This was on the IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/news/sb/2006-03-30/#film2) today. If, as Spinal Tap has told us, there is a thin line between brilliance and stupidity, which side of the line does this fall on.

"In an announcement that left many analysts scratching their heads, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment President Benjamin Feingold announced Wednesday that the company will release its first batch of movies on high-definition Blu-ray discs on May 23 -- even though no players will be available at that time on which to play them. Sony has indicated that the first players may not be available until November. In an interview with Home Media Retailing, Feingold said, "We realize there may be some delays on the hardware side, but we are going to honor our commitment to release movies when we said we would." Questions immediately arose concerning what retailers will do with the disks when they receive them. Said Feingold: "There are two schools of thought: A dealer could have them for publicity purposes, to prime the market, or we can ship them later, when hardware is on the market. But the important point is, we can meet the date -- that's the key." "

Googling reveals that Sony has a long and unfortunate association with many unembraced formats: beta, minidisk, microMV, memory stick, UMD ... maybe BluRay?

I have a Japanese friend who says that in Japan, Sony is not even considered in the top 10 of companies to buy electrical goods from. I'm not overly impressed with their service or products either.

Here is one fool that won't be on the blu-ray train. I got rid of my betas for vhs , then to dvd. No thank you.

I'm getting a PS3 when it comes out so the question will be when will I get a standalone HD-DVD player?

I've Actually herd Beta was a superior Picture to VHS, but I suppose the proof is that Beta is gone right? Same with the RCA "Selectavision" I got Burned on I bought this Disc System in 1981 for a Hundred Bucks then the LP Sized Discs that you never touched (they were encased in Plastic that you stuck in the machine) Anyhoo I bought "Magnum Force" and The Planet Of The Apes and Used Cars for $12.00 ea. Shoulda Smelled a rat BUT I waited about two weeks before I got my next Pizza Hut Pay Check and when I went back to buy some more films,Well the Video Store Acted like they'ed had their Memories Erased The RCA Selectavisions were gone Poof I shoulda Known when the avarage Video cassette Machine was Sellin' for $200 or $300! Doah!!! Never again Hell I just bought an Extra VHS Machine (I'm hording Tapes) at Goodwill for 10 Bucks! WITH A REMOTE and all the Features that I couldn't afford 15 years ago! and my local Pawn Shop Has a Huge Basket (bigger than Wal-Mart's) Full of Vhs Tapes 5 for 4 Bucks! I've got back up copies of all the Important Films! But I ask you HOW MANY GODDAMNED COPIES OF ARMEGEDON DID THEY MAKE or E.T.!? They've become like the Carol King "Tapestry" Album or "Frampton Comes Alive" you can find them in EVERY Thrift store in the USA!!! I'm tellin' Ya'! lol
BTW What is this Blu ray anyway?
John/Lonfan

Blu Ray is one of two competing High Definition DVD formats.

Beta was superior to VHS. Television news used it long after it was no longer a viable consumer product. If I remember correctly, it failed because the owners of Beta were not as willing to lease the technology to other companies. Sort of what happened with Mac vs IBM.

A product's success often depends as much on marketing as quality.

Coby, We'll be getting the PS3 too. Sony is going to at least attempt to release a product that's not bug ridden.

lonfan lamented:
I bought "Magnum Force" and The Planet Of The Apes and Used Cars for $12.00 ea. Shoulda Smelled a rat BUT I waited about two weeks before I got my next Pizza Hut Pay Check and when I went back to buy some more films,Well the Video Store Acted like they'ed had their Memories Erased The RCA Selectavisions were gone Poof :p

...and asked this:
I ask you HOW MANY GODDAMNED COPIES OF ARMEGEDON DID THEY MAKE or E.T.!? They've become like the Carol King "Tapestry" Album or "Frampton Comes Alive" you can find them in EVERY Thrift store in the USA!!! :lol:

Beta was superior to VHS. Television news used it long after it was no longer a viable consumer product. If I remember correctly, it failed because the owners of Beta were not as willing to lease the technology to other companies. Sort of what happened with Mac vs IBM.

