All I want is a rule book that lists all the rules, for all the classes. Posting information about a ROAR National event, quoting from the revised rule book and am told that the information is wrong. Even one of the ROAR directors and a member one of the rules committees stated that the information provided in the revised rule book is wrong. It was even mentioned that there are special rules that are not published in the rule book. This is from the organization that represents us to the world organization (IFMAR). I am very unhappy with this, it is causing me great stress and duress (something I am in this hobby to relieve).
I am sure I will be told that ROAR directors and such are not paid ,that I should be grateful for their work. If their work is flawed how can I be happy with it. All I want is guidelines that are real, so that I can quote from the rule book and be correct.

See: "RC Vehicles, Oval Racing, Oval Racing General Discussion, ROAR Rule Book is Flawed". That is where this item is being discussed, please post replies there. Thanks.

ROAR should mail rule revisions to its members everytime theres a change or post it immediatey after its changed on their website.

See: "RC Vehicles, Oval Racing, Oval Racing General Discussion, ROAR Rule Book is Flawed". That is where this item is being discussed, please post replies there. Thanks.

THIS IS the forum for ROAR on this site. I do apologize but I cannot click into every page to continue ROAR conversations. Please, should you wish to discuss this with a ROAR Official, this is where I can be found.

thank you and I do apologize for any inconvenice....

Dawn

ROAR should mail rule revisions to its members everytime theres a change or post it immediatey after its changed on their website.

Rule changes, additions, deletions and modifications are immediately posted on the website and in the RevUP ONLINE! as per the bylaws and rules.

To mail out each change to each member is an expense that can be easily solved by people knowing to check the website should there be a question regarding the rules.

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I said I wouldnt chime in on this one but Im going to attempt to be constructive. rccarpy has a lot of good points so far as do others above. ROAR really needs to act like they care (not just Dawn Sanchez) ROAR as a whole. We (the racers, & manu's) are lining your pockets quite nicely and there in absolutely NO COMMUNICATIONS. Current legal bodies are still not updated for anyone. Sure bits and piecs are but not all have either been removed or updated. How many more months or sancitoned events will go by before Bob does something. My new Body has been in for submission for a month and a half now. Cashed my check but not one phone call or email as to anyone recieving it or its approval or disapproval. ARCOR had it done in less than 1 week and made the annoucement and a personal email in regards to its status. I know what is done is a thankless job at times but rccarpy made a lot of excellent points of issues that really tick everyone off and that hurts everyone including the sport as a whole. We have got to have rules, Im all for that but dont ask for more trouble than you will have in general such as some things mentioned in above posts. Dont allow bodies, or motors to run that are not available to the public, or stray from the rules.


Stick to the written rules, dont change them days before a big race, scedule around other sancitoned events and time of year that the most possible entries can be achieved, scedule at the best track in a certain region for the regional or national events, COMMUNICATE, and act like the racers, tracks, and manu's matter and you will have a lot more friends.

You need only look at the number of NON-Sanctioned races that are begining to take place every year and the car count of those events to see what need to change. When non roar events go into 100 to 150 car counts and roar regionals and nationals are lucky to hit 70 to 80........well you know the answer to that one.
Dont anyone go off on me please. Im not trying to upset anyone but I want to see the regional/national events have the impact that they once did and I will be nothing but supportive in helping in that effort, but ROAR has got to show me that we matter

.......nevermind.............................

ROAR is not killing oval in my opinion. Except for maybe "handout tires". They need to get rid of that BS...... When an entry fee well exceeds 100.00, you have to ask yourself if it's really worth it. The answer would be NO!

As far as rules..... make the rules, implement them from Jan 1st to Dec 31st. Submissions for new products should be only one time a year. Which would mean they would need to be turned in by Dec 31st of the previous year. Racing is from year to year, why not have rules that stand for the whole year? There is a concrete season and a carpet season, don't screw things up by implementing new rules before one season starts or end, because if they are not exactly the same time, someone is getting screwed. Why in the world would you have a product being ran in the 2006 Paved National when it was not legal in the 2006 Carpet National?

