I've been going through a few articles that I had written over the years. I am doing this so I can post any useful information in our new RC Articles forums. I ran across and article that I had from 1997 that was an interview with Chuck Kimbrough.

It gave me a chuckle when I read it again... does it ring a bell?

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This is just a suggestion, after thirty years of my experience with slot and R/C model cars. I don't care what you hear from other manufactures or any one else that just doesn't understand, this is the way it really is.

Model car racing is NOT a spectator sport (it can't compete with full size cars live or on TV), it's a participation hobby. The only way it can be bigger and a more important is to have more participants.

Thousands of people buy competitive R/C racing cars kits every year, but only a few hundred stay with the hobby very long. The reason it doesn't grow is the high drop out rate. If you happen to run into an ex-R/C car racer, ask them why they quit. The answer I hear the most is, "the cars got too fast and it took too much time and money to be competitive".

TOO FAST! can't be you say. Think about it, do we really need to set new track records when we race? Is the idea and FUN of competitive racing to beat the clock? No! the real challenge is beating the other racers in our class.

Did you know many thousands more people play slow pitch soft ball then any other organized form of this stick and ball game?

Thousands more amateur and semi-pro racers drive full size cars like the Legend Cars, Formula Fords / Renault, Vintage and all the other speed regulated sports car categories, then are driving in Formula One, CART, Winston Cup, Bush GN or Outlaw Sprints.

Although they all would love to be a professional driving a Formula One car ect, most of these amateurs don't have the talent to do so, and would probably kill or injure themselves if they tried.

To keep more people in the R/C car hobby we need a class that is slanted toward close wheel to wheel racing at lower speeds and cost. The average hobbyist does not have the reflexes to be in full control at the speeds the present stock motors produce, especially in on-road and oval racing. When the average Joe or Jane gets on the track with one of these rocket motor they are only partially in control, and an accident just waiting to happen. We all know how much better people drive after the first minute or two of a heat, when the hot part of the battery charge wears off and their car slows down.

A stock motor class should be noticeably slower then the modified class, so people who don't have lightning fast reflexes and a lot of money, have a place to compete. As it is now, there's not much difference in car speed from stock to modified, and they are both expensive.

Why haven't the one design classes where the racers use the same chassis, tires, gears, and motor solved this problem? Because frankly, these lower priced cars don't handle as well as an open design car. In other words, high speed is the problem, and one design cars don't address this, they might even make it worse, because their harder to drive then an open design racing car.

The problem begins when a novice wins a few races and is bumped up to the stock class. All of a sudden they go from being competitive, to being lapped a few times by the front runners. Most of them soon get discouraged and in a short time the hobby is another participant poorer. That's a shame, because these people would really like to continue racing R/C cars, but because they don't have the money, time or talent to be somewhat competitive in the present stock motor class, they hang it up. It's no fun racing if you know there's hardly any chance of you finishing on the same lap as the winner.

To be really competitive, a racers needs a commutator truer (some experts true their motors comm. between every heat at big races). Even the nominal cost of having it trued by someone else can add up. Plus the fact it can only be trued a limited number of times. After it's trued, a Dyno is needed to tune the motor. This can really make R/C car racing an expensive hobby.

It's easy to see the weak part of R/C car electric motors is the commutator. The reason the motor slows down is that the comm. distorts or goes out of round from the heat of high amperage loads. This happens every time the motor accelerates from a dead stop or slow speed. These high amp. loads are magnified many times when the timing is advanced, the more the advance the higher the amp. loads. That's what burns up the comms. The proof is the limited number of fast runs you get with 36 degree stock motors.

What's needed is to reduce the timing, but not just by half, that isn't sufficient. If the motors had zero degree timing, the amp. load would be reduced enough that stock comms. would last 20 times longer then they do now.

The Hot Shoe stock racers will tell you, "zero degree motors will be slow and have to be geared really high to get any speed, so will still pull a lot of amps.". Trust me, you can't gear a zero degree motor anywhere near high enough to pull the amps a 24 degree motor pulls off the starting line now.

The Hot Shoe stock racers I am referring to, are the guys that are good enough drivers to control a hot modified car, but race in stock because it's easier for them to win. You notice I didn't say cheaper, because it isn't.

There are many cost advantages with a zero degree timed motor.



The bushings and brushes last longer in a slower RPM motor.
They can be used in a left OR right side drive oval or on-road car.
A slower motor with more torque uses a larger more efficient pinion gear.
Tire and general wear and tear on the car is less.
Zero degree motors don't suck near as much juice out of batteries, so expensive matched packs won't be needed.
A zero degree timed motor runs the same speed in ether direction of rotation, so the timing can be checked or teched easily (Something that can't be done with the present motors) by using an amp meter, or your ear by simply running the motor in both directions, and comparing the amps load or pitch of sound.

On a zero degree motor the timing can be one or two degrees off and it makes very little difference in speed, while on a 24 or 36 degree motor 2 degrees makes a big difference. So the motors will be more closely matched. Timed brushes are outlawed in stock, but even if a cheater used them, they wouldn't gain enough to notice. Naturally a comm-lock, and notched or pined end bell to can connection will be required.

What do we do with the existing motors? No problem, just create a super-stock class for the Hot Shoes. To make this hobby grow we need three motor classes.

