Wow...they are definately back to form after the slight deviation the past two weeks. Controversial topics handled well...great story on Pegasus, wonderful twist in the final minutes with Baltar... :thumbsup:

The only thing I found disheartening was that once again, they've used deleted scenes to bring the audience up to speed. If they put these scenes back in ... the DVD ought to be awesome.

The story had several surprises for me.
Lee's relationship with Dee came faster than an FTL jump ... I would have liked to see a little more development here instead of just "Bam!... Now there lovers".

Dee sure did forget about Billy fast enough ... a little too fast for my taste. (Cylon maybe???)

I'm certainly glad that Commander Garner wasn't murdered ... he actually died with some honor and dignity. Must be a first for the Pegasus

When the battle was raging and Garner left for engineering ... Lee sure did look small standing behind that big table in CIC. But he bore the responsibility well and made the right calls.

I think this was the episode that saw both Lee and Kara make the turn away from the abyss. I hope they stay on course.

I certainly hope that Commander Adama increases security on his quarters.

The battle scenes were pretty spectacular. Especially with the air wing shown landing on the inverted decks of Pegasus' landing bays.

The new political battle now ensues with Baltar declaring his candidacy for the presidency. This will be interesting to watch for sure. It was a wonder that Roslin could still stand at all with the knife Baltar put in her back.

Did anyone notice that Baltar's speech about the taking away of freedoms and rights was remarkably similar to Picard's speech in the TNG episode "The Drumhead?"

Next week will bring a new perspective to say the least.

One comment on the "suddenness" - at the start of the episode, Lee says it's been a month since he was shot.

Did anyone notice the Thompson submachine gun in the display case in the "ready room"?

Did anyone notice the Thompson submachine gun in the display case in the "ready room"?

Yup. Wonder what alternate universe we're in :freak:

Yup. Wonder what alternate universe we're in :freak:
Thats exactly what I wuz thinkin when I saw it.

For the past four episodes I've bitten my tongue but BSG has, I'm sorry to say, jumped the tracks. Hopefully the situation is temporary, but beginning with the resolution of the Admiral Cain plotline the show has been foundering in a sea of clumsy exposition, stilted dialogue, wooden acting (John Heard was AWFUL), Soap Opera-esque melodrama, and awkward, 9th Inning Desperation Time editing. It's like the whole series has taken a stupid pill.

I haven't been able to follow the last few Podcasts, but I have a question for those who have: has Ron Moore alluded to any creative irregularities with the writers or production staff? The first 1 1/2 seasons of BSG were amazing, but something has clearly gone awry.

For the past four episodes I've bitten my tongue but BSG has, I'm sorry to say, jumped the tracks. Hopefully the situation is temporary, but beginning with the resolution of the Admiral Cain plotline the show has been foundering in a sea of clumsy exposition, stilted dialogue, wooden acting (John Heard was AWFUL), Soap Opera-esque melodrama, and awkward, 9the Inning Desperation Time editing.

I haven't been able to follow the last few Podcasts, but I have a question for those who have: has Ron Moore alluded to any creative irregularities with the writers or production staff? The first 1 1/2 seasons were amazing, but something has clearly gone amiss.

I agree here as well. The show is just 'off'.
Also, Whats up with Lee being a Major in the begining of the episode, and again promoted to Commander by the end.

The show actually doesn't have very good continuity.
In the black market episode, it seems as though everything is really tight and then during the hostage episode, everyone is aboard cloud nine and, one would never think the colonies were ever attacked. At least there is plenty of booze in the fleet for everyone.
I remember early on, Tigh, putting ration marks on his (last) bottle of booze.
Also, not to long ago, Tyrel was scraping togather booze from the still to trade for parts.

My interest is still strong although I tend to agree the last 4 episodes have left me a little disenchanted. The adventure is unique. I remain a weekly fan. I feel certain we will all be rewarded because it does seem tighter than most shows and the writers must be aware of what the future can hold. I think a 5 season run with the discovery of Earth would make for a great series. My hopes remain high.

