T are not on the same page, some have Outlaw 19t classes where anything goes, some run ARCOR/ROAR rules some the C2's etc. So other guys just dont wanna bother moving up and having to travel around and have a motor to run at every track. Call them lazy or cheap but I think they have a valid point.

People complain about stock being motor of the month. A Monster motor going on 4 years old now is still a competitive motor and with a good car is capable of TQ-ing any stock race. Sure the Roar stocks and the Co27's have came out since, but you dont need them to be fast in stock. But I know the other side of the argurment is, if they sell em people will buy em. Sure. My stockers were all old so this past year I bought 4 Monsters, 2 Epics, and 1 Co27. Total cost (average of $28 a motor) = $196 and 3 different types of motors.
The other half of my racing this year was in the 19T ARCOR/ROAR class. I did not really have anything good motor wise so I needed all new.
I bought 1 Ti3, 3 Fuji's, 2 D5's and 1 Cobalt2. Total cost (average of $48 a motor) - $336 and 4 different types of motors.

Conclusion, either way, no matter the class you are gonna have to buy different motors to see what works for you and what doesn't. In stock some swear by Roar stocks, others by Co27, others the Monster. In 19T its the same way, some swear by the trusty D5, others the Fuji, some the Ti and some the Orion/Top.

Man that was long winded, its back to work for me, lol

Erock, but for 19 the fuji, d5, and cobalt all use the same armature, the magnets are the same in all three. The change between those motors are there endbells whick IMO don't matter since the motors don't run that hot, and the cobalt endbell doesn't cool very well anyhow. so all you needed to do is buy reedy and any of the trinity ones. so 2 of each, 4 motors total = $192

True Mike on only being an endbell change, but like anything when it's something new, every oval racer is gonna try it, lol

Mainly I bought the different fuji's and D5's to try out different winders

But the Komod dosent belong on the track with the others C1 andC2 motors ...Cant compete with the Komodo....Its a short short stack lightweight arm......

Humpty, I agree the komodo will outpreform the c1 and c2, but that's what all new motors should do to the older motor.

But the Komod dosent belong on the track with the others C1 andC2 motors ...Cant compete with the Komodo....Its a short short stack lightweight arm......

Hey Humpt, wuz up man, u in Zona yet or what?

Back to the motor talk. I am not saying a Komodo should be made to run with a c2 or Ultrabird. If a track goes the Spec 19T route, then just pick one motor and stick with it for a year. If something new comes out or a motor is no longer available then go with the new motor.

But the Komod dosent belong on the track with the others C1 andC2 motors ...Cant compete with the Komodo....Its a short short stack lightweight arm......

SO its just like all your D5-Fuji's? :thumbsup:

The wire length is the same as the C1-2's but the stack is 2-4 (not exaclty sure as I havent counted them.....dont have enough fingers and toes!!) stacks shorter than the C1-2's.

EA

shots fired by EA.
Just playin

btw, if anybody wants my stuff, I have some things for sale on the swap and sell - misc electronics thread.
Chargers, keyence, Power supply, Integy try, all nice stuff
check it out.

Keep it up EA or should I say purple Loofa boy....

Erock...Yes im in Az livinit up....
True meaning of Big Pimpin....Its awesome here ...I could see living here awhile....
Did you ever get back going with job and all ...Hope thing are going well See ya somewhere later......

Yep got back on track job wise, but selling off my racing stuff
Its time to hang it up for a while, get some things in order.

So far not missing it too much but I am sure I will get the itch down the road

Hey Humpty! You're missing a good race back home,it looks like a really good turnout,seems a little strange without ya.How ya liken those foam tires on Asphalt? everybody gives a big middle finger up to ya,LOL

The 19 turn motor rules, regardless of sanctioning body, are totally confusing and unorganized and need to be rectified.

It has become a full time job of track and shop owners just to keep track of what is accepted as "legal 19 turns" from week to week.

It's easy for the die-hards racers to keep our fingers on the pulse of what is currently legal, but it's impossible for the shops and track owners...not to mention them also keeping track of and policing the ever-growing amount of illegal arms, etc; being manufactured and sold.

We certainly don't need "On-Road" 19 turn motors and "Oval" 19 turn motors, like we currently do under ROAR. Hopefully with the influx of new blood at ROAR, some of these issues will get resolved.