How will these zero timed motors get built? If rules are made for this class by ROAR and NORRCA, manufactures will start making them just like they did the last time the stock motor rules were changed.

If zero degree stock class motor rules are made, a number of other specifications need to be nailed down with close tolerances, such as, thickness and number of armature lamentations, shape, and length of armature (no gaps or slots). Thickness of metal in the can, size and shape of holes in O.D. of can, and length of the bushings. Size and shape of brushes. Size and diameter of commutator. Or anything else that might effect their performance.

The reason for this, so stock class racers won't have to keep buying new motors every time a manufacture finds another loophole in the motor rules. The Mabuchi motor would not be the answer for this class because it's to easy to tinker with.

If you like the idea of slower more affordable racing with zero timed motors, tell ROAR, NORRCA, or their representatives about it. Most of the input they get is from the Hot Shoes and Expert racers. Low budget club racers need to make some noise about what they would like, or nothing is going to change, and the R/C Car Racing Hobby is not going to grow. As a matter of fact, the hobby has gotten smaller at about the same pace as the stock class motors have become faster.

Most club racers say "there is no reason to join ROAR or NORRCA because these organizations don't concern them". I understand where their coming from, because these organizations and their rules are set up mainly for the highly dedicated and factory sponsored racers who travel all over to race. They don't offer any programs in the way of slower classes for beginners or weekly club/commercial track racers.

When I first joined ROAR in the early nineteen seventies the rule book stated on the first page, "ROAR was established to promote radio control model car racing". I'm sure the founders meant this for all R/C car racing, not just regional and national championships. This statement disappeared from the rules many years ago, and most of the small time club racers have disappeared from ROAR, because it appears ROAR has no programs for them.

What club racers fail to recognize is the rules made by these governing bodies (ESPECIALLY MOTOR RULES) affect all of them. As far as I know the membership of these organization is mainly big time racers, who dictate what they want to the rule making committees. If club racers would join up and let the rule makers know how they feel, maybe rules would be made directed towards them. So instead of just belly aching about the high cost of racing to your buddies, join a rule making group. Remember the squeaky wheels get the grease.

TRACK and HOBBY STORE OWNERS, especially those of you who have tried to promote slower classes by other methods (like fewer batteries, specified gear ratios, etc.), join ROAR or NORRCA and encourage or require your racer customers to also. Then all of you make some noise about a more economical racing class. There's no doubt a new slower motor class would increase business and keep more racers in the R/C car hobby.

ROAR and NORRCA combined have nowhere near as many members or as much money to work with as the Academy of Model Aeronautics, because the AMA has classes and engine sizes for almost everyone, not just the hot shots. They even have a control line class called SLOW combat.

I have proposed ideas similar to these in the past with little or no results, but now that we have a lot of average racers on the internet, maybe we can mount a campaign so rules makers will respond to the little guys not just the Pro. racers.

Chuck Kimbrough

Seems Like Jay had a lot to do with a 5 deg motor being built along with ARCOR. What ever happened to that motor?

I understand that there was little interest in it so it just died from lack of sales.

It could be a good idea... as it seems most of the 'fast' racers run 19 turn now and also run stock. There really isn't a class under pro stock for the 'average' Joe to race in.

I guess what I take out of it is not the fact of the 5 deg. motor, but the exact same complaints we are hearing now (and this was 8 years ago). It is still the same thing, cost too much, cars too fast, takes too much time, etc. You would have thought that in 8 years someone (or some company) would have done something about it.

I like the Street Spec motors.21 turn 12 degree and stand up brushes.Yoy can run them all day and they just get faster each race.

It’s interesting that back in 1997 Chuck was saying we needed slower motors and a class for them. ARCOR developed the Spec class which is as close as they could get to what he was speaking of and it is very popular. 1997…..2005 that’s 8 YEARS ago. ROAR STILL doesn’t have such a class and doesn’t recognize the Spec Class.

Arcor did have the 19T 0 degree class which was popular for about a 3/4 of a year.

Here is my guess as to why that class died.

1) Guys were buying $50 handwound motors to compete in 19T 0 degree.
ROAR brought their 19T rules in alignment with ARCOR.
So now you have a 19T class with a pretty consistent set of rules. All these guys had 19T motors so why not just run them with timing instead of limited them to 0 deg and being 1 to 2 laps off the pace.

2) Another reason people started bailing on the 0 deg class was on bigger tracks if you did not have a can zapper you were off the pace. Guys were using a zapper to put timing into the can. Motors were going from 60 watts on the dyno to about 75+.

I still think for oval you need 5 classes period:

Spec stock - 1600 mah spec pack and Spec 21T motor, Spec tire
Stock
19T
Mod
1/12 19T

no where is there enough racers to split up into 5 classes, other than that, it's a fine idea

Hank, that post was right on. We all have ideas of what is needed, but have no way to make it happen or pull with the main organizations that do. As a 18-year veteran I have never been the best but always tried to give it my best (IN TIME AND MONEY). I now find it just getting too expensive to race, much less keep up with competitive equipment that changes very often. I am an R/C hobbyist.

