:dude: once again brushless pan car class is growing, this weekend we had 5 mains of brushless pan car alone. Seems like ever time we race we are picking up
more and more racers, i have not seen this much interest in pan car in years.
the brushless systems have breathed new life into pan car racing. gone is the intimidation to the new people of the dynos and com lathes and cases of motor parts. brushless has made it so much cheaper and easier to race, for the veteran as well as the new people!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brushless is the single biggest reason I am back racing pancars!

i have heard that from a lot of people, it has put a lot more fun back in to the hobby and a lot less work, and a lot less money

We have been running the LRP Sphere with Reedy NEO motors here for since they came out. We are running in sportsman mod, with Nastruck bodies..


Its been great at this time there are 5 of use, but I have seen more and more interest in it...I hope it grows..we are running a Velodrome race on Dec 10 and we are going with Mod mode and seeing if we can kick it up a notch.

I have been racing for over 12 years and have seen too many people shy away from pan car racing becasue of the difficulty in tuning motors etc. We have seen closer racing and more time to work on setup. Costs have dropped dramatically to race compared to bruhsed systems. Besides tech inspection is a whole lot faster with these systems. My SS brushless system is 2 years old and still running strong. Right now we have 2 brushless classes. 4 cell pan car with 5800/ss speedo , and 6 cell mod sprint car with any Novak System/motor.


Right now we are going faster with 4 cell BL than we were with 6 cell stock. Our fast guys were running 68-69 laps in 6 cell stock and now we are running 69-70 laps almost 71. Our Sprinters were turning 66-67 laps and now up to 69.

MBEACH2k, where are you guys running?

In the pancars.4 cell. Is the 4300 Brushless close to a stock brushed motor or would it be any faster?

hi dyno, no lansing track yet, so we been moving to different tracks around the state toa different track each weekend, weekend before last was the soo, last weekend was mt. pleasant and this weekend we are going to kalamazoo on saturday,
next weekend not sure yet.

The 4300 brushless system is much faster than a stock brushed motor, it compares closest to a 19 turn motor at 0 degrees of timing, and now probably faster than that. Too fast for a beginner, but it sure makes for a very close and competitive class, with little maintenance.

Let me ask another ? Why then does Novak State the 4300 is equivilent to a stock 27 turn Motor? Need some input on this. Thanks

i don't believe the 4300 is supposed to be the equielvant to a 27 turn stock motor but is to be considered the stock motor of the brushless systems as is the 5800 is the 19t size motor but in the brushless motor systems

Novak's claim that the 4300 is equivalent to a stock motor is a very rare case of a company UNDER-hyping a product. It does compare fairly closely to a stock in terms of RPM, but the torque (and therefore power) is much higher, so you can hang a lot more gear on it. I'm not sure how the gearing compares in pan cars, but in a touring car (6-cells) I go UP about 5-6 teeth with the 4300 over a stock motor gear.

Novak's claim that the 4300 is equivalent to a stock motor is a very rare case of a company UNDER-hyping a product. It does compare fairly closely to a stock in terms of RPM, but the torque (and therefore power) is much higher, so you can hang a lot more gear on it. I'm not sure how the gearing compares in pan cars, but in a touring car (6-cells) I go UP about 5-6 teeth with the 4300 over a stock motor gear.

What about 4 cells and the 4300 motor?

What about 4 cells and the 4300 motor?

On our 132ft. carpet track the stock guys are rolling out at 1.80-1.90 and with the 4300 I'm rolling out at 2.30-2.40.

I have noticed with the higher voltage 3800 IB cells you need to back off on gear a liitle to prevent thermal shut down.

We looked at the 4300 for our new rules but didn't want to slow down. We had a few 4 cell stock last year and they were not impressive. We had a vote to go with the 5800. The track has too tight corners for those ( stock type) motors. Our 4 cell 5800 has proven that we can drop the cost of racing and go faster and have more side by side racing!!!!

hmmm I thought it was 4 cell 19t that you wren't impressed with...Oh well I guess....

the 4300 class is a little faster than stock but slower than 19 turn
also in 4 cell pan car the 5800 is only about a lap or two faster.
the best part about the 4300 class is there is alot less tire wear than 5800 class
and 4300 is abit easier on the batteries
no matter where i have been 4300 class seems to be the most popular and i like seeing a lot people allin the same class, in stead of thinning the driver pool over too many classes

Krisfo, I thought you were running 4 cell stock. If that was 4 cell 19 I apologize.

I agree that the 4300 class is really a better choice for most racers then the 5800 is... Primarly do to the lower tire wear. 5800 can be fun, but you have to be ready willing and able to be wearing out and replacing tires alot more frequently. Therefore, the 4300 really seems to be the ideal middle of the road class... faster then brushed stock, but not nearly as much work.... 4300s are probably just a tick slower then a 19T brushed, and again ALOT less work... 5800s surely must be very close in speed to the 19 turn, less motor maintaince, and probably very simmilar tire wear to 19T.

