Vintage Topper collectors, check this out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Topper-no-redline-Custom-Charger-Lili-Ledy-Mexico_W0QQitemZ6990442911QQcategoryZ1172QQssPageN ameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This is facinating.

A Mexican made Topper Dodge Charger! Seems now that the "broken tooling" (or stolen tooling) story of the "Lost 4" was a sham (wishful conjecture).

The seller is also selling a Continental. RLOL has picture of a T-Bird also.


The molds were sold south of the border after the collapse of Topper.

This debunks whatever "the experts" have preached us.

I wonder how many more there are?


Time to pack up the bags and head south...

VERY cool!

I saw those auctions too.
Problem for me is that there really is no indication that they actually came from Mexico as stated by the seller!
The Sand Stormer looks to me to be no different than any other Sand Stormer other than the paint but since I don't have another Charger and Continental to compare............. I'll have to believe however that these cars are made from the original Topper molds. At least the two Detroits! Whatever the case this will certainly be an interesting story to watch.

We need Indiana Jones to investigate this.

Very interesting, isn't it........

That's facinating. So "the four" possibly "aren't"? It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

I was aware of the T-Bird and Continental castings as posted previosuly on RLOL - although I did not know they came from Mexico (with sealed doors, but with door-seams), but up and until yesterday I always dismissed these as possible fakes (home made). And the "Andin Box" Turbine that showed up a few years ago had everybody's attention too.
Until I saw the post on RLOL (PHONE CALL) and the inquiry into the sudden re-interest in these cars got me a little suspicious. When I can accross the Charger auction yesterday, it spelled it all out (the current owner of the "Lost 4" has a obvious vested interest).
These are infact quite real I believe (made from the genuine Topper tooling (modified with doors cast shut).
The "Costom Charger" miss-spell on that Charger base; how can anybody duplicate that?
And where there is one (mass produced), chances are there are many others too.
Where is the Camaro and Mustang?
What is odd of course, is why now? Where the heck have these been hiding?

The fit of the windshield on that thing is horrid. Were they all like that???

The fit of the windshield on that thing is horrid. Were they all like that???

"they all" :) That's really kind of funny if it turns out that there are tons of them.

The fit looks bad to me because of the slight twisting of the roof.

Where can I read up on this, never heard about, course, Im really still a newb when it comes to collecting :thumbsup: Thanks guys, this sounds really intersting :wave:

Yikes!!! All this time I'd been holding out for the Canadian verisions to surface. This CLEARLY has to lower the value of any Chargers known to exist. It only reasons that there are thousands of Mexican Chargers littering the closets and attics of our neighbors down south. I wonder how long till the next one surfaces? I also wonder how high the price on this one will go?

Yikes!!! All this time I'd been holding out for the Canadian verisions to surface. This CLEARLY has to lower the value of any Chargers known to exist. It only reasons that there are thousands of Mexican Chargers littering the closets and attics of our neighbors down south. I wonder how long till the next one surfaces? I also wonder how high the price on this one will go?



What are Candaian versions, how would they differ?

It only reasons that there are thousands of Mexican Chargers littering the closets and attics of our neighbors down south. I wonder how long till the next one surfaces? I also wonder how high the price on this one will go?

I can only hope that there are more. You would think that this factory produced hundreds of them. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I'm seriously considering taking out a want add in a couple of papers (in Mexico City).
-Peter

I wonder how quick now the "only" Chargers made will be put up for sale now.....

I wonder how quick now the "only" Chargers made will be put up for sale now.....

One is for sale on RLOL right now!

7 hours to go and so many unanswered questions,so many thoughts flying around...this is very interesting...I've actually been checking RLOL also(which is unusual for me) to see if any more info surfaces.

:) :confused: :)

Wow, that alot of Pesos. The final bid was for over 19 hundred dollars. There's one day left on the Mexican Lincoln. And I have a feeling it will be out of my range by then.

There is also a TBird on his auction Roster. I bid early on the Charger (120.00); Nice while it lasted, but was that short lived.