Hobbyists do not need uncontrollable speed to have fun. Racing is relative. Close racing competition at any speed can be exciting. Hobbyists are not looking for sponsors. Hobbyists do not want the added pressure to have to win. They just want to be competitive and running with the pack and maybe a shot at the win. With all the free items and deals the remaining racers today get, it is very difficult to keep up. I am not calling for the end of the deals ( it is one of the only ways small manufactures can get noticed). Most racers on them have worked hard for them and what they get.

But when some racers ask for a class for the hobbyist to race in, they are ridiculed and made to feel they are the reason there are so many classes and not enough racers for large class counts at big events. I believe that the hobbyist was what got it all started. The hobbyist paid the way for the hobby to grow. But as the racing got more technical, competitive between manufactures and faster, the hobbyist was left out. The hobbyist can no longer afford to pay the full tick price to race against a field that has 60 percent or more sponsored drivers on a deal. Where does the hobbyist go? Well he probably quit going to the big events first and started running at his local track more. But as the trickle down effect made it to the local level the hobbyist found the same thing happening there. Now the track owner in an effort to keep his racers, makes track only classes that are not run elsewhere. There have been so many different classes made locally that no large group exist to support large class counts as in the past.

In closing I would like to say.
RCThunder (Mike) you have had the most impact on the hobby in the years I have been in it. It would take someone like you to create a new class for the hobbyist that would attract the racers to the Snowbirds and get the locals on the same page with rules. Having ROAR in charge of making the rules is like having the U.S. auto makers making rules for Nascar. We all know what made Nascar. One man," Big Bill France" took care of the competitors first and show took care of itself. Also I would like to say that Arcor has taken the task of trying to keep the hobbyist going.

Thanks to Mike and JB for taking care of a hard job.

You would have thought that in 8 years someone (or some company) would have done something about it.

Hank,
The problem is NOT the companys or any ONE person. The problem lies in the racers themselfs.
If Guy's would just get the hell away from stock when they gain experience and leave it for the beginner, all would be fine.

I've said it a thousand times...
STOCK..........Beginner (entry level).
19 turn.........Advanced (experienced).
Modified........Expert.

Simple as that, no added classes, no new rules, just leave a place for a guy to start and be able to compete.

Later, Bret

no where is there enough racers to split up into 5 classes, other than that, it's a fine idea

Granted we are one of the lucky tracks around but we run all 4 classes weekly at Classic. Minus 1/12 scale.

I was more referreing to National events.

I think for club shows Spec, Stock and 19T is ample.
Or Spec, Stock and Mod.

Stock is not a beginers class.. you need a real beginers class.. I run stock because that is what i can afford.. Our crpet track is very hard on tires.. i can not aford a new set of tires every week..In 19 turn or mod thats what happens.. stock you get 2-3 weks on them depending on practice..

19 turn and mod are more expensive period.. we cant dumb down the current classes.. the above first post says wee need a seperate class for beginers, and i belive that.. ROAR keeps trying to slow or dumb down the current classes, when all they need to do is create a class for beginers.. they have alot more pull in this industry then ARCOR does..

With the rebuildable stock motors, it would be easy to come up with a 35-40 turn arm that an entry level racer could but and install in a can. Slug in a set of long wear/low performance brushes, spec cells and there you go.
If you don't offer that class at the National level, (keep it local for beginners) you won't get the more experienced guys running in in place of 27 stock.
keep it as a bare bones beginner class. Once you've turned a certain amount of laps, you must move up to 27 turn...
Just a thought...:thumbsup:

I'd agree with Todd, except on the brush part.. let them use the normal brushes to help get used to what they like, the maintenance involved, etc. Would make the transition into regualr 27 turn an easier thing to deal with.

Whenever you have something that is a competition it will always be expensive and when it is racing it will always get faster. That is just the way it is. There was a big controversy awhile back because people were cheating at the Legends class by zapping timing into their cans. The legends class for god's sakes! No matter what you do or what class you make it will always devolve into the same thing, so instead of focusing on some new "savior" class we should focus on making racing better and more fun with the classes we have now. That along with a little promotion could actually help us.

...years ago, I proposed a "Rebuildable Stock Motor" and was laughed at by rules makers.

Several years later I was lucky enough to be in a position to take a shot at making that proposal again...I was lucky enough to be working behind the scenes at NORRCA. JB was still there too, and so much is owed to HER for making Rebuildable STOCK motors a reality...most people don't have a clue.

NORRCA faced a problem however, in the past NORRCA had 2 STOCK classes, with 2 seperate motor rules. 24 degree STOCK for the Sportsman/ and 36 degree STOCK for the so-called "EXPERTS"

None of the MFG's were willing to make both a 24 d and a 36 d motor since NORRCA was the only Org. using the 36's. Not long after the rebuildable stocks came out, there was a lot of buzz back in the Florida area about MIKE B and 19t motors...similar to the old RCRA series. We started working on a set of rules at that time that would have taken a 19t SPEC arm and put it in a BUSHING/ REBUILDABLE Stock car and have a good Mid-Level motor, still quite abit slower than Modified.