If I were to advise a local track on what brushless class to run... i'd say 4300, with no controler rules...

So how often are people still experiancing thermal shutdown due to the 4300 motor getting too warm? (as oposed to the controler getting too warm) I mean with the GTB...

well let see, never!!!!!!!!!
as a matter of fact the motor and speed control both run cooler with the gtb, i was actually surprised.

well let see, never!!!!!!!!!
as a matter of fact the motor and speed control both run cooler with the gtb, i was actually surprised.
Well that is the news i have been wanting to hear.Motors and speed contol run cooler. Is that Both Oval and offroad?

I've actually had more thermal shut down problems with the GTB than with the SS or SS+.I believe it's due to the lower resistance of the speedo and higher voltage of the new generation of batteries in combination with hanging a huge gear on it.More voltage to the motor=extra heat.I've had to adjust my rollout down .10-.20 at the three tracks I've run at with it.I also had to change from running pink/purple tires to white/gray/black tires.It's not because my car is ineffiecent either,at Vinton IA,I only dropped off .2 seconds a lap from start to finish in a 5 minute run.

i have only had the gtb run in 4 cell oval, so i'm not sure about it in offroad.
and as far as more overheating that is not possable unless your seriously over gearing.
higher voltage with the same load would be lower amperage and less overheating.
and as far as the gtb usage we have been able to go up in gearing because the thermal level is much higher for shutdown than it was with the ss.

oh ya and the speed control runs a lot cooler,even with out the fan

Ken,

Apology accepted....I guess we can assume that the technology we have now for these 4 cell classes wether it be 4 cell stock, 4 cell 19t, or 4 cell brushless has advanced way beyond the stuff we had back when we started racing years ago....remember those times Ken????

Krisfo

higher voltage with the same load would be lower amperage and less overheating.

That is false. With resistance remaining constant if voltage goes up so will amp, draw it's simple ohm's law. Amps=Voltage/Resistance.

http://www.the12volt.com/ohm/ohmslaw.asp

Here's a link to a chart that shows the relationship between voltage, resistance, amps and watts.

no the resistance dropped from ss to gtb, and yes do the math. ohms law with show that!!!!!!!!

If the resistance of the ESC has dropped, more voltage will be supplied to the motor. If more voltage is supplied to the motor the motor will draw higher amps.

Thanks Hank for stating that in a simpler way.

Also the thermal shut down temp for the ESC has indeed gone up but the thermal shut down temp for the motor has remained the same.

i'm sorry hank but that is not correct
watts divided by voltage will give you amperage
the novak 4300 is 175 watts and this would be the comparison at 4 and 5 volt
175 / 5 = 35
175 / 4 = 43.75

That IS correct. Try running a motor with 4 cells and the same motor with 6 cells. The motor running 6 cells will draw more amps and thus you will have less runtime. A motor supplied with more voltage will will create more power (watts). Try a dyno run of that 4300 on 5 volts and run it again on 7.2 volts... it will create more power (watts) at 7.2 volts and will draw more amps.

If a motor made the same power no matter what voltage was used then we could all go to using one cell packs ;)

I would agree, which one would go the farthest distance? the 4 cell or 6 cell?

i'm sorry hank but that is not correct
watts divided by voltage will give you amperage
the novak 4300 is 175 watts and this would be the comparison at 4 and 5 volt
175 / 5 = 35
175 / 4 = 43.75
It's correct, but irrelevant. The motor's power is NOT a constant carved in stone. For ANY type of motor, more volts = more amps. Hank's got it right.

I would agree, which one would go the farthest distance? the 4 cell or 6 cell?
Although this question may have been a joke, the answer is 6-cell (assuming you gear it for the same top speed) since the car starts with 50% more watts in the battery.

Now if a tree falls in the forest and there's no one to hear it...:lol:

Consider this however... With the power you get from a 6 cell setup you probably won't have to gear the 4300 motor so high... and well you probably can't put all that power down on the track all that effectively either....

So... in general... I bet the average 4 cell oval carpet racer sees more thermal(motor) shutdowns then does the averag 6 cell road course racer when both are using the 4300 motor... Now what would happen to a 6 cell TC carpet oval racer I don't know, I have a supiscion that they'd still see less thermal motor shutdowns then a 4 cell carpet oval racer would.

So... has anyone thought of any good ways to make the 4300 motor disapate heat better? and/or how many of you have actualy bipased or altered the connection to the thermal couple?

A motor heat sink should help a lot since the windings of a brushless motor are next to the can (unlike a brushed motor). I would bet no one is using a motor heat sink.

I tried a heat sink (6-cell TC outdoors w/ 5800), but a fan worked better. And the heat sink didn't fit very tight on the brushless.