A product's success often depends as much on marketing as quality.

This am correct.

I lived through that, and watched my 300 or so Beta tapes become useless.
The Beta format was superior in every way to VHS - better picture quality, more compact cassette, better record speed selections with better quality at all speeds. Early decks had the Beta I, BII and BIII record speeds. An L500 was 1 hour at BI, 2 hours at BIII and three hours at BIII. Even at Beta III speed, the picture quality was as good as a VHS at SP. At LP, VHS looks noticeably worsethan even Beta III.

IIRC, the only company Sony licensed the Beta technology to was Sanyo, whiel Mastushita spread the VHS license around liberally. The lack of availability spelled death in the Great Format Wars.

as if that werent enough:
sony bites it again...... from the imdb

Raising new questions about the suitability of portable devices for watching motion pictures, Paramount and Universal, citing poor sales, have stopped releasing movies on Sony's Universal Media Disc (UMD), which plays on the popular PlayStation Portable gaming device. According to today's (Thursday) Hollywood Reporter, other studios are cutting back on releases, while retailers are reducing the amount of shelf space devoted to UMDs. "No one's watching movies on PSP," the president of one of the six major studios' home entertainment divisions told the trade publication. "It's a game player, period." But Benjamin Feingold, president of Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, said that he believed owners of the device were loading movies into its memory stick and watching them that way.

when are they gonna learn that demand drives the market, even more than technology; that they cant just ram a new format down our throats

I figured the PSP/UMD format for a loser from the beginning, why would you want to watch movies on it's tiny screen, when portable DVD players with 7" or more screens are less than a hundred bucks? Not to mention not being able to play the UMD movie on anything else.

After the PS2 launch problems, no way I'd buy a PS3 till I was certain the bugs were worked out.

when are they gonna learn that demand drives the market, even more than technology; that they cant just ram a new format down our throatsI wouldn't be too harsh on them; they tried something that didn't catch on. It happens. I never sensed an attempt to ram anything down my throat. And they weren't really attempting to replace an existing format such as DVD.

Another factor not cited in the quote is Apple's current iPod with video (with rumors of a more video-centric iPod possibly being released any day now). It isn't particularly difficult to convert a standard DVD movie into a relatively compact file that will play on the iPod. For example, an 85-minute animated feature I converted myself -- with higher quality than strictly necessary -- occupies just over 500 MB, while a 44-minute episode of LOST I downloaded from the iTunes music store takes up 183 MB). I don't use it to watch stuff on the iPod itself; I can use a standard camcorder cable to connect it to a TV or a VCR. I have all the second-season episodes of LOST that have aired to date on my iPod, and over the last three nights I've been recording them to VHS so I can send them to a friend who wants to get caught up with the show. And hey, if I get bored on trip, I do have something to watch if I choose. The screen is small, but it does look good.

I suspect these iPods may have stolen some of Sony's thunder (again!).

I still think Blu-Ray has an edge over HD DVD -- all else being more-or-less equal -- because of significantly greater capacity. I won't be on board with either format for a while. I need a new TV first! ;)

Qapla'

SSB

I still think Blu-Ray has an edge over HD DVD -- all else being more-or-less equal -- because of significantly greater capacity.

But Blu-Ray is going to fail for one simple reason: Compatability. HD DVD players will play the new discs and the DVD collections people already own. Why have a DVD player and a Blu-Ray player when you can just have one player? I know there are technical differences, but those aren't what's going to convince the general public.

I was given to understand that both Blu-Ray and HD DVD will also play conventional DVDs -- at least, that's what I've read several times on The Digital Bits ...