I'm not even gonna get started..... All I can say is look back and implement some things that were done a certain way in the past.

Current legal bodies are still not updated for anyone.

My new Body has been in for submission for a month and a half now. Cashed my check but not one phone call or email as to anyone recieving it or its approval or disapproval.

UH??? I just checked the site.. your bodies are there and have been for over a month now. Also, reported in the RevUP ONLINE! issue... :)

Here is an example of what is not happening. I may be missing something but there is no mention of the WT2210 HDX anywhere Dawn nor have I been contacted by anyone to its status. Nice to see the Vice prez doesnt even know what is going on.

Here is an example of what is not happening. I may be missing something but there is no mention of the WT2210 HDX anywhere Dawn nor have I been contacted by anyone to its status. Nice to see the Vice prez doesnt even know what is going on.

Cheap shot... :)

Regardless, I don't know MFG numbers of bodies and seriously, I don't think that's something that should be held against anybody... If that body was submitted and was included in your payment and it had no issues, yes, it should be on the list.

No, I do not know the status of product approvals.... no reason for me to until I'm notified of information for upload.

Regardless, ONCE AGAIN, I will spend the buck and make the phone calls for you... :)

ROAR is not killing oval in my opinion. Except for maybe "handout tires". They need to get rid of that BS...... When an entry fee well exceeds 100.00, you have to ask yourself if it's really worth it. The answer would be NO!



Agreed... this is something that should go to Oval Class Committee, chairperson Kenny Bergshultz

Why was that a "cheap shot" Dawn. That was in no way, shape or form a cheap shot. It is the truth. Sorry you cant take it as such. You answered incorrectly and I set the record straight so stop with the show for everyone. This all comes back to Bob once again not doing his job. If he did his job as it should be done you would not being hearing a peep out of me. There are bodies listed that are out of date, bodies listed that are not available to the public and etc. Nothing is updated, Why. And it is not just my products so dont go that way with this.


If the organization is going to exist you have got to keep things up to date. Why is that so hard and why when someone finally says something is it always turned into an issue. Just do it right when it comes to approvals and etc. Dont chage rules mid stream, dont allow products to run that are not available to the public. If you do these simple things as they should be then the rest of the complaints can be looked at but not put on high alert status.

Why in the world would you have a product being ran in the 2006 Paved National when it was not legal in the 2006 Carpet National?



Agreed... this is why the whole battery issue baffles me... people want two or three time a year approvals. BUT.... if we went to once a year motors and bodies like batteries... I am wondering if that truly does benefit the MFG's and racers alike.

If we ran all same class nationals at the same time of year, maybe a help... but that doesn't consider location and weather concerns, etc....

Complex.

Why was that a "cheap shot" Dawn. That was in no way, shape or form a cheap shot.

Because, it was a cheap shot. As ROAR VP, I'm very well informed... some topics I choose to not publically discuss. As for your situation, I have and will continue to bust my butt for you....

choose to berate me again, that service will end. In no way am I obligated to do another person's leg work. If you don't like the lack of communication, attempt some yourself with a pleasant attitude this time.

And, sorry if you don't like my tone in that one... I have feelings as well.

I witnessed some smooth ROAR moves..This time Roar rep. Dave Lee came and asked for Hutkay's motor and battery AFTER he had been done racing and marshalling, the motor and batts were allready removed,and he did this to several others that week-end...seems to me he should have let the tech officials do there job post race inspection....not an hour later.


Again paved oval nat. in Blountville Tenn. last year. I entered the 1/12 19-turn class, and I was well aware of the written rules but low and behold during the drivers meeting We were informed that 1/12 19 was considered a modified class and timming wasnt to be an issue..Hmmmm...nice!!!!

Amazingly I never heard that come up again.
Recently at the carpet oval nats. at Sandhills there was a body rule that was quite the upraising, I was told the bodies had to have numbers molded in the window which was fine cause I new that before I ever left home, some people didnt know this and were upset and of course Dave Lee was there to straighten it out...so we just ran whatever we had....nice rules when you gonna start enforcing them???????