The novak brushless motors I've seen (4300 and 5800) have that little purple aluminum ring that covers up the steel inner portion of the mootors... Maybe someone should create a replacment for that ring, make it fit tight on the steel, and have some cooling fins, etc... add some thermal transfer goo and a fan.... I really wonder just how much more speed/power one might be able to gain by improving the cooling of these things. It seems pretty obvious that thermal shutdowns continue to be a issue, even with and perhaps even more so with the GTB contoler (because of increased power going to the motor causing more heat, etc...). It also seems pretty obvious that any racer who can find a way to significantly reduce the heat build up in their motor, could then in turn gear up even further, and perhaps gain a advantage over those that do not deal with the motor temps...

A motor heat sink should help a lot since the windings of a brushless motor are next to the can (unlike a brushed motor). I would bet no one is using a motor heat sink.

I found the perfect heatsink for my car in Hong Kong with a fan connected to the heatsink....Life is good! :thumbsup:

I found the perfect heatsink for my car in Hong Kong with a fan connected to the heatsink....Life is good! :thumbsup:


Man you went all the way to China for a fanned heat sink, Pull was right, You are hardcore. Life must really be good!:eek:


By the way, I'm thinking about gettind a bl setup to play with too. Not necesarilly for the FOCAR thing but just to have.



It's starting:roll:

i'm sorry hank but that is not correct
watts divided by voltage will give you amperage
the novak 4300 is 175 watts and this would be the comparison at 4 and 5 volt
175 / 5 = 35
175 / 4 = 43.75

I agree...you are right! :thumbsup:

Watts = amps X volts

So, more volts will equal more watts!
As the formula will show above. :)

Man you went all the way to China for a fanned heat sink, Pull was right, You are hardcore. Life must really be good!:eek:


By the way, I'm thinking about gettind a bl setup to play with too. Not necesarilly for the FOCAR thing but just to have.



It's starting:roll:

All right another one seeing the light..... :p

Man you went all the way to China for a fanned heat sink, Pull was right, You are hardcore. Life must really be good!:eek:


By the way, I'm thinking about gettind a bl setup to play with too. Not necesarilly for the FOCAR thing but just to have.


It's starting:roll:

Awesome Dave...Glad to hear!

I have been for running a brushless class since the Daytona International Speedway Race in 2005.
Its been so SSSSSLOW trying to get FOCAR to run a brushless class
that I almost gave up!!!

Team Naples has been working on a new HUGE race track facility with Collier County to run brushless motors and more..
The new track will have power, concessions, restrooms, lights, grandstands.
Will be working with a few big companies to install a lighted scoreboard and more....

Will know more after the commissioners meeting on Wednessday Dec. 21st.

I will post pictures soon on FOCARS site. :thumbsup:

i'm sorry hank but that is not correct
watts divided by voltage will give you amperage
the novak 4300 is 175 watts and this would be the comparison at 4 and 5 volt
175 / 5 = 35
175 / 4 = 43.75

The watts stated are at a certain voltage. If you reduce the volts then the wattage will be reduced. The smae motor will NOT produce the same watts at both 4 and 5 volts... ain't possible unless you do something to change the motor.

BTW, the vast majority of brushless motors are rated as RPM per Volt. So if you have a 10K/volt motor it is easy to figure out the RPM. What Novak chooses to go against the industry standards is beyond me... maybe for the FUD factor?

Hank - I seem to be missing something here. The first 2 Novak motors are rated in RPM/Volt. It's only the 5.5 & 6.5 that don't specify a rating. And then there's Reedy, who refers to them using an approximate brushed motor equivalent number of turns, instead of RPM/volt or actual turns... :rolleyes:

But they have moved away from that type of rating. Why? So you can't compare them to other brushless motors?

But they have moved away from that type of rating. Why? So you can't compare them to other brushless motors?

That's right!!!

But you can hook the motor up to digital meter and compaire each motor by measuring the resistance in ohms. :)

That's right!!!

But you can hook the motor up to digital meter and compaire each motor by measuring the resistance in ohms. :)

Ohms is not a good comparison, You can have an armature (or stator for brushless) with (lets say) 10 turns of thinner wire that has the same resistance as another with 12 turns of thicker wire. Most RC motors have such low resistance that it is pretty much indistinguishable from ZERO with most common meters.

A better measure is inductance - that can be used to tell the number of turns on a brushed motor, so it might work as well on a brushless motor. You need an LCR meter to measure the inductance. I have one I borrowed from someone for a while, but I only own one brushless motor that I could measure so I cannot make a comparison with anything else.

Ohms and Henrys aside... I wonder if there would be ANY value to having a hand wound brushless motor... and/or if there is anything to be gained by having a special pattern to the wind, or having it wound really nicely as compared to wound really bad... My suspicsion is that there is not much to be gained, but also that it must make some differance, or at least that it could make a differance.

Just as in brushed motors I would guess there could be some eff. gains to a good hand winding as each segement would even winds and equal length of wire. I would also suspect that there would be a difference between wire sizes and counts too. I do believe that Novak offers brushless blanks for motor winders to use.

Reedy's website says their motors ARE hand-wound. And the middle part of their motors look like they came from the same factory as Novak's, so maybe they all are hand wound.