MY hopes are high too. The Black Market ep is the only one I'd consider "off" and the only thing that's bugged me is that for 1 1/2 seasons the difference between series time and "real time" was remarkable: 1 1/2 seasons were only a few months since the Cylon attack. Now we're jumping time by leaps and bounds: "Black Market" implied (though is only speculation on my part) that several weeks had passed between that episode and the previous. "Scar" took place several weeks between it and "Black Market"... and now "Captain's Hand" is a month after "Sacrifice"? Why the rush in time all of the sudden (though it'sa understandable to explain why Lee's up and about)?

José

One comment on the "suddenness" - at the start of the episode, Lee says it's been a month since he was shot.

Yeah it was a month and alot could have happened. I don't know but I have broken up with girls and a month later still have it bugging me. Dee had a man who by all accounts was madly in love with her. She would have died if not for him. To roll out of Lee's bunk is one thing but to have them (writers)totally not have her say anything about Billy made her look like a class (you know what) to me.


I think Lee and Kara care alot for each other only neither of them can admit to it. I thought it was very touching when she was teary eyed and asked him "are we okay"


If you noticed the upcoming preview with Boomer. Did it look like she was wearing a jacket very similar to the original series Colonial Warrior brown suede jacket. I thought so.

Cheers,
Max Bryant

I couldn't help but compare John Heard's predictably desperate actions to save the ship to Kirk's actions on the Enterprise B (also, coincidentally, co-written by Moore). So, there was no surprise there with the outcome. The old "every engineer on the ship is an incompetent, indecisive oaf that's going to stand around and not take action because they're afraid so that the Captain has to run down and sacrifice himself to save the ship because he's the only man aboard brave enough to do it" scenario is becoming tiresome. The act of "dying to save the ship to atone for making a bad tactical decision and disobeying orders" is also a rather overused plot point. At least he didn't steal a shuttlecraft and drive it into the Cylon basestar.

I really hope the show does manage to get back on track. The redundant "sameness" of the last several episodes has left me sour.

^ Actually the parallel I saw was of Spock sacrificing himself to get the warp engines back online.

José

^ Good call. Very similar, indeed.

The escalating shouting match between Heard and Apollo was right out of CRIMSON TIDE -- and not in the loving homage kind of way. As with the beats noted in the previous posts, it was derivative, clichéd, and utterly at odds with the (formerly) high standards set by this series.

I'll agree the show has slipped a little bit as of late, hopefully it is only a small bump in the road.

"All of this has happened before ... and all of this will happen again."

Perhaps this has a deeper meaning than we all realize. Perhaps they're actually refering to the adaptation of situations, lines and scenes previously done in other movies and from history.

We've already established we have stuff taked right out of Paton, now we have stuff grom Crimson Tide and Generations ... with a slew of other references in between (like Apollo floating around in the midst of battle ... Adama's clapping scene etc.).

Great episode! I thought it was about time for some great battle special effects and they did them to the max.

I've seen an older episode on one of the HD net stations on local cable and the difference is very much an improvement over the analog version. The special effects, which are inherently confusing during battle sequences, are much more understandable with the higher definition. In analog, the show looks like it's filmed in a hazy atmosphere. HD wipes the air clean.

According to a letter to the editor on scifi.com, there is no HD offering of the scifi channel. I thought it would have been everywhere by now. :cry:

Oh, back to topic, one nit: why didn't the engineering crew simply open the hatch and refresh the supply of air in the space John Heard was in? They were monitoring it constantly and knew he was out of O2 and pressure. :confused: Perhaps it was a plot to kill him.

I wondered that myself. The hole seemed to be small so it seemed like opening the door was an option. Also, it seems like engineering would have some portable O2 around for just such an emergncy.

"All of this has happened before ... and all of this will happen again."

Perhaps this has a deeper meaning than we all realize. Perhaps they're actually refering to the adaptation of situations, lines and scenes previously done in other movies and from history.

I appreciate a good homage as much as the next guy (probably more so), but if the producers of BSG start using the Peter Pan line as an excuse to lapse into lazy, cliché-infested writing it will be at the cost of their audience (this audience member, anyway).

why didn't the engineering crew simply open the hatch and refresh the supply of air in the space John Heard was in? They were monitoring it constantly and knew he was out of O2 and pressure. :confused: Perhaps it was a plot to kill him.