And here's confirmation from a Blu-Ray FAQ I found ...

http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#bluray_backwards_compatible

Qapla'

SSB

But Blu-Ray is going to fail for one simple reason: Compatability. HD DVD players will play the new discs and the DVD collections people already own. Why have a DVD player and a Blu-Ray player when you can just have one player? I know there are technical differences, but those aren't what's going to convince the general public.

Blu-ray plays conventional DVDs. Both high-def disc formats are backwards compatible.

Between the two formats, Blu-ray has the superior specs in both maximum capacity and playback bitrate.

I recently saw a demo of the HD-DVD format at a local electronics store. The picture, overall, was very impressive. But, subtle areas like gradations, fog, cloudy skies, spotlights, etc. all showed contouring and banding artifacts. This is due to insufficient bitrate to handle the compressed image.

I've seen Blu-ray demonstrated several times over the past couple of years, and not once have I seen the kinds of visible artifacts that I witnessed on the HD-DVD demo.

Blu-ray's bitrate, at 54mbits per second, is 50% higher than HD-DVD's rate of only 36mbits per second. That 50% difference in bitrate is significant when it comes to reproducing a clear, visible artifact-free picture.

Both formats are new and the respective companies are being faced with the reality vs. hype of bringing them out to market.

OK, I stand corrected. I hadn't checked the specs in a while; originally Blu-Ray was announced as players not being backward compatible, which I thought was a big mistake.

The one concern I have, looking at the two formats, is the protection layer on Blu-Ray DVDs is 1/6 as thick as on HD-DVD, though Blu-Ray uses a hard coating. Still, that leaves me a little concern over durability of the discs, though there may be no practical difference.

With compatability no issue, then, I would guess Blu-Ray's biggest hurdle will be name recognition. Simply put, its competition incorporates DVD as part of its name, and that isn't going to hurt HD-DVD.

And it's going to be odd to see Blu-Ray discs on the shelves when nobody can watch them. But hey, if it's definitely better, hopefully it'll get adopted.

The difference this time compared to Beta vs VHs is that Blu-Ray has the better picture quality. Now people can tell the difference with the large screen TVs and people are willing to pay more for better quality.

It does sound like Sony are making the same mistakes but only the market will decide the outcome.

It will be a while before I convert as I don't have a TV yet that can take advantage of the improved quality


Alex
Styrofoam Guy

This am correct.

I lived through that, and watched my 300 or so Beta tapes become useless.
The Beta format was superior in every way to VHS - better picture quality, more compact cassette, better record speed selections with better quality at all speeds. Early decks had the Beta I, BII and BIII record speeds. An L500 was 1 hour at BI, 2 hours at BIII and three hours at BIII. Even at Beta III speed, the picture quality was as good as a VHS at SP. At LP, VHS looks noticeably worsethan even Beta III.


You guys neglected to mention the recording capacity was the biggest issue that influenced most people to pass on the Beta format in favor of VHS.

Beta
=========================

K-30/L-250 30 mins



BI - 30 mins - 1/2 hr


BII - 60 mins - 1 hr


BIII - 90 mins - 1 1/2 hrs


K-60/L-500


BI - 60 mins - 1 hr


BII - 120 mins - 2 hrs


BIII - 180 mins - 3 hrs


L-750


BI - 90 mins - 1 1/2 hrs


BII - 180 mins - 3 hrs


BIII - 270 mins - 4 1/2 hrs
-------------------------------------------------------
VHS
=========================
VK125/T-60


SP- 60 mins - 1 hr


LP- 120 mins - 2 hrs


SLP/EP- 180 mins - 3 hrs


VK250/T-120


SP- 120 mins - 2 hrs


LP- 240 mins - 4 hrs


SLP/EP- 360 mins - 6 hrs


T-160


SP- 160 mins - 2 hrs 40 mins


LP- 320 mins - 5 hrs 20 mins


SLP/EP- 480 mins - 8 hrs


I started buying VHS tapes in 1978. I remember buying an RCA tape for $27.88 to record 4 hours at LP. It took a few years before prices started dropping, but by then, Sony was already too far behind VHS to catch up. Sony tried making the quality better with ED, SuperBeta Hi-Fi, and they also tried using thinner tape to record even more onto longer tape lengths. VHS countered with S-VHS, Hi-Fi, and longer, thinner tape also. No matter what Sony tried, the longer recording time of VHS was something Sony couldn't overcome. The higher picture quality of Beta lost out to the economy of VHS.