It will be interesting to see if word spreads about this selling price. It would be wild if several more surface.

I hope thousands surface. Maybe I can finally get one. The Topper Charger has been on my want list since I was 9 years old...
I'm even happier that this lastest discovery simply bombshells the whole "Great 8" Lost 4 claim. Amazing what people think they know as undisputed gospel...
Nobody was expecting a south of the border surprise like this.

can someone post a link to RLOL

RLOL:




http://p220.ezboard.com/fredlinesonlinemessageboardfrm11

Thanks Peter :wave:

Im trying to register over at RLOL but having a real battle with it. ezboard isnt even letting me update my info . yet im a member since 2001 whats the deal with ez board?????? grrrrrrrrrrrrr

This is all news to me. Hope it has a happy ending, when it all gets figured out.

Either way, This was one of the happiest days for me after I started collecting Toppers, When I got to Hold the "4" and all of the Chargers

http://moparmarc.com/jl/images/jktoppers/100_1714.jpg
http://moparmarc.com/jl/images/jktoppers/100_1709.jpg

What a cool piece!

One is for sale on RLOL right now!

Yes, if you like diecast grafting.
An Original Charger Topper body (damaged) with Mattel Charger base, and interior parts etc filed and fitted.
And for his asking price Bert, you'll need to book a flight on the next Space Shuttle 'cause its waaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy out there...
I'd rather wait for another Mexican Charger.

This is amazing in many ways. I hear crickets chirping over there! In a time when people should be fact finding. I also think it is amazing how people look at it so blindly asking questions like" I see it intertesting how one the "four" castings also has a COSTOM sic listed on the base of the prototype. Maybe they knew all along they were going to make Mexican versions." OR.......... maybe the prototype isn't a prototype after all! Wake up, perhaps they were made from Mexican toys? How people thirty years after the fact could have been given so much power in determining value and knowledge only to be placed in question so much the past couple years makes me wonder why anyone would spend 2k on that bid. If I have learned anything in the past two years collecting die-cast it's this. Anything is possible and there is always more than one version to a story.

Anyting is possible and there is always more than one version to a story.

So long as the "officially released version" is blessed by the "Great 8".... ;)

The others simply go along with the story and if you dare question anything you run the risk of being branded a troublemaker by their very partial and spineless moderator.



PHONE CALL: We'll hear from him "his story" after he speaks with God (Orenstein)...and what may get lost (or disgarded) through translation...or what serves him best - of course! ;)

You'll never hear the real story...

So long as the "officially released version" is blessed by the "Great 8".... ;)



PHONE CALL: We'll hear from him "his story" after he speaks with God (Orenstein)...and what may get lost (or disgarded) through translation...or what serves him best... ;)

Why the phone call now? Why wasn't this addressed before this came to light? Why is this group always covering tracks after the fact? If he had the ability to talk to Mr. O why do damage control now? Why is THIS story going to be addressed when there are potentially others even more important that might be talked about that are kept from us until other possible items are brought to light? The same people who make these claims and values are the same ones who fact find? I find this unsettling at best.

Lastly, perhaps Mr O himself may not know the whole truth. Just for a second, envision our own PM. Do you think it possible that Tom didn't know everything that was going on? Did Tom write everything? I know he was VERY hands on but how hands on was Mr O?

I'm not sure this is a good day for die-cast. Looks fishy to me.

My prediction. This conversation will not only shed positive light on these prototypes but it will in fact make them even more valuable as these rare Mexican versions will just highten and validate the value of the Topper versions.


There is no way that a Mexican versions could have been "retro" made to look like the original prototypes or pass as one. We can all thank our lucky stars that the truth was found and validated by such an unbiased group. Yes, we are all in good hands here.

OK, someone give me a little history, who is Mr. Orenstein? What is his connection with Toppers.

OK, someone give me a little history, who is Mr. Orenstein? What is his connection with Toppers.

Think Tom Lowe in a nutshell.

OK, I'm on track now, I have been following this sage on RLOL too, should be interesting.