Sadly, TRINITY came out with a CHAMELEON motor about that time...it was backward wound, bearing instead of bushing, etc. Good idea..just NOT the original idea. JB's "ARCOR" 19t came out of Racer frustration due to too many of the Chameleons being JUNK~

...as far as ANYONE...or at least ANYONE that I know...racing STOCK because that is the EASY class to WIN... GUESS AGAIN~

STOCK is by FAR one of The toughest classes. You are so limited with your power...cars run SOOOO much closer speed...that it IS a driver's class...NOT a HORSEPOWER class.

Out here...we run STOCK, 19t, "SPORTSMAN MOD", and Expert Mod

The SPORTSMAN MOD class, is mainly a group of guys who CAN'T Drive that well...Drive WAY over their heads...have WAY too much power, but have a Lot Of Fun....for a lot less money than it takes just to keep STOCK motors BRUSHED per year.

All in all, there is NOTHING like OVAL RACING...so do all you can...to KEEP IT ALIVE~

Great thread, This is why I read Hobby Talk

Keep it coming and THANKS
Wade

Sportsman (BRUSHLESS) MOD.,I like that. That is baisically what we run.What people need is a track like ours.We dont care what place we get,all that matters is we are having fun with our racing buddies,helping the new guy,and most of all Relaxing and NOT WORKING. We all need to keep it in perspective,WE are having FUN,when it is no longer fun people QUIT!. My favorite thing in the world to do, is to help a newbie to R.C. run better. Weather it is to build them a good motor or work on their setup. They dont need a SLOW motor they need the help of other racers who care enough to help them and coach them,leting them know where they are messing up and how to correct the problem with constructive criticism,NOT trash talk. Shure we can do that some times just not too much because it will drive some people away. That is how I see it.

Todd, that would work, especially the “not giving it National Status” part. That one thing alone is what ruins a “beginners” or “hobby” class. Once it is given that status, you remove any incentive for a racer to move up so they stay there and turn a good idea into another “racing class” that eventually fills with experienced racers. That catch 22 thing again.

And before the question is asked….Why shouldn’t hobby or beginners be given a chance to race at a National event…NO. When you get that serious….move up like the rest of us and go racing. We will never have any growth to what we do until we have a place for the Hobby Racer and that place is not at a National Event but at a HOBBY SHOP.

Chuck Kimbrough hit the nail on the head back when he wrote that. It's a shame he can't come on today and partake in some of these conversations. He's a very wise man, indeed.

Yes, the 5degree motor did come about. With Jay Kimbrough, Phil Hurd (then Pres. of ROAR) and myself representing NORRCA, we worked together to setting up specs on the motor, rules etc. At that time Reedy made the first 25 test motors and he along with Orion, and a couple of others also committed to make the motor. When all was said and done, the manufacture that said "NO WAY" would they make that motor, was ironically, the only one who did step up to the plate and make it. That was Trinity. What happened to it? Well, about the same time we finally got the motor, the "Professional" Modified racers had just returned from the ROAR Carpet Nats in 1998 and they were all complaining..THE CARS ARE TO FAST!! It wasn't the stock racers complaining..it was the Mod racers. This led to NORRCA taking a member vote and going to 4 cells, ROAR followed shortly after.

Going to four cells, did in fact slow the cars down, which in turn also pushed the 5D motor into oblivion.

If I were going to invent another class or type of motor, it would be a mod can, with adjustable timing. The arm would be a stock 27 arm. With this combination, a racer could run timing from "0" degrees to 36 degrees. Imagine, one motor covering at least 4 techable timed speeds. From slow to fast and faster. With a motor like that we wouldn't need the Spec motor, but in the 4C Spec class we could run it at "0" degrees and move up to Stock without buying more motors. Also, like the ARCOR 19T, racers in some cases would only need to buy a 19T arm to run in that class. That would make life to simple...

BEGINNERS CLASS....

A beginners class...there is none and there never will be. Yes, we will have new racers come into the Hobby, and the best place for them to start is in the 4C Spec class. But if this "new person" has any desire he will be driving good enough in just a few weeks. What I'm trying to say is how long would we "cater" to the beginner? I have seen beginners run just a couple of battery packs and run right up there with the big dogs on a weekly level. What we can have and what ARCOR does try to promote is a cost controlled class. Because believe it or not and it's no sin, there are people out there that do live on a budget, don't work for GM and love the hobby as much as the racers that has been in this hobby for several years and earned a sponsorship.

"Beginners don't belong at National events"..McLin just adds to my high blood pressure when I read this crap. In the first place the "beginner" or new person for most part wouldn't go to a National event because they would know they are just beginners and aren't ready for traveling. They would know if they are getting their heads handed to them on the local level, they would get their A**'s handed to them on a National level. DUH! Doen't take a mental midget to figure this out. On the other hand just who do we think we are, being so high and mighty thinking that the cost controlled racer isn't entitled to go to a National Event, especially if there is a class for him to run? Just because these racers are racing a class with-in their budget, or with-in their driving ability, or the chassis expretise isn't like the PROS, is no reason to say they can't go to a National Event and have the fun that goes with it. Is a National event only reserved for the StocK, 19t and Modified racers? Is it only for the Sponsored and Factory racers?