The fact that rewinding a VHS tape across the spinning playback head made them wear out faster, that fact that Beta has a far wider color bandwidth, and that VHS machines my friends had constantly jammed made ME buy Beta. I had a 1980 SL2500 which I still have and still works. I even had a Sony Soundstream PCM encoder for digital recordings (Audio) for a few years.

The cheaper is better is why Windows is so popular. Crappy but popular. JUST LIKE VHS.

The fact that you couldn't record an average 90-120min movie onto a Beta tape until BII came out was a BIG deal with most people. Why Sony didn't make their cassettes just a little bigger to begin with is beyond me. That blunder led to the format's end in the consumer retail market.

Laserdiscs also suffered low sales for years despite the much higher quality of the picture. I remember hearing quite a few different people asking me why anyone would want laserdiscs since you can't record on them like you can with videocassettes. Higher picture quality didn't seem to make any kind of impression on them. Neither did the fact that people had been buying vinyl records---a NON-recording format---for years.

If DVDs hadn't been so cheap with the players having the added capability of playing back CDs, I'm certain they would have not been successful either. Low prices make a big difference---ask Wal*Mart!

Yes, it doesn't make sense to release a new disc format that doesn't play current DVDs. That's like making a DVD player that doesn't play audio CDs.

I too will be waiting years for an upgrade. No funds for major purchases.

Ah, but Beta III speed was SO much clearer than even LP. I archived the whole first 4 seasons of TNG with 5 episodes to a tape at BIII, and it was beautiful playback for years (right up until my last Beta deck died).

Why was BETA such a better picture?
What was different about the technology?

I have had Sony products for many years now and find them largely to be well made and engineered devices. Being a long time videogame fan, I also plan to buy a PS3 despite the mounting rumors of the price being north of $600-ouch! If there is one flaw with Sony, I'd have to say it's the use of proprietary software and technologies. Sometimes this is a good thing and often times it's not. I loved the minidisc format-till I bought a video ipod!

It seems we are due for another Beta/VHS showdown and consumers will have a 50/50 chance of making the right choice. However, anyone planning on getting a PS3 will already have that choice made for them-like it or not. Lets just hope that not too many of us are left on the wrong side of the fence this time.

anyone planning on getting a PS3 will already have that choice made for them-like it or not. Lets just hope that not too many of us are left on the wrong side of the fence this time.Or you could adopt my brother's tactic -- in his home right now, he has an XBox 360, Playstation 2, GameCube, and even a Sega Saturn. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he got a PS3 and some sort of HD DVD device, although he seems to think Blu-Ray will prove to be the superior format and will emerge the winner. I have to admit that HD DVD seems to have only a couple of things going for it that I'd consider an edge, and one of those is purely perceptual. First, it looks like it will hit the market sooner, and second, the name "HD DVD" might give it an edge because many people who haven't heard of it will still presume (correctly) that it means "High Definition DVD." But most of the early adopters will likely be well-informed, so I'm not sure how much of a real edge that will afford the format. Other than those two things, I'm thinking Blu-Ray is just a better choice.

Qapla'

SSB

I'm one of the few people who is currently favoring HD DVD.

I remain extremely concerned about the physical size of the data pits on the Blu-Ray discs. And "extremely" concerned is an understatement. Disc aren't electronic devices that can take advantage of the technology of miniaturization. They are optical devices which are subject to realities of the physical world.