Heard’s death was so forced and clumsy it makes we wonder if the producers had problems with him on the set and decided to kill him off at the last minute (I’m sure this wasn’t the case, but that’s what it feels like). For one thing, the motivation for sending him down to the engine room at the climax was laughably weak. The Engineering Crew didn’t “understand” his orders? Gimme a break. "Grab a sledgehammer and bang on the pipes until the little green lights flash.” What’s so frackin’ hard to understand? If you’re going to send your character to a noble, Spock-like death you’ve got to make it credible.

Some shows are fun to bash, but this isn’t one of them. I have too much respect for the writers, cast, and SFX guys, all of whom consistently blew me away during the first season and a half. I really hope BSG pulls out of the current tail-spin because, to paraphrase Kathryn Ross in BUTCH & SUNDANCE, I won’t be around to watch it die. I just don’t have the heart.

Having said all that, I am encouraged by the developments in the Baltar/ Roslyn relationship, and I think Lee’s promotion to Commander (while clumsily executed) places him in a dramatically interesting position. Anyway, I’m keeping my fingers crossed.

is that as much as Moore likes to claim "this isn't Star Trek" (and if you've heard his commentaries you know how he loves to say "this isn't Star Trek, We're free to do things Trek wouldn't dream of" ) He seems to be awfully fond of that hoariest of Trek cliches, "the crazy Captain"

Basically, everytime we see any Captain, Admiral, etc WHO ISN"T ONE OF OUR CHARACRTERS that person must be stupid, incompetent or just bugs**t crazy.

AAAARGHH

Heard’s death was so forced and clumsy it makes we wonder if the producers had problems with him on the set and decided to kill him off at the last minute (I’m sure this wasn’t the case, but that’s what it feels like). For one thing, the motivation for sending him down to the engine room at the climax was laughably weak. The Engineering Crew didn’t “understand” his orders? Gimme a break. "Grab a sledgehammer and bang on the pipes until the little green lights flash.” What’s so frackin’ hard to understand? If you’re going to send your character to a noble, Spock-like death you’ve got to make it credible.

Maybe I'm making excuses, but I interpreted the scene this way:

1) It was obvious he was out of his league the moment the Cylons opened fire

2) He knew he just got his crew into a situation he wasn't suited to resolve

3) He was more comfortable with machines, and what was happening in the engine room he knew he could understand and resolve

4) He did the only honorable thing he could think of and handed the reins of the ship to someone else.

Now, why was it that you couldn't have air masks in the engine room (of all places)... I don't know.

José

re: ^, I understand what happened I just don't like the way it happened. As Lou says, it was like something out of an old STAR TREK episode (and not one of the better ones).

Now, why was it that you couldn't have air masks in the engine room (of all places)... I don't know.

In a modern submarine, in addition to OBAs (Oxygen Breathing Apparatus the equivalent of which one of the Pegasus' engineering crew stated were all out) there are stations every few feet with oxygen feeds to enable crew to remain at stations or perform damage control. It looks like they'd have had an equivalent to that. :confused:

I was under the impression from what was said that there was a "hull breach somewhere in there". If this were so, then just having O2 masks wouldn't have helped. He'd have needed a pressure suit. Thankfully, the show didn't go into a detail effects shot of a bloated body in a non-pressurized compartment.

I don't think bodies bloat in a vacuum (brief exposures can be survived) but the point is well taken.

However, they would still need O2 sources for fighting fires and otherwise poisoned atmospheres. Just like a sub, if there's a hull breach, there's not a whole lot O2 can do except perhaps extend the working time before passing out from the pressure or lack thereof.

All I know is there was Gratuitous "DEE" in the Begining And I'm now even more Convinced She is Very HOT!!! lol


John/Lonfan

I think Heard was wasted.

Now, what do you think of this. They shouldn't have killed Fisk in Black Market. That whole episode seemed off to me. Keep Fisk in command and give him the hero's death. Yeah, it would have to be rewritten as his character wouldn't have been suckered in to the Cylon trap like Heard's but that would have been doable. I agree with Carson that the whole Heard situation seemed clumsy.