Oh.. I know ..They are budget racers and can't afford to go to National Race. That's another thing that burns my bottom, telling someone what they can and can't afford. Just because someone is racing in a cost controlled class doesn't mean they are on Food Stamps, it might also mean they are smart enough not to spend their life savings or over charged their credit cards to have a hobby. From what I have seen over my 35+ years of racing is that many of you can't afford the hobby, but you still do it. So for this reason it's not up to anyone else to tell someone what they can or can't afford.

Just look at the entires that go to the Snowbirds..These racers that are in the E, F, G and H Main, knew where they would finish, they new they didn't stand a rats pazoodie of making the A-Main. Why did they go then? They went for the FUN...what a novel idea..going to a National Event and having fun.

As far as ARCOR is concerned, there will always be a place for the cost controlled, budget minded person at all ARCOR National and State events. If they can make the race they will have 4C Spec class to race in.

And before the question is asked….Why shouldn’t hobby or beginners be given a chance to race at a National event…NO. When you get that serious….move up like the rest of us and go racing. We will never have any growth to what we do until we have a place for the Hobby Racer and that place is not at a National Event but at a HOBBY SHOP.

Maybe some of you need to do some soul searching on that statement. Maybe this is what's worng with our HOBBY..it's too SERIOUS. Maybe the majority have forgot why they got in this hobby to begin with. Maybe that TQ or Track record has gone to your head. When R/C racing starts paying your morgage payment, your light bill and putting food on the table you could say it's time to be serious. Until then, all your racing for is a piece of wood with a peice of metal on it. Oh, you might swing a sponsorship if your good and you may well deserve it, but when your light bill comes due, ask them if they will take your plaque as payment?

And before the question is asked….Why shouldn’t hobby or beginners be given a chance to race at a National event…NO. When you get that serious….move up like the rest of us and go racing. We will never have any growth to what we do until we have a place for the Hobby Racer and that place is not at a National Event but at a HOBBY SHOP.

Now, thats a good one..because least you all forget this is a HOBBY!!!!! Being an R/C Car racer is only an occupation for a very select few, and for the most part, that isn't all they do for the Manufactures that race for. Which would mean that 99% of those racing R/C's today wouldn't be eligible to attend a National Event and need to stay where they belong...at the Hobby Shop.

Is it possible to zap the magnetic arm of a brushless motor, in a way that would somehow introduce more timing? I assume not... at least not in a way that would work...

Anyway... brushless seems to eliminate much of this expense problem with regard to comms and brushes...

While to some degree, I agree that slowing cars down is good for those of us who have slow reflexes... I'm not convinced that the racers I know (even those of us who are not super fast) would like to go much slower then a current stock motor can go with 4 cells...

In the end... I think foam tires are the most expensive part of going fast these days... Maybe slowing the cars down by a huge amout would eliminate this to some degree... but again, I don't know to many regular racers that want to go any slower then they currently go with a stock motor and four cells.

How do the ultra fast guys go so fast? It's not just motors I can tell you that... and they do indeed spend alot of mone from what I can see.

Ehhh I dont know about spending a LOT of money...

Many of the really fast guys Ive seen run dont spend a lot of money..They just have really good setups. Ive never personally been in a stituation where I was off the pace where spending a lot of money got me back on the pace.. Usually I get chassis help and all is better.. At my local track my fastest run ever was done on a pack of IB3800's with 1.175 voltage, and a tired 19T motor.. LOL... seems like as I got better stuff I went slower..lol..

Three classes:
4-cell (1600mah) Spec 21T (no sponsorships)
4-cell Stock
4-cell 19T

Forget about Mod. you'd be hard pressed to field a class of 5 at any national event other than the Snowbirds. It could be an exhibition class.

McLin, one other correction. ARCOR recognized SPEC racing and worked to promote it on a broader scale. ARCOR didn't invent SPEC racing, it copied and then tweaked rules and classes that had already been in existance for years.

Hank,
The problem is NOT the companys or any ONE person. The problem lies in the racers themselfs.
If Guy's would just get the hell away from stock when they gain experience and leave it for the beginner, all would be fine.

I've said it a thousand times...
STOCK..........Beginner (entry level).
19 turn.........Advanced (experienced).
Modified........Expert.

Simple as that, no added classes, no new rules, just leave a place for a guy to start and be able to compete.

Later, Bret

Well said Bret, I consider myself somewhat of a newbie and its very discourging to show up and know that you don't stand a chance in hell of being in the top 3 stock mains because they are dominated by guys that have been in the same class for 10-15 years!! And to make matters worse most of them are sponsored. Its impossible for the new guy to be competitive. Seems like every week a new track record is being set. How is the newbie supposed to improve? But more importantly why would a newbie stick with it?? Seems like this topic is discussed quite often but most of the guys that agree that the stock class should be for beginners are still racing in the stock class! :confused:

Craig: You are 100% correct about the 4C Spec class. One of the original purposes of starting this class was "cost controlled", no sponsors and to have a class that is Nationaly recognized to replace the multi ruled, different equipment, TRACK CLASSES.

Unfortualy, most tracks don't comprehend the reasoning of a National recognized track class, instead they form their own version, which for the most part requires anyone visiting from another track to purchase additional tires/motors etc. to run in it. Instead they run a "track class" that suits their racers. To a point this is valid, but when there is a class like Busch, that was formed under the pretense that the racers could buy used equipment from the Stock racers, this therory is shot to oblivion. After these guys get into this slower version of Stock, they like everyone else, want to win and soon find that the used stuff they bought won't cut the mustard and they are then buying new. What we wind up with is these racers, spending as much as a Stock racer would. Speeds are slower, but not cost.