What is the whole story on the alleged Prototypes anyway? It was my understanding John Knoll obtained them from Carter Pennington, who originally found them. What did Carter have to say about them? How did he come by them? Does anyone know?

What is the whole story on the alleged Prototypes anyway? It was my understanding John Knoll obtained them from Carter Pennington, who originally found them. What did Carter have to say about them? How did he come by them? Does anyone know?

Hello Bobby,
These cars have changed hands many times.
They were also to my knowledge owned by 99Octane (Greg G.) These were originally taken from Topper by an employee in 1970 (before the demise).
Carter Pennington told me (in late 1986 while he was in the process of putting together a guide which I offered to help with) that he was in the process of obtaining these 4 cars from who at the time I am not sure (Greg G.?) or the Topper employee himself.

Carter sold them to somebody in Southern California (where they stayed up until 2004) and from there these were sold to John Knoll.

It was always (preached) by the Great 8 that these cars were "it". None others existed. The original tooling was destroyed (as claimed by somebody) and only the prototypes exist.

Obviously The Great 8 were mistaken...

http://p220.ezboard.com/fredlinesonlinemessageboardfrm1.showMessage?topicI D=35185.topic

Bobby, check out this thread. Very interesting!

The Great 8 - It is interesting how nothing is law until they bless it. Kinda like the ruling baldies underground in Beneath The Planet of the Apes. Nothing was law in the underworld unless they blessed it, I think thre were eight there as well.

The Great 8 - It is interesting how nothing is law until they bless it. Kinda like the ruling baldies underground in Beneath The Planet of the Apes. Nothing was law in the underworld unless they blessed it, I think thre were eight there as well.

Nothing is as it seems final and last word in regard to Toppers. That is where this group will always fall flat. Seems that with every claim they make edict (etched in stone), time will tell a different story.
I'm loving every bit of this...

I found this on another ebay auction for a mexican topper.

LILI LEDY CIPSA - Johhny lightning collection. These beautiful cars were made and distributed by the legendary mexican toy company CIPSA (CIA. INDUSTRIAL DE NOVEDADES PLASTICAS Y METLICAS, S.A.) for their exclusive toy line for boys known as "Ledy". When the company introduced the first dolls under the name LILI, they mixed both names and launched the well known LILI LEDY toy line for boys and girls. When CIPSA stopped from making toys, the name LILI LEDY prevailed and another company then carried the the legendary name and made it a brand: "LILI LEDY". Despite the fact that CIPSA only lasted about three or four years, the company managed to own the license to make and distribute some of the most legendary toys at the time, which included the first release of the well known red line HOT WHEELS and JOHNNY LIGHTNING. Although the redlines kept their name even in spanish language, in the case of JOHNNY LIGHTING they were released under the name "Bolidos Ledy" trade mark, which you can see in every distinctive tin pin. Curiously, many times the name bolidos could cover both the hot wheels "red lines" and the also well known "toppers". There are some variants in those cars that make them highly collectible, for example the CIPSA redlines came with white interiors and a different tone of the redline, more sort of purple or wine. In the case of johhny lightning I think the metallic colors are a distinctive sign but we need to compare it side to side with some foreign cousins. Most of these cars came inside race tracks or sets with one or two cars and a distinctive tin pin as well. There was even an official bolidos helmet. Sellers and experts still use the LILI LEDY name (even me) to announce these toys even when they know such facts, simply because die cast collectors identify more the whole name of the company rather than the LEDY toy line, when in fact the LEDY- CIPSA line is not only older but very hard to find. CIPSA hot wheels without blister can easily reach up to 4,000US for a mint sample. Now, here is your chance to own one original car from the LEDY/CIPSA era made in mexico in 1971. When in fact CIPSA is the name of the company that made & distributed the topper bolidos and the hot wheels in the early seventies here in mexico. LEDY was only the registered trademark for the line of toys for boys (check out the tin pins or bottons, you will not find the full name LILI LEDY).