Dust isn't going to get any smaller. Fingerprints aren't going to get any smaller. Smudges, scratches and hair aren't going to get any smaller. All of these things will be capable of obliterating a great deal of data on a Blu-Ray disc.

And I'll also say that I think the PS3 factor is virtually irrelevant. I know a lot of guys with big HDTVs (myself included obviously, five others on my block alone including my next door neighbour) . None of us...none...are gamers. I don't know anybody with game console. These HD formats are for real videophiles. Nobody who owns a 50" plasma TV is going to let his choice of format be decided by a game console.

They will if they paid $600 for that game console. I agree with you to a point, but we (consumers) pay craploads of money for 'stuff'. If a gaming console will already incorporate Blue-Ray, then thats sort of killing two birds with one stone. I for one don't have bottomless bank account, and spending that much on a game console itself is an extravagance. You better believe these days most people are looking to get as much bang for the buck as they can. So if a 'game' console will also give me hi-def DVD, then that's good enough for me.

I remain extremely concerned about the physical size of the data pits on the Blu-Ray discs.Okay ... but we're talking about teeny-weeny-itsy-bitsy versus a little more teeny-weeny-itsy-bitsy.

If your concerns are justified, we'll all find out eventually. But as you say, if it is videophiles we are speaking of, they are also those more likely to take extreme care of their discs. That won't eliminate the environmental and handling factors you mention, but it should mitigate them to a degree. Heck, I'm no videophile (I'm currently watching everything on a 13-inch RCA TV and it's driving me INSANE!!!), but I take much better care of my DVDs than my CDs -- my DVDs are either in the player or in the case -- or in my hand going from one to another.
These HD formats are for real videophiles. Nobody who owns a 50" plasma TV is going to let his choice of format be decided by a game console.Well, the market will decide ... but I'm not sure that videophiles will do the deciding, at least not entirely, because they don't constitute the entire market. There are videophiles, and then there are people who buy videophile-level equipment because it's the latest thing, not because they are truly so discerning. On top of that, I truly don't think HD will be a videophile-only (more or less) format for all that long. Five years ago, who would have thought that there would be DVD players available today for less than $40?

Qapla'

SSB

I think everything is going towards a chip, which will make
DVDs and tapes obsolete.
Hypothetical question:

Why use a storage medium for archiving that can degrade, (We
just learned that DVDs corrode inside and therefore have a life-
expectancy shorter than video tape.), has a machine with many
moving parts, and is bulky?

Right now, music, movies, and television shows are capable of
being downloaded into an iPod. All stored on a chip. Small, and no
moving parts. How long will it be before we can buy pre-recorded
chips that have STAR TREK on them? We will plug these chips (like
video game cartridges) into some kind of reader, and watch the shows
on TV. Who will need Blu-Ray or HD DVDs then?

I think everything will be stored that way, until something better
comes along.

We'll be using those little squares Kirk and Spock used in the original
STAR TREK!

I think everything is going towards a chip, which will make
DVDs and tapes obsolete.
Hypothetical question:

Why use a storage medium for archiving that can degrade, (We
just learned that DVDs corrode inside and therefore have a life-
expectancy shorter than video tape.), has a machine with many
moving parts, and is bulky?

Right now, music, movies, and television shows are capable of
being downloaded into an iPod. All stored on a chip. Small, and no
moving parts. How long will it be before we can buy pre-recorded
chips that have STAR TREK on them? We will plug these chips (like
video game cartridges) into some kind of reader, and watch the shows
on TV. Who will need Blu-Ray or HD DVDs then?

I think everything will be stored that way, until something better
comes along.

We'll be using those little squares Kirk and Spock used in the original
STAR TREK!


Compression. Compression. Compression.