I still have faith in the show. I think Black Market was a low point (even RDM admitted as much) and they are improving...slowly. My biggest fear with this show was that it would run out of momentum and/or creativity. I don't think that's happening yet. Just a stumble. :)

Also, it seems like engineering would have some portable O2 around for just such an emergncy.

When he got down there, they said that they were all used up from fighting the fires.
So they did have them. They were just used up and no replacements were available at that moment.

...I haven't been able to follow the last few Podcasts, but I have a question for those who have: has Ron Moore alluded to any creative irregularities with the writers or production staff? The first 1 1/2 seasons of BSG were amazing, but something has clearly gone awry.

In the Podcasts for "BlackMarket" and "Scar" Ron Moore has complained about how the stories ended up. Later in "Sacrifices", Ron stated that all the problems that may come from the writers/producer and the other issues are the full responsibility of himself. I guess he's gotten some feedback about his voiced complaints of how the latest shows have turned out and he realizes that they need to improve the stories.

The Podcast for "The Captain's Hand" did not occur yet. So don't know what his thoughts are there.

I just listened to the BLACK MARKET p-cast this AM. Guess I hadn't been paying attention, but it caught me by surprise to learn that the first season of BSG only had 13 episodes whereas the second season has 22. Moore went out of his way not to make excuses, but it stands to reason that having to produce a greater number of episodes within the same amount of time is likely to have an impact on the overall quality of the series.

Nice excuse.
I wonder how series in the 60s, 70s and 80s had any hope of high quality when they routinely had 29 episdes per season, and each was 50 to 52 minutes long....

Bigger writing staffs? Wild inconsistencies? No character development? A much higher percentage of bad to awful episodes? Go back and watch TOS...I love it to death, but their average of great-to-mediocre (or bad) epidosdes is nowhere near as good as BSG's or DS9's. Character development was limited, and they had limited continuity in their stories (UESPA, anyone? Maybe Space Central?)

Bigger writing staffs? Wild inconsistencies? No character development? A much higher percentage of bad to awful episodes? Go back and watch TOS...I love it to death, but their average of great-to-mediocre (or bad) epidosdes is nowhere near as good as BSG's or DS9's. Character development was limited, and they had the no continuity (UESPA, anyone? Maybe Space Central?)

Great point!

I've always promoted the idea of a "movie-of-the-month" sort of series approach in order to have higher quality in a cost-effective production.

Given a weekly production for 22 episodes a year, they're leaving very few dogs for future syndication.

Just to be clear, Moore wasn't making excuses -- in fact, he went out of his way to point out that it's his job to make sure that things like the aforementioned scheduling crunch don't have a negative impact on the overall quality of the series.

Hopefully BSG is just going through a few growing pains.

I'm with Spe130. The number of episodes per season is smaller now as opposed to 20 years ago, but the coordination level that BSG is striving for is much, much higher. Is that an excuse? Maybe. But even if RDM is disavowing that as an excuse, I can understand it.

José

We are entering an age of television where repeats rule. Nowadays, a show or movie is shown over and over several times instead of just once or twice a season. It's cheaper and is not an excuse. There are fewer episodes and still there is poor writing. The making of sets, models, or anything else for an episode shouldn't be an excuse either as ST:TNG and DS9 showed that quality television can be done even at 20+ episodes per season with all of the sets, etc that had to be created along with using stock footage.

I believe BSG episodes that focus on things like the Black Market, elections, and humans taking hostages, etc. are just a waste and distract from the overall theme of the show. Really, I mean what was to gain by having Major Adama shot only to have him up and around almost like nothing happened in the next episode.? It added nothing to the overall plot.

Episodes like the explanation and destruction of the resurrection ship was really good as it showed how the cylons come back, retain knowledge of those killed off, and their ultimate weakness that could be exploited strategically.

I believe BSG episodes that focus on things like the Black Market, elections, and humans taking hostages, etc. are just a waste and distract from the overall theme of the show.