Some say Spec isn't cheap, but not so. With the Spec motors and Spec batteries, racers can afford to keep newer batteries/motors. For the most part these racers can buy 3 Spec packs for the cost of one 3800 pack. Which translates to these racers can buy fresh batteries 3-4 times a year and not spend thier life savings doing it. Also these same racers aren't in fear of their batteries becoming obsolete in a coule of years. Since 1995 the Spec batteries have only been changed once.

In the last 10 years we have seen the other battereis go from 1700's to the now 3800's. Now that the new 3800's are out, most of these tracks that run a Busch type class are now allowing them, so where does that leave the budget racer in this class as far as competition? He either upgrades his 3300's to 3800's or bites the big one and resigns himself to being under powered with batteries. For the most part, it's more perception, but this is what makes racers quit more than anything..perception.

On a National level, when a track hosts say, a ROAR Nationals. They are allowed to run an optional class. The reason to hold a Nationals is to get racers from all over to attend, be it Stock, 19T, Mod and yes the "track class. It's called ENTIRES. Tracks don't hold these National events for notority, they hold it to make money, hosting a large event with as many entires as possible. The Stock, 19T and Mod classes are "national" and racers know they don't need a change in equipment to come, but no so with the optional class. The track hosting the event opts for his track class, because of "his" racers. This class is usually only entires from that track, because in order for the racer that might want to attend this race, he would have to buy something different to run in it. For the most part what he will have to buy won't fit into his track class when he goes home. So he stays home, because he sure isn't going to a race like that and run Stock. Unfortunaly, most tracks cant see this and continue to run their own version of a track classes.

A perfect example was the ARCOR state race at SCH, in Pittsburgh. The Busch class was offered, because it is a popular track class in the North. We stated any Spec foam tire, BECAUSE I got numerous e-mails wanting to know if they could run TRC's or BSR's? Some of these racers only run TRC Spec tires, some only ran BSR Spec tires and some ran any Spec tire. Some still only run 3300's by their track rules and some are allowed to run 3800's by their track rules. Naturally the racers that only ran 3300's didn't come because we said any battery 3800 or less. We had 5 entries for this class.

Had they ran a class like the 4C Spec as a track class, they wouldn't have had to change anything, just pack up their stuff and come race. They wouldn't have had to even send an e-mail wanting to know what equipment they needed. We had 10 entires in this class. Guess this is to simple for most tracks to comprehend???

I happen not to agree that any driver should be forced out of stock. In some cases, doesn't matter if someone has raced 20 years and spends 10 grand a year, they just don't have the skill level to run anything faster.

In my case, this old guys reflexs are just not what they used to be. Just because I'm not as good as I used to be or that I feel like spending a lot of $$$ even though I am an "old guy" or just even have sponsors because I am a good ambassador for the manufacturer does that mean I can't run stock?

Sorry folks, I won't/can't run a mod class. I no longer have the skills for it but am good enough to do well in stock.

Well said Bret, I consider myself somewhat of a newbie and its very discourging to show up and know that you don't stand a chance in hell of being in the top 3 stock mains because they are dominated by guys that have been in the same class for 10-15 years!! And to make matters worse most of them are sponsored. Its impossible for the new guy to be competitive. Seems like every week a new track record is being set. How is the newbie supposed to improve? But more importantly why would a newbie stick with it?? Seems like this topic is discussed quite often but most of the guys that agree that the stock class should be for beginners are still racing in the stock class! :confused:

Razoo: Hank is right on much of what he said, even though many of these racers are top dogs in Stock, they couldn't cut it in Mod or for that matter 19T. Also like Hank I too agree, that no one should be made to move out of a class. I think you would lose more dedicated racers than you would gain "from beginners or just "Joe Racer".

Another point that you brought up is the Sponsored racer. These will NEVER disappear and to think they will is only a pipe dream. Many,if not most of these racers are sponsored by aftermarket motor builders or by any one of the numerous battery matcher's. In order for these sponsorships to disappear, we would also have to not allow motor builders or battery matchers to compete in the market place with the Major Manufactures. This won't happen for two reasons, these numerous motor builders and matchers buy their product from the Major entidies..also simply put..what wins on Sunday, sells on Monday. Stock racing hasn't been a beginners class for 20+ years and never will be. Fact of Life.

The problem IS NOT guys running stock who YOU THINK should be running mod.. The PROBLEM is this NEW PC GENERATION.. People today are lazy.. They think that there should be a class they can win with little to no effort.. Todays society says treat everyone equal...everyone is a winner.. Give this guy a trophy or make a class or classification where he can be the winner.. I figure if everything continues the way it is 10 years from now there will be a class for EVERY racer.. That way everyone can win their own race.. You get a big trophy reguardless of what you run..

