is timing adjustable on brushless motors? just curious, thanks mike

Some ESCs allow you to adjust timing. The Novak and LRP do not allow that.

oh... thanks alot. i might get a brushless kit and wanted to know, also cann you adjust it with a hacker system?

Yes, the Hacker does allow you to change the timing.

I was reading that Novak had planned on making their system with adjustable timing but couldn't tell any difference when they changed the timing.

That's interesting... where'd you read that at?

The Mamba-25 has adjustable timing, if you buy the USB interface... Suposedly Mamba is going to have a high power controler out in the future that should work for 10th scale. I'm assuming it too would have adjustable timing.

I never did buy the USB interface nor did I play much with my Mamba-25 setup.

Given how much impact timing has on brushed motors, it's hard to imagine why it wouldn't have simmilar effects on brushless...

I read it somewhere on RC Tech in a post from Charlie from Novak.

some of the fast boys at the midwest brushless oval challange were turning there timing up on there 4300 motors.seen it with my own two eyes.

Waz up J, I heard rumors of turning the timing down & gearing up. Have ya heard anything about that at all? I bought a 4300 system & I thought everything was supposed to be equal with brushless then I heard about the timing bs... :rolleyes:

O'well more like MOD, better for me! :)

with the mamba, the usb set up is no differant, other than being easier. its got all the same options as it does when you do it with the radio and the speedo.

frank-hope everything is good with ya.i guess you are right they were turning them down now that i think of it cause they were running mad gearing that i couldnt even think of going to.but the times werent that much more.with out dynoing the motor how do you really no how much better and efficent it is.i am still sold on brushless though.i have really learned alot about my car since i have started running it.hope to race with you and your bro's soon.
jeremy

Yeah I ran BL at Josh's a couple weeks ago before I knew about the timing thing & was almost a lap quicker than cars running the timed motors, so It prolly dosen't do much. BL was alot of fun, it was nice not having to cut the motor after every round.

Hmm... this is the first I have heard about anyone tweaking the timing on a Novak... Perticularly if your speaking about the guys from Michigan. Now since I've not run this year, I haven't had much contact with the guys, but when I was there (at Josh's) a few weeks back(before the Novak race), no one even hinted that they had any way to adjust the timing of the Novaks which they all were running.

As far as I know, the only way you could tweak the timing on a current Novak brushless system, would be to get someone to modify the firmware for you. This is likely not a easy task unless you know someone from Novak who could/would help you. That is, there is no user software that I'm aware of that will allow you to adjust the timing on the Novak systems that are currently for sale over the counter.

The timing adjustment is in the motors (reedy/LRP and Novak) The sensor moves on a ring.

timing adjustment is in the motors (reedy/LRP and Novak) The sensor moves on a ring.

Yep, thats right. I raced at the last race at Josh's and didn't find out till after the race when one of his employees told me about the timing ring... I think people might be try'n to keep it on the hush. I've heard of people picking up a lap by fooling with the timing & gear.

The funny thing is that for me it doesn't make a lot more power but it does move the powerband around a bunch. Especially on the hot motors. Retarding the timing seems to give you more punch (when geared properly) and advancing seems to smooth the motor out and give a little more at the top.

On the oval it may be totally different though.

yes the guys from mich. no about the timing. they found out at the novak race. you can only change a small amount and i don't see alot of difference. they did try it both ways retard and advance don't know if one is better than the other.

Yeah I ran BL at Josh's a couple weeks ago before I knew about the timing thing & was almost a lap quicker than cars running the timed motors,

ummmm, i guess some things never change no matter what motor is being ran. :dude:

Retarding the timing is the way to go. At the bl race the fast guys were checked with some kind of meter. Im not sure what kind of meter it was but i was told that retarded motors had more power. the other trick is ceramic bearings. Less heat, longer power. 20 degrees cooler. In reality its still a battery war...

they used an inductance meter to check the motors. a 4300 is between 29 to33 on the meter. for more info go to novaks web site and they have all the info encluding the name of some meters you can get to check them. also the higher the number the worse the motor is.

timing doesnt matter,i have tried both ways no change

At the bl race the fast guys were checked with some kind of meter. Im not sure what kind of meter it was but i was told that retarded motors had more power. Thats the same thing I heard, and talked with a close freind that waz there that picked up a lap by doing it! In a good car I have to beleive there is an advantage to doing it.....I'll find out first hand this weekend in Iowa at the midwest champs & post the results.

Nothing like screwing up a good thing!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im totally against being allowed to adjust the timing in these things, but if people are going to benifit from it & it's legal I guess it's the only way to go.

Frank,
A few months ago in Cinncy everyone got waxed by a guy when we were running the 5800BL class. Thinking back on it I bet he knew, no one else did. He had a great car but he could walk everyone in a drag race too.
Tom

I see... you're talking about physicaly changing the posistion of the sensors, not changing the timing in the software/firmware. I assumed you meant chaning the timing in firmware, which is also possible yet would require more knowlege and/or the abilty to modify the firmware... but then as was said early in this discussion, there are other (besides LRP and Novak) systems that allow the user to control the timing in the firmware/software.

I think it's a loosing battle to try and control these matters. I for one never assumed brushless would end this kind of thing... I think it's best just to accept that virtualy nothing has changed with brushless, except for the lack of brushes.