It would be a great asset to the shops, tracks and racers if ALL the sanctioning bodies could all agree on one set of 19 Turn motor rules, regardless of scale, class or organization. :thumbsup:

I agree Todd.. it would be nice if there was one set of 19trn rules for all groups and classes...Would save a lot of trouble for the tracks clubs and the motor builders....

would save money for everyone in the long run for sure... and be less confusing.. and might help make it easier to get racers to cross back and forth between forms of racing..


Billy

The 19 turn motor rules, regardless of sanctioning body, are totally confusing and unorganized and need to be rectified.

It has become a full time job of track and shop owners just to keep track of what is accepted as "legal 19 turns" from week to week.

It's easy for the die-hards racers to keep our fingers on the pulse of what is currently legal, but it's impossible for the shops and track owners...not to mention them also keeping track of and policing the ever-growing amount of illegal arms, etc; being manufactured and sold.

We certainly don't need "On-Road" 19 turn motors and "Oval" 19 turn motors, like we currently do under ROAR. Hopefully with the influx of new blood at ROAR, some of these issues will get resolved.

It would be a great asset to the shops, tracks and racers if ALL the sanctioning bodies could all agree on one set of 19 Turn motor rules, regardless of scale, class or organization. :thumbsup:

Your absolutly right....and Roar agrees (I know because I am on one of the Roar committee's) BUT The only problem is if Roar does go with one 19 turn motor it will be a machine wound 24 degree motor and not handwounds. At least thats what I have been told in a round-a-bout way.

EA

The 19 turn motor rules, regardless of sanctioning body, are totally confusing and unorganized and need to be rectified.

It has become a full time job of track and shop owners just to keep track of what is accepted as "legal 19 turns" from week to week.

It's easy for the die-hards racers to keep our fingers on the pulse of what is currently legal, but it's impossible for the shops and track owners...not to mention them also keeping track of and policing the ever-growing amount of illegal arms, etc; being manufactured and sold.

We certainly don't need "On-Road" 19 turn motors and "Oval" 19 turn motors, like we currently do under ROAR. Hopefully with the influx of new blood at ROAR, some of these issues will get resolved.

It would be a great asset to the shops, tracks and racers if ALL the sanctioning bodies could all agree on one set of 19 Turn motor rules, regardless of scale, class or organization. :thumbsup:

Yes , something has to be done as its discouraging alot of racers !!!!
Somethings wrong when a hand-wound 19 turns 33,000 + @ 5 volts :confused:

Tracks are forced to pick a motor or two and allow just those.

R.S.

Your absolutly right....and Roar agrees (I know because I am on one of the Roar committee's) BUT The only problem is if Roar does go with one 19 turn motor it will be a machine wound 24 degree motor and not handwounds. At least thats what I have been told in a round-a-bout way.

EA

Machine wound/fixed timing motor is fine with me...better to fix the 19 turn classes then continue to kill it...:thumbsup:

Solution to 19Turn frustration.

Brushless 4300, same speed less hassle :thumbsup: .

Machine wound/fixed timing motor is fine with me...better to fix the 19 turn classes then continue to kill it...:thumbsup:

Absolutley!!!

Sonny hit the nail on the head, the most competitive racing I have been involved with in years, great fun too.

Machine wound/fixed timing motor is fine with me...better to fix the 19 turn classes then continue to kill it...:thumbsup:


If you want machine wound and locked timing RUN STOCK!

I agree there needs to be rules set for 19turn, and stuck to by all sanctioning bodies that are used in on-road and oval. However it needs to be kept as a limited mod class rather than an advanced stock class(as it would be w/ the fixed timing and machine wound).


Just my opinion,

Adam Liehr :dude:

Yes , something has to be done as its discouraging alot of racers !!!!
Somethings wrong when a hand-wound 19 turns 33,000 + @ 5 volts

...I've never cared about RPM, and I personally think TOO many people get caught up in the RPM thing.

I WANT POWER, POWER, POWER

This weekend in Vegas (Boulder City R/C Speedway) a paved oval track over 500 ft. long. Scot Petitclerc was the fastest w/ a FUJI based 19, but one of MY Ti based 19t's was barely a second behing him ALL weekend long with a driver in his very FIRST 19t race.

The Ti motor only dyno'd out at around 13,000 @ 5 volts, but DID it EVER have some power numbers.

This was a pure horsepower track. Not quite the same as the Velodromes but we'll find out there in July.

...I've never cared about RPM, and I personally think TOO many people get caught up in the RPM thing.