Back in the late 80's early 1990's as a young teenager I struggled to win the R stock in weekly racing.. I could have given 2 S$#@s less that I did not make the A main or win every week.. I worked within my budget...some weeks I won the J stock others I lost.. I had fun.. I grew up during a time when you actually had to work at something to be the winner. I played basketball.. I won some games I lost some.. when I won we got a trophy...when we lost we lost.. We did not cry about how the winning team had guys who should play something else cause they are TOO GOOD..

Today most newbs or haters say its not fair.. I should be able to win.. WHY.. what is the deal with racers anymore.. I dont get it..

I dont race stock anymore.. so its not that Im standing on a soapbox defending my stock racing... But it kills me to hear new guys weekly get mad because GUY X or Y is running in stock class making it unfair...Whats wrong with NOT BEING IN THE A.. >??? I was happy as could be winning the Z main when I first started.. Getting advice and improving on what I did week to week. the new thought process here seems to be...well Im getting a lap put on me every week.. Guess its just not fair..

The mentality your using is>>>If the guys lapping me quit I could be the fastest.. NO your not the fastest or best.. your fooling yourself.. Your still slow.. Your just the fastest of the slow.. Its just EASIER to blame the problem on others than to take time to learn how to do something right or better yourself..

Final answer... for 99.99999999999999999999999999% of the population there is no hobby/sport/whatever where the third week out you can be crowned the winner of anything.. believe it or not you still have to work for things.. Its not fair that your not as fast...well using that logic Its not fair I dont have 1,000,000,000 in my checking account like bill gates.. they need to make a job where a guy like me can make that much so all is fair. Its not fair that he had the money or was born with the intellect to allow him to go to an ivy league college.. Its not fair not fair not fair...It makes me want to puke..

I like to race the FASTEST people possible.. I like to know that a guy beating me is the BEST and is giving me his best.. Because over time when my turn comes.. I KNOW I REALLY ACOMPLISHED SOMETHING.. Not by changing the rules to where my SLOWNESS is the benchmark of fast. But by actually learning and working to become the best..

RACE ON

Sean Maxwell (OFF SOAPBOX) :thumbsup:

I didn't suggest anyone HAS to move out of the stock class. If you guys like racing in stock then don't bitch when a newbie accidently takes you out. From what I've seen so far where I race, attendence is way down and many former newbies have sold their stuff. I'm one of the newbies that is trying to stick it out but according to the post above if I don't improve then I'm somehow lazy. Nothing could be further from the truth, nor do I appreciate the suggestion that I am. I work 10 hr days and have a wife and 2 kids. I don't have alot of time to work on my car during the week nor do I get ANY of my stuff for free. I wonder how many of you would still be in the hobby without your sponsorships? All I'm saying is the guy like myself is at a disadvantage even before I go to the track. If you don't want to move up in class then don't! Just don't wonder why tracks are closing and what can be done about it!

So Hank and JB, using Seans logic the reason you guys won't move up is because if you do and don't make the A right off the bat then you're lazy and expect instant gratification. Whats the matter, you don't want to race with faster guys than you.:rolleyes:

NO you misreading.. Im saying the idea of saying guys need to move out of the class so you can be competitive is lazy...not the fact that you dont improve..

No one says you have to spend ANY time practicing or getting better..BUT realize there are guys who do.. and those guys usually go faster...

There are guys locally who make those statements..YET on a practice night I dont see them there...Who I see are the fast guys.. they put the time in...they win...easy formula...

I race real cars... I get destroyed by TEAM guys all the time.. It does not demotivate me.. I dont care I recognize their commitment level and dont expect to compete with that...The times that I am competitive Im proud at the fact that I worked to make something happen.. I dont go and say>>No far I should not have to race them.. I say WOW It took that guy $240,000 in his setup to beat me...LOL

As far as racing at national events>>I did so when I was a rookie.. I ran in the K stock.. I lost.. I had a great time, met cool people, still talk about the event to this date.. I did not run in the A.. I was Farrrrrrrrrr away from TQ.. I was closer in the standings to the slowest than the fastest.. Still had fun..

Is it possible to zap the magnetic arm of a brushless motor, in a way that would somehow introduce more timing? I assume not... at least not in a way that would work...



To "zap" a Neo magnet (what the rotor is) it takes a capacitive discharge magnetizer. That combined with the fixturing to hold the rotor would cost about 15K at least. So, no you won't be seeing those rotors zapped any time soon.

Also, moving the poles of the magnet would not effect the timing anyway. The only way to do that would be to change the programming of the speedo and/or the physical position of the Hall chips in the motor.

I would venture a guess that the motors are already programmed with the timing that produces optimal power for the number of turns they have. That is just a guess though.

So Hank and JB, using Seans logic the reason you guys won't move up is because if you do and don't make the A right off the bat then you're lazy and expect instant gratification. Whats the matter, you don't want to race with faster guys than you.:rolleyes:

It's because I know my limits. Heck, when I was younger (and better) I still never made the A main at larger events but I didn’t quit because of that. I was satisfied if I knew I did the best that I could do. To use your example, why should I move to the mod class and be in the way of everyone else?

Interestingly, this issue seems to be mainly an “oval” issue. You almost never hear about it in off-road and very seldom in on-road. If we take it to the extreme, in nitro off-road you have ONE class (1/10 scale truck) that everyone races in and no one says they need a slower/less expensive class for beginners. Maybe that should be done in oval too and then make it so each main means something rather then if you don’t make the A you ain’t crap?