I guess this is where we differ. If one of the themes of the show is to ask whether human society is worth preserving, we need to see how we conduct our business in the every day. What we do in the daylight, and more importantly at night when no one's watching, goes a long ways towards answering that question. I would argue that it matters even more so than watching endless dogfights and the relentless fighting against the Cylons. That's mere survival and any creature knows that fight-or-flight instinct. It's simply part of the cycle of life. As humans, should we strive for more than mere existence and survival? Is there something inherent in us that should be preserved? Are we "owed" more than the fate that befalls other animals?

Now, that doesn't mean that "Black Market" was a great ep, because it wasn't. It was poorly executed. But I *think* I understand what the writers were trying to say through that episode and how it fits with that theme.

José

I certainly respect your opinion.

I will speak very broadly here since there are far too many examples to bring up. I think I must just be getting too old to enjoy today's television and, in some cases, movies. When I was growing up, SciFi and other genre's such as comic books portrayed heroes that the audience could look up to and strive to be like.

It seems today that everything in the entertainment media shows the worse of humankind. The news media talks about nothing but scandal, backstabbing, etc. in esscence, the worse of humanity. No one ever talks about the great achievements anymore or far too infrequently. I see no reason we have to have our sources of entertainment mimic the news. With notable exceptions to movies like Spiderman and the recent superhero movies who have a clear hero, most scifi and other shows seem to focuse on how situations seem to bring out the worse in people. It teaches our young to "look out for number one" instead of striving to do as much as we can for others.

If I had nothing better to produce than a remake of BG, at least I'd focus the show from an "epic" perspective with some focus on the three things most people want to see in a good SciFi show.

1) Scifi elements - such as hardware for us model makers. It's the spaceships, robots, etc. that entertain the kids and the kid in all of us. Let's face it....if a SciFi show is nothing but about politics, it will be much more boring.

2) Mystery and the Exploration of the unknown - the show should take the audience where it hasn't been before instead of re-packaging what if found in most soap operas and shows like West Wing

3.) Good character building - Let's see what makes the good guy so good. Separate what makes people good from those who are bad. Seeing Major Adama shoot someone in the chest in "Black Market" and not even have to answer for it is not realistic or even acceptable in a real society. If we blur the line of what separates good from bad, then you have chaos. This makes for a very frustrating viewing for me.

Ahh... well that's my 2 cents worth. I'll cut off here because I'm gonna post another thread about something else that the media is doing that is driving me nuts......Regards

When I was growing up, SciFi and other genre's such as comic books portrayed heroes that the audience could look up to and strive to be like.

It seems today that everything in the entertainment media shows the worse of humankind. The news media talks about nothing but scandal, backstabbing, etc. in esscence, the worse of humanity. No one ever talks about the great achievements anymore or far too infrequently. I see no reason we have to have our sources of entertainment mimic the news. With notable exceptions to movies like Spiderman and the recent superhero movies who have a clear hero, most scifi and other shows seem to focuse on how situations seem to bring out the worse in people. It teaches our young to "look out for number one" instead of striving to do as much as we can for others.

In general I agree with your points: there's too much focus on negativity and emphasis on that things that bring out the worst of our traits. TV and cable news have turned into a joke: a laser-beam like focus on scandal, depravity, name-calling and sensationalism that's removed from context and explanation. And I hate shows like Entertainment Tonight and Access Hollywood that glorify the life of "celebrities" who have nothing better to do than party. It mystifies me that actors and professional athletes make gobs of money as opposed to teachers. Rare are the types of programs that celebrate the quiet heroes or the people whose job is important to society but go unnoticed. So I don't think we have much of a disagreement here. :)

Having said that, to me a hero is someone who strives to be more than his/her circumstances or upbringing to do something extraordinarily good for society. And to see that on a movie or a show I, as a viewer need a context: this good person came out of these environs when others were tempted to go bad. Do I need to see every gory detail of the environment to get that impression? No. So to me good writing strikes a balance and shows some of the context without showing debauchery for its sake. Too many shows either don't know how to do that or don't even try. I think that's the reason you and I have a problem with current entertainment.

José