Ok, I would like to respond to these paragraphs:

1. The DRO has the right to inspect equipment at any time. In the rule book..... although, I will inquire as to the reason for this one.

2. Oval racing - 19T is modified.

3. In the rule book since 2003 that bodies must have MFG ID numbers. I don't understand the confusion on this one.

Not picking... just trying to break down the complaints so we can have some resolution.

:)

Im not picking at you Dawn or the work you have done, but you shouldnt have to do this your right. I have never once heard a thing from Bob Ingesoll who is supposed to be doing this. Kinda gets frustrating when time and time again the result is the same. The racers and tracks have a right to have this stuff updated weekly if need be and it just dont happen. It is sad to see things go this way because I would be one of the biggest supporters and backers if I saw a hint at progress. And Im not refering to my stuff alone. things as a whole End of story for me, same stuff different week

I have never once heard a thing from Bob Ingesoll who is supposed to be doing this. Kinda gets frustrating when time and time again the result is the same. The racers and tracks have a right to have this stuff updated weekly if need be and it just dont happen. It is sad to see things go this way because I would be one of the biggest supporters and backers if I saw a hint at progress. And Im not refering to my stuff alone. things as a whole End of story for me, same stuff different week

Basically, I believe this thread is about how the rule book is flawed and ME attempting to understand the issue. There is a thread about you not receiving notification timely regarding your bodies and the story behind all that that I have NOT publically posted....

so, please...

if you have a rule that you find issue with and need to discuss, lets continue... otherwise, lets have this topic end and prevent negative progress. :) Thank you.

Also, the website is updated immediately and the RevUP reflects any changes in the prior month and a half... so, lets not inflate your particular issue to others that they believe what you say is correct.. its not. In your situation, yes... I believe you were not communicated with properly and that situation was resolved.. two months ago. Again, thanks for letting this drop????

Ok Dawn I need you to clarify something. And I have been a Roar Member on and off since the early 1980s . Are you saying with 19turn being a Mod. event I cant run 19turn since I run stock ? I Know I cant run open Mod and stock at the same event. Also since brushless is also not 27 turn stock motor is it also considered modified ?I have seen first hand at roar events regionals,and extra. People that run four cell stock also enter 19turn. But not open Mod. If this is the case is realy worth it to travel 8 plus hour to the regional or nationals just to only be allowed to run stock ? Maybe if I could run four and six cell stock at the same event but six cell stock is dead. Also with all the respect meant to you Dawn I belive Murdock has a good point about his body the HDX . A rule was followed buy Rob for submital for the HDX body and it hasnt been approved and I for one want to know more info asap about its approval because the nationals are right around the corner and I would like to run this body. It show me that he is doing what he can from his end and you are trying from yours but for some reason it has got bogged somewhere . This must be settled quickly so people can buy his product and practice with it in confidence knowing that it will be allowed at the nationals.

Matt Bayless

Are you saying with 19turn being a Mod. event I cant run 19turn since I run stock ? I Know I cant run open Mod and stock at the same event. Also since brushless is also not 27 turn stock motor is it also considered modified ?I have seen first hand at roar events regionals,and extra. People that run four cell stock also enter 19turn. But not open Mod. If this is the case is realy worth it to travel 8 plus hour to the regional or nationals just to only be allowed to run stock ? Maybe if I could run four and six cell stock at the same event but six cell stock is dead.

Ok, first of all... if we are discussing oval racing, I am sorry but I'm not up on all the differences that oval has versus the rest of ROAR classes. I have asked Kenny Bergschultz to chime in here...

19T is called Super Stock. At the off road stock nationals, participants may run stock buggy and 19T buggy. If oval needs changes, I would suggest getting the class committee on board with this idea. This is how rules are changed.



Also with all the respect meant to you Dawn I belive Murdock has a good point about his body the HDX . A rule was followed buy Rob for submital for the HDX body and it hasnt been approved and I for one want to know more info asap about its approval because the nationals are right around the corner and I would like to run this body.