I wouldn't lament the mistakes made by the Beta people. Back when I worked on
F-14's (mid to late 80's) and we started installing the television camera systems, we also installed shock mounted recorders into the starboard avionics bay. Guess what? It was a Beta. They may have missed out on the mass consumer market, but I bet they made a pretty penny selling them to the military.

music, movies, and television shows are capable of
being downloaded into an iPod. All stored on a chip. Small, and no
moving parts.Actually, not quite. All iPods can store and play music, but the Shuffle and the Nano (the two which use flash memory and are, thus, not dependent on moving parts) cannot play video. That's not to say they cannot play video because they use solid-state memory; they just haven't been made capable of it -- and the Shuffle doesn't have a display of any kind, after all. The current video-capable iPods use hard drives.
I think everything will be stored that way, until something better comes along.Maybe -- my money would be on downloaded content rather than a physical chip. But it will be quite a while before any of us will be downloading 30-plus gigabytes to watch a movie, I suspect. Compression, as Zorro noted, is the enemy of video and audio quality -- the iPod's video quality makes me happy considering the TV shows I download to it are a few hundred megabytes and cost me $2 a pop -- they look fine on a conventional TV -- not DVD quality, but I can legally download an episode of Lost less than a day after it airs. If I waited for the DVD release (which I'll buy as well, when it becomes available), I'd have to wait until October or thereabouts. I wish FOX would make 24 available on iTunes ...

I would/will miss the nice packaging of DVDs if they (or some other succeeding physical product I can put on a shelf) ever disappear, though.

Qapla'

SSB

Also, hard drives and chips go bad all the time.
They have shorter lifespans than DVDs.
How many people here have had to replace a computer hard-drive, or memory chip because it went bad?
I know I have been through several of each in the past few years.

Maybe the old man was on to something.... My father waited for YEARS before he bought a VHS machine and we couldn't figure out why. Maybe he was stalling just to see which format would win, him being cheap and all. He wanted to get it right the first time.

Since the wife and I are not technophiles, we'll just watch you guys duke it out and let us know which format will win. :)

José

Maybe the old man was on to something.... My father waited for YEARS before he bought a VHS machine and we couldn't figure out why. Maybe he was stalling just to see which format would win, him being cheap and all. He wanted to get it right the first time.

Since the wife and I are not technophiles, we'll just watch you guys duke it out and let us know which format will win. :)

José

I Gotta agree with ya' all the way! We FINALLY bought a DVD player for Christmas 2001 Well I can't remember the brand but it Crapped out by April 02' So I bought another at the Grocery Store I worked at this is a Sanyo and I tell ya' for Twenty-Nine Bucks, I can actually watch all the Mystery Science Theater Shows I Downloaded off the net! Nice This is something the Other Sixty Dollar Player Could NOT do Nor could I look at Jpeg Images on the Old one! Ya' Know Something else I just noticed Recently (I could be wrong) But It seems that the 2005 Kong Movie was only released on DVD no VHS is that true? Wow,If So I guess I shouldn't be too surprised I mean Blockbuster's around here have already phased out ANY Video Cassettes for Rental.

John/Lonfan
BTW The wife asked me the other day, Is there ANY LP Record Albums being Pressed on Vinyl anymore? You know the kind that required a Stylus Needle to play? lol

BTW The wife asked me the other day, Is there ANY LP Record Albums being Pressed on Vinyl anymore? You know the kind that required a Stylus Needle to play? lol

Yep. Now it's considered "trendy".

John/Lonfan
BTW The wife asked me the other day, Is there ANY LP Record Albums being Pressed on Vinyl anymore? You know the kind that required a Stylus Needle to play? lol

Yes.
Iron Maiden has pressed vynil records for every release they put out.
Including Dance of Death in 2003.
Can't remember for sure if they did for Death on the Road last year, but I am pretty sure it was released on vynil also, even though it is just a live show.

Unfortunatly their label here in the states doesn't release them, and I have to order from the UK to get them.
Same for cassettes. Last one released here in the states was in 2000.
Now I have to get ones produced by EMI Taiwan or Malaysia from ebay.