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-71-TOPPER-CUSTOM-TURBINE-LILI-LEDY-CIPSA-MEXICO_W0QQitemZ6991642334QQcategoryZ760QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://toys.search-desc.ebay.com/ledy_Diecast-Toy-Vehicles_W0QQcatrefZC12QQcoactionZcompareQQcoentry pageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfromZR10QQfsooZ2QQfsopZ3 QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQftsZ2QQga10244Z10425QQsacatZ222Q QsaprchiZQQsaprcloZQQsojsZ1

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-71-TOPPER-CUSTOM-TURBINE-LILI-LEDY-CIPSA-MEXICO_W0QQitemZ6991642334QQcategoryZ760QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This company stole everything... he has a picture of his race track box and it is a JL track for sure and has the JL kids with the red helmets, but it also has a blatant rip off of the HW logo on it also!!!

I find this simlpy amazing... Just getting into vintage stuff, its this stuff that amazes me completely.

I personally don't have a clue who the Great 8 would be, and it sounds like its not a group I care to associate with.

Is there a book, written by a true authority on the history of Toppers? Would Mac Ragan be such an authority? From what I have seen here, Peter would possibly qualify... He certainly has the knowledge, and ability, and seems to know the key players. Do you need to borrow my pen buddy?

anyhow thanks for the info, keep it coming... kk

What were the models in the Bolidos Ledy Lineup? From what I understand,some of the models were "Rebadged" Hot Wheels (Custom Camaro, Custom Mustang etc...). Which of those models were "Topper Based"? Any information would be helpful.Thanks.

turbine x-2000

What were the models in the Bolidos Ledy Lineup? From what I understand,some of the models were "Rebadged" Hot Wheels (Custom Camaro, Custom Mustang etc...). Which of those models were "Topper Based"? Any information would be helpful.Thanks.

turbine x-2000

Wow!!!!
Your 1st post and you manage to dig up a 3 yr. old thread!
Amazing!!!

Rebadged Hot Wheels? Where did you get that info?

These are genuine Topper baby! 100%!!! *(Pics borrowed from John Knoll!)*
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/Mr.Stubbs/jltoppermust.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/Mr.Stubbs/jltopperlink.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/Mr.Stubbs/jltoppercharg.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/Mr.Stubbs/jltoppercam.jpg

All of these were Topper models, not rebadged Hot Wheels! So far I have only seen the Charger and Lincoln come out of Mexico. I've also seen a Turbine, Sand Stormer, Thunderbird and Bug Bomb. I'm sure there are others.

If there really were cars being made in Mexico we would be seeing many more of them sold on ebay. I kinda doubt that 'castings went to mexico' rumor. If you want to talk to a Topper expert, give JohnnyLRay an email . He has always been nice about dishing out info, and I've found him to be the best old-school Johnny source for info.
Remember a few years ago the guy who bought a box of vintage topper parts? He sold off many as "kits" and many of us purchased them. I've never really seen any of them re-surface so those of us who bought the parts must be hanging on. There might be a few more of the "big 4" cars floating around, but still they are VERY rare. I need to dig through my Toppers that have been stored away for years...I start forgetting what all I have. Stinks not having a 'toy room' to display my Toppers anymore...

John has brought these castings to the last three AutoFests. Always a joy to see them and John "Sir Toppum Hat" at the show. The man has some serious Topper castings......SERIOUS! Can't wait to see what he brings for a larger format.:woohoo:

John has brought these castings to the last three AutoFests. Always a joy to see them and John "Sir Toppum Hat" at the show. The man has some serious Topper castings......SERIOUS! Can't wait to see what he brings for a larger format.:woohoo:

His collection is very impressive as is his hat. And a nice guy to boot!

LiLy Ledy Bolidos Mako Shark,notice the wheel size difference and the 2 small drilled pilot holes on the front and rear axles,it makes me believe that who ever supplied them with casting bodies did not supply them with wheels,they had to make there own and also had to drill 2 small holes on the front and back axles on base to assemble the axles,I have seen several different Ledy Bolidos Toppers over the years and they all have these same pilot holes and all have wider wheels.
link below.