And yes, with all due respect to Rob as well... this isn't the place. His particular situation is not one I'm going to discuss on this thread or publically but I would be more than happy to discuss with him, personally. I understand he sent a body on March 10th and ROAR has cashed his check. That's as far as I'm going to go on that one, here. I understand the nats you would like to run this body are around the corner and ONCE again... I'll do the legwork necessary.

I don't respond well to berating comments about me or the organization I believe in... constructive criticism is always welcome... lets discuss the difficulties and attempt to find solutions... really, griping will get you no where.

Dawn I wasnt tryng to be berating to you or roar that is why I poudly posted I have been a roar member since the early 1980s . I also put with respect to you because I didn't want you to feel like I was pileing on you . You taking my comments compeltely the wrong way . I just needed some info and you just slamed on me at the end of your post thanks alot .

..........................

Dawn I wasnt tryng to be berating to you or roar that is why I poudly posted I have been a roar member since the early 1980s . I also put with respect to you because I didn't want you to feel like I was pileing on you . You taking my comments compeltely the wrong way . I just needed some info and you just slamed on me at the end of your post thanks alot .


Matt, your right... although the bottom part of my post was for general consumption and I should have been clearer about that. I do apologize.... excuses are, long day and truly, oval questions get me razzled because there are so many differences with oval than the rest of ROAR. One thing I hate.. the general rules should be the same for all..... but, hey, that's me...

I am sorry and I did not mean to come off like the bi*** I'm sounding like today.

Ok I understand checking stuff at random, but his intent was to dq a driver well after his run, who's to say what said driver handed the director a dud.

19 turn is mod.???? That means timming isnt an issue? Not that I care personally but alot of people that dont travel to ROAR races from my home track look to me for answers on Roar rules.....If I'm not clear then there not clear and that leads to more confussion. I will reread my rule book when I get home, I dont want to stick my foot in my mouth till I go over it again.

Since 2003 I have been to EVERY ROAR oval national event and havent seen it enforced till Sandhills this year, and even then they made a ruling to let it slide.Hell even I ran bodies with out numbers molded in the bodies...

Remember this is not to step on your toe's I was just looking to clear some of this up.Jeff Carapellatti

Jeff, let me look into this.... if you could. :)

This thread is called the rule book is flawed... honestly, performance of an official just can't be discussed because, well, I wasn't there and I need to trust our officials make the right calls. I've been the DRO at many events and yes, I question my calls from time to time.. but when I'm needing to make a judgement I do the best I can. I will ask David about this.... and I do trust his judgement.

...........................

I havent looked at the book as of late but there is a difference in 19 turn and 19 turn super stock if Im not mistaken. 19 turn super stock is fixed timing and 19 turn mod is non fixed timing. Is that not the way the book reads. If not I stand corrected.

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That is a flaw that would be easy enough to fix. I know there was some confusion at my local track early in the year as well. The road guys were running "19 turn" as it is refered to and a guy showed up, was running a timed motor and the track DQ'ed him for the race (If think) and he never came back again. The eliminate confusion, tracks need to make that very clear and the roar book should not list them both as 19 turn. Maybe to save headaches call the fixed timing one "super stock" and the other 19 turn. Hmmmm, original isnt it:) but you get my drift on that.

So..... is brushless classed as modified as the rulebook implies? This means that I can't run stock and brushless at the same race. What a pity.

That is a flaw that would be easy enough to fix. I know there was some confusion at my local track early in the year as well. The road guys were running "19 turn" as it is refered to and a guy showed up, was running a timed motor and the track DQ'ed him for the race (If think) and he never came back again. The eliminate confusion, tracks need to make that very clear and the roar book should not list them both as 19 turn. Maybe to save headaches call the fixed timing one "super stock" and the other 19 turn. Hmmmm, original isnt it:) but you get my drift on that.

I think the difference is the wrapping and the endbell, correct? Oval and the rest of ROAR classes are different.... really, I'm not up on the oval rules as they seem to evolve each year with requested changes.

BUT.. it would appear we have a "flaw" for lack of a better word.. lets work on that one?