I WANT POWER, POWER, POWER

This weekend in Vegas (Boulder City R/C Speedway) a paved oval track over 500 ft. long. Scot Petitclerc was the fastest w/ a FUJI based 19, but one of MY Ti based 19t's was barely a second behing him ALL weekend long with a driver in his very FIRST 19t race.

The Ti motor only dyno'd out at around 13,000 @ 5 volts, but DID it EVER have some power numbers.

This was a pure horsepower track. Not quite the same as the Velodromes but we'll find out there in July.

You are correct. Watts is Power, plain and simple...the only reason anyone even needs to know the RPM is to select the proper rollout.:thumbsup:

If you want machine wound and locked timing RUN STOCK!

I agree there needs to be rules set for 19turn, and stuck to by all sanctioning bodies that are used in on-road and oval. However it needs to be kept as a limited mod class rather than an advanced stock class(as it would be w/ the fixed timing and machine wound).


Just my opinion,

Adam Liehr :dude:

My point was that the majority of the distributors, dealers and track owners consider the 19 turn Oval classes a headache since there are so many variations/combinations of motors, arms, cans, hoods, etc; just for oval.

Unfortunately for oval racers, On-Road is far more popular. Since banked track oval racing has died, the majority of the tracks nationwide are multi-purpose flat carpet facilities...that run both oval and on-road. If you want to continue the growth of racing, you need to make it less of a head ache for the individuals who drive the hobby forward: The distributors, dealers and track owners. We are in agreement that they should not have to carry "On-Road" and "Oval" 19 turn motors.

Since On-Road is more popular, the market tends to lean towards what the masses want...a "majority rules mentality" so to speak. My concern is that if the Oval racers and Organizations don't fix the problem themselves with a simple solution that works for everyone,(dealers, distributors, tracks and racers) the problem be may fixed for us, without our input, with a solution we may not like. Based on popularity and numbers, the On-Road guys have the greater say.

If it is to be treated as a "Limited Mod" class, then all approved Mod teardowns, arms, cans, brush systems, etc; should be legal with a spec, handwound 19 turn arm. That way, as long as it's legal for use in Mod, the components are legal for use in 19 turn. This still would put a big burden on the sanctioning bodies to make every configuration of motor and motor component easily identifyable and easy to tech for the tracks.

From the consumer/business end, if it is too complicated or difficult for the distributors and dealers to keep their fingers on the "latest/greatest" motors, or current inventory is quickly being obsoleted by new developments or technology, they tend to steer clear of that product as to not make themselves vulnerable to getting stuck with dead inventory. From the racing end, same applies but then you also have the tech issue as well. Basically, if 19 turn Oval motor rules don't become simpler and more streamlined, they won't get the needed support from the dealers,distributors and tracks.
If it's not relatively easy to tech, it won't be teched. Classes that become notorious for not being teched get cheated into non-existance.

Hope this is viewed as part of the solution...:thumbsup:
Todd Putnam
Putnam Propulsion

Todd, I think you are right. In the mid-Atlantic area(VA,NC,SC, and TN) some of the biggest classes are the single motor classes that use the Trinity 21 turn motor. The classes are a spec type with a spec battery and tires and a open class with the 21turn motor. Racers need to get just one type of motor, track owners do not have motors that can not be moved and only one motor to tech.

19 turn is the class that most Mod racers run when no open mod class is avalibale. These are the racers that like the hand wound motors, working with timming and using there sponsers motors when running 19. The 19 turn motor is loseing ground to brushless and nitro, but some tracks are still racing it.

A 19 turn mandate by ROAR would just about seal - the - deal to the hand wound motors in this area. With the Bird's motor and most of the Fl. area using that type of motor it would not take long. Also motor suppliers would have single base motor to sell like the pro stocks they build.

I've ran both fixed timing 19T and adj timing 19T and there really is not that much diffrence in lap times with a little tweaking the fixed timing is just as fast as the adj timing,I would just assume have the fixed timing 19T as no 19T.I run 21T limited class as well and it's always the biggest class at the local and regional races around here,which says a lot for a one motor type class,IT WORKS!

my only concern is magnet zappers with the fixed timing motors.

BUT i will say todd is dead spot on with the oval motor rules. the lack of rules in the 19 turn class is what turned on the oval racers in florida with the ultra bird motors. we love them and so does tech. their dirt cheap and allow the racer to adjust the timing his way. if it wasn't for the bird motor my next choice would have to be the locked 24 deg motor. problem with the locked 24 deg motors is their is more and more of them now. integy and checkpoint are different form the C2. so i would choose only one type of motor and mandate that everyone use it.