Now, to me where the gains could be made would be in some kind of timing that could change based on the RPM and/or other real time information, such as load, etc... Eventualy these controlers will be fully capable of realtime changes of many operating paramters... It's surely a matter of time before the firmware becomes much more advanced then it currently is. At some level it will be very hard, bordering on impossible to check for all the various possiblitys that could change related to the firmware.

At first I thought that being able to change the timing is a bad thing. Now more that I think about it maybe it isn't. What's the big deal anyways? As long as everyone knows it can be changed and how to do it then there is no advantage for anyone... the power the motor puts out is still limited by the "winds" of the motor. Unlike brushed motors advanced timing does not mean more wear and tear on brushes and comms. But advanced timing could mean premature motor failure due to extra heat buildup.

The only disadvantage that I see is that in the Novak and LRP motors you have to take the motor apart rather then just easily reprogram the ESC.

The only disadvantage that I see is that in the Novak and LRP motors you have to take the motor apart rather then just easily reprogram the ESC.[/QUOTE]
no needto take the motor apart loosen 3 screws and turn the timing ring on the novak.

Thanks for the info.... haven't tried it so didn't know. But reprogramming would be nicer ;)

no needto take the motor apart loosen 3 screws and turn the timing ring on the novak.

What part exactly is the "timing ring"?

From my understanding If you run a higher timing on the 4300 it will shorten the life of it. any truth to that???

Jon

What part exactly is the "timing ring"?

The timing ring is the black ring against the can with notches in it, you losen up the three back screews and turn the ring to advance the timing..

From my understanding If you run a higher timing on the 4300 it will shorten the life of it. any truth to that???

Jon
Na ive raced every weekend since the bl race last week 3 days of racing. It still screams. another thing to do is replace the armature if you have got it super hot. Magnets fade, I heard of people zapping the arm. But that made them worse.

The timing ring is the black ring against the can with notches in it, you losen up the three back screews and turn the ring to advance the timing..

Although I knew about the timming ring ahead of this posting.

This is why I'm for running the current fastest brushless motor for a outlaw modified class. No need to tech or buy any performance parts...

The 4300 brushless motor $65.00
then upgrade performance kit $30.00

I don't know but the 4300 brushless class seems to be slowly morphing into a brush motor stock class. :freak:

We were at the Novak Race at Allen's and with "stock" timing we held TQ for two rounds and set the fastest lap of the weekend. There is A LOT more to be gained in finding the correct gearing/temperature and having a car that will roll.

mikeM-you got knocked off the pole by a car with the timing changed.

Frank,
A few months ago in Cinncy everyone got waxed by a guy when we were running the 5800BL class. Thinking back on it I bet he knew, no one else did. He had a great car but he could walk everyone in a drag race too.
Tom

If you're refering to my car at the 'birds warm-up race, the motor in my car was exactly like it was when it came out of the package.Never had it or the other BL motors I own apart or even oiled the bearings. Like Mike M said a couple of posts back it's all about roll speed in the corner. Even the best motor in a medicore car looks like a slug.

I don't even know which way to turn the timing ring to advance or retard the timing.

mikeM-you got knocked off the pole by a car with the timing changed.


Now, that's funny....

I guess I didn't make my point very clear, what I was getting at was just bumping the timing up isn't the total answer. I have seen guys at our local track bump up the timing and go slower.

mikeM-thats wasnt a knock on you at all.you did turn the fastest lap of the weekend and made the A main. i do agree that with the 4300 you have to have a free chassie.but in this case the timming was turned down and roll out went up.

No problem I didn't mean to sound rude with my reply. I just hear alot of people always complaining about motors etc. that they don't have the latest or the "Team" edition. This class seems to be very fair for everyone to me and I just didn't want someone reading this thread to think all they had to do is turn their timing up or down and I will be as fast as the top cars.

I agree mike, and that race was won by one of the smoothest drivers out there. The 4300 brushless class is the most fun a guy could have...

I race with the Michigan Militia a couple times a month. These guys are fast. Anyone that was at the Novak/Allens race knows what I mean.

If your chassis isn't right and you can't drive a consistant line, it won't matter what you've done to your 4300.

I was at that race, I agree. I thought it was the michigan mafia. The ulbrichs werent there. Hoping to see them this weekend. Are you coming ovaltrucker.

Militia, mofia... what's the differance... :)

mi·li·tia
n 1:An army composed of ordinary citizens rather than professional soldiers.
2: A military force that is not part of a regular army and is subject to call for service in an emergency.
3: The whole body of physically fit civilians eligible by law for military service.

Mafia
n 1: a crime syndicate in the United States; organized in families; believed to have important relations to the Sicilian Mafia [syn: Mafia, Maffia, Cosa Nostra] 2: a secret terrorist group in Sicily; originally opposed tyranny but evolved into a criminal organization in the middle of the 19th century [syn: Mafia, Maffia, Sicilian Mafia] 3: any tightly knit group of trusted associates [syn: maffia]

Dyno - I suppose you could take elements of each definition and secure a reasonable description! LOL!!

jenzo - I don't think I'm racing anywhere this weekend. I'm still trying to get my honey-do list completed!

OK!

The timing of the brushless motors is out! :cool:
Any ,more ideas on the brushless motors?? ;)

Is there any way that I could have messed the timing up on my Neo One motor without knowing it? I have taken it apart and sealed the extra holes on the drive end. I think I oiled the back bearing also. How do I check to see if it is in the "stock" timing position? I have 2 Velociti 6.5 motors also.

how is the run time on the ss?