19 turn is mod.???? That means timming isnt an issue? Jeff Carapellattiso this means all the timing we want in 19t oval i thought we were limited to 36 degrees

Hi Dawn,

The differences for On-road and Oval 19 turns motors are.

Oval: Machinewound/Handwound, Adjustable timing, based on any Roar legal mod motor, small standup brushes only, Mabuchi Cross wrapped armature, tagged 19 turn with 19awg wire.

On/Off-road: Machine would, fixed timing 24 degrees, any brush hood, ball bearings, mabuchi cross wrapped armature, Tagged 19 turn with 19awg wire armature.

Those are the main differences. Currently only 1 motor is legal for On/offroad use. The Trinity C2.

EA

Also guys I know it sounds like a recording but Dawn is just a messenger...She cant do it all by herself. If you really want something changed with the Oval rules its best to email Kenny B....He's the head of the oval committee and he is the one who presents the oval proposals to the Excomm (which Dawn is on along with Kenny) and then it can be evaluated better.

She alone cant do anything but pass information along and ask questions. Just be thankful that she does come on here and try to communicate with the public....Something that not many of the other Excomm members do!!

EA

Rob...if we're talking about the same guy here, nobody has ever been DQ'd at the plex, especially on the onroad side. The guy you were referring to couldn't figure out how to make his car go fast so he stopped going and blamed on our motors.

Believe me, we were all running legal fixed endbell 19t's. If he was asked to stop running an oval 19t that's one thing, but he wouldn't have been DQ'd for it. He never came back because he was frustrated...his bad. :wave:




Now I personally would like to see oval and onroad use the same rules because of instances like this where it gets really confusing.

At our onroad regional, I wouldn't let this kid run his cobalt 19t, so he left in a hissy fit, and blamed it all on roar even though it was on the flyer, internet and announced at the drivers meeting that the chamealeon 2 was the only legal 19t.

Now, there are a couple phrases in the rulebook that state that the roar official can modify a rule if it benefits the race, which is where allowing bodies that aren't legal, but everyone owns, would come into play (I think).

Also, I think Dawn mistated on the 19t thing. Because in oval, 19t motors are based on any modified motor, I think she had that going through her head.

It is 36 degree maximum timing.

I've had to answer a whole lot of questions in my region (8) about this stuff. At least you'all are doing the right thing by asking questions about the whole thing so it can get resolved and fixed before the next big national... :) It never hurts to e-mail or call your region rep either, of course most of the time we just end up calling Dawn.

Oval is adjustable timing and on-road/off-road is fixed timing.What is so hard to understand? It's been that way for awhile. When you go to a race you should if you have any questions about motors-batteries- bodies or anything else contact the race director first.I just guess common sense and I've been doing this along time. It's real easy to blame ROAR everybody does- it's the in thing to do! As a region director I do get phone calls and e-mails about rules for a race all the time.With regional coming this summer I'm sure I'm going to get many again- especially "why can't I wear Flip Flops"!

..........................

No matter what I say would make you happy so I'll end my participation by just saying go have fun.

WELL I do check all the ROAR rules, thats whats the problem...duh! Roar changes or alters the rules at the event....Common sense says read my post again.....

And this is what I am perceiving as the problem... if I understand you correctly, the issue is you are not finding consistency with different officials at national level events? I think you are stating one official made one ruling you found confusing from the written word of the book and another official made a opposed ruling at another event?

This would be fruit for discussion... consistency among the officials... :)

although, if I may point out this particular statement in the rule book:

1.2.8 For Level 3 or 4 events, the final interpretation of any questioned ROAR rule is the responsibility of the Designated ROAR Official for that event. Special rulings may be made by the Designated ROAR Official at an event to amend, suspend, or modify existing rules to account for conditions arising from the location of the event, the condition of the course, weather conditions, or other circumstances requiring such a ruling. Such special rulings will be effective for the event in question only, with no precedence being established for any subsequent event.


This particular statement I have found reason to use on several occasions - technical inspections, scoring, track changes, driving behavior... its not easy being an official and I would hope you guys would give them a break at large events. Its time we take away from work, family - at our own expense - to deal with racers for three to four days in sometimes precarious situations. :)

Hi Dawn,

The differences for On-road and Oval 19 turns motors are.

Oval: Machinewound/Handwound, Adjustable timing, based on any Roar legal mod motor, small standup brushes only, Mabuchi Cross wrapped armature, tagged 19 turn with 19awg wire.

On/Off-road: Machine would, fixed timing 24 degrees, any brush hood, ball bearings, mabuchi cross wrapped armature, Tagged 19 turn with 19awg wire armature.

Those are the main differences. Currently only 1 motor is legal for On/offroad use. The Trinity C2.

EA

Thank you... :) And for your support... sometimes message forums get a little out of hand and truly, I shouldn't even respond to some posts.

I appreciate all you guys really trying to keep this civil and informative. :)

Ya know what??? Just forget I ever even said anything.I am sure it is all in my head, me and the other 75 or less people that have attended the last few Roar national events.Hmmm. Then again if attendance gets any lower I will be able to argue with my self at the track, cause Ill be the only one left.
I plan on attend all the Roar races I can in the future, but don't look to me to raise any more questions or bring anything to anyones attention.....Jeff

Ya know what??? Just forget I ever even said anything.I am sure it is all in my head, me and the other 75 or less people that have attended the last few Roar national events.Hmmm. Then again if attendance gets any lower I will be able to argue with my self at the track, cause Ill be the only one left.
I plan on attend all the Roar races I can in the future, but don't look to me to raise any more questions or bring anything to anyones attention.....Jeff

WHAT? I'm really doing my best attempt to understand the situation here.....

if change is what you are seeking.. then work for it. If griping is all you want to do... really... lets ask Hank to delete this thread?

C'mon - step up and have a conversation that matters, please?

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Froboy, if it is jeff G your talking about that is the case I was refering to but wether he had the right or wrong motor is of no issue, he should have know what was being run, and Im with you on that one. I told Jeff the same thing. I was told he was running a timed motor and did not know that the road guys were running locked endbells. Doesnt matter to me, he should know what to run either way.

RCCarpy - you have a personal message.

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This is my first post.So be easy on me. I was at the Carpet Nationals in N.C. last month, I also was one of the racers that benifitted from the body rule change.But in all fairness the rule book did state that the bodies used had to have a part nuber in the window, I was using the Bolink Tuarus which is the same as the Windtunnel it just didn't have a number.
I understood why the rule was changed, but it still was my fault for not knowing in advance. I also agree that a rule is a rule and that should be the end of it. Unless there is a problem with track conditions, weather, saftey, or even scoring, then Roar should be able to overturn any rule.
Roar can't please everyone, but Arnie had the biggest influence on the director and he of all racers should have know about this rule well in advance....Just my 2 cents worth.

2 things

1st the body part number thing was a good move only problem is there are guys out there sitting on a stack of protoform ford taurus's that are perfectly legal but don't have the part number in the window because they were made 6 years ago. that is were having knowledgable roar reps at the race comes in handy. they can look at a body and tell what it is.

2nd the whole motor issue is stupid absolutely stupid. i don't know why they haven't just changed the rule. make 1 set of 19t rules. stand up brushes only adjustable timing for all classes that run 19t. i don't know why it's so hard seeing as there is only 1 fixed timing 19t currently legal. what this does is take all the confusion away from the rules. the 2 biggest on road races in the country ( snowbirds and Cleveland) used the ultrabird 19T. lol

the 2 biggest on road races in the country ( snowbirds and Cleveland) used the ultrabird 19T. lol

I think the biggest on road race in the country is The Vegas IIC...over 500 cars of nothing but Road course in its first year and they use fixed timing 19 turns...

And as far as most are concerned it and the Snowbirds are the only goods one to attend. Cleveland just plain SUCKS!!!

But yea your right....Roar just needs one set of 19 turn motor rules....It was much easier when they were fixed timing. Easier to tech...didnt have to wonder, as much, if the guy that just blew your doors off is cheating

EA