I don't think anybody should HAVE to move up either, I believe it's a moral issue, if you go fast, have some funds and want the challenge, move up.
I've always wanted the challenge of going faster, I'm a speed freak :thumbsup: .

To touch on the National thing...I sure am glad I went to Cleveland my first year of racing (mid 80's) 200 entries in stock and 200 in mod, and I had one of the best experiences of my life, it helped hook me on the sport, and I'd like to see all kinds of rookies going to Nationals.

I was in the sport before sponsors, and I'll be in it long after their gone :dude: .

Fun, Fun, Fun, :tongue:
Later, Bret

It’s amazing how thoughts can be misunderstood and words twisted. LOL

I am going to take a few sentences out of context from J.B.’s post so please re-read all of what she wrote.

“If I were going to invent another class or type of motor, it would be a mod can, with adjustable timing. The arm would be a stock 27 arm. With this combination, a racer could run timing from "0" degrees to 36 degrees. Imagine, one motor covering at least 4 techable timed speeds.”


In a perfect world that idea would work but let me know a couple of weeks before that is done so I can invest in the companies that make good magnet zappers! Or would that be considered insider trading? LOL The 0 degree 19t class is a perfect example of how that went.



“A beginners class...there is none and there never will be.”……” What I'm trying to say is how long would we "cater" to the beginner?” …WOW I never thought I would ever hear anyone, especially an organization president say that!



“Oh.. I know ..They are budget racers and can't afford to go to National Race.”.......... I don’t know where that came from.



“Maybe this is what's wrong with our HOBBY..it's too SERIOUS. Maybe the majority have forgot why they got in this hobby to begin with. Maybe that TQ or Track record has gone to your head.” .........This is exactly why there needs to be a class with no National Status.



“Being an R/C Car racer is only an occupation for a very select few, and for the most part, that isn't all they do for the Manufactures that race for. Which would mean that 99% of those racing R/C's today wouldn't be eligible to attend a National Event and need to stay where they belong...at the Hobby Shop.” .......... Nonsense!


I will agree with one thing. We do have the Spec class and it should be a National event class. Having a cost control class is something we went way too long without but we need to look below that. What we (or at least I) was speaking of is an inexpensive class that a new guy right off the street can get into, learn how to race, and have a chance of winning in. Spec is not that class and like someone posted above, if you don’t have a chance at winning every once in a while, you lose interest.

I’ll stick to what I said….. We will never have any growth to what we do until we have a place for the Hobby Racer and that place is not at a National Event but at a HOBBY SHOP.

The problems I see in this thread and all just like it. People are having a hard time distinguishing between what is a beginner class and a cost controlled class for racers that just want to be in racing without spending the kids college funds or having to decide on tires for the r/c car or the family car.

There needs to be a low-cost way for new people to get into the hobby. Also, there is the need for a cost controlled class.

A cost controlled class need not be the lowest of equipment, but controlled on the items that are needed to be updated more often, ware out the fastest and is not the latest and greatest( tires, batteries, motors). It should not be limited too just a single car or type of electronics that cannot be used to move into other classes as the racer wants. It should not be packed with sponsored racers. By seeking sponsorship racers have made a commitment to race at a level to show case that equipment they represent. Stock as defined by ROAR is a show case class and one that manufactures need for selling their product.

A cost controlled class should be open to racers who have proven they are ready to move up from beginers classes. It should be open to racers who just do not have the reflexes to keep up with younger or as I would like to think more skilled older racers.
It is not fun begriming in a race where you are always having to move out of the way of the faster cars( and if you have any respect for the faster racers you should), trying not to cause one of the faster racers to lose on account of running over you (it may appear they have no patience, but sponsored drivers have a mission to do also).

I was a racer when there were only two classes to be in and winning the C main was an accomplishment and when you did get in the A main you were the big dog. But if it was so good then, why have we lost so many racers and having a hard time getting and keeping racers today. Time changes and so must the things we do.

It is funny how 9 years ago this same thing was a big topic. We all are at fault for wanting it our way and not trying to find the middle ground for the betterment of our hobby.

I agree aboout years ago...From where I stood I saw MONEY drive people away... When I started an RC10L kit was about $120 for graphite and about 100For fglass... Batteries were CHEAP...UNLESS you bought some trinity MATCHED 1200 batteries...those were a little more... BUT as cars evolved and batteries approached stupid the level between budget racer and serious racer widened...I saw oval fall of locally BEFORE there was any real choice of tires... Well you had a choice...green or blue... But $100 dollar packs of 1700 SCRC batteries had a lot of people thinking twice. I also remember doing a triple take when switching from my 10L to a LYNX car because of the cost>>and then furthermore when I bought one of the first hyperdrives..

So I agree cost is a factor.. BUT where I disagree is the thought that just because the "fast" guys leave stock and run mod that Stock will become cheap.. It wont.. Someone will always be willing to spend money to try and catch up... That being said a class like what your talking about with defined parts would keep the cost LOW..


HEre is a perfect recent example. We decided to run Mini coopers.. the tamiya kit is under 100... But after a few months of racing you were modding the thing with hop ups to the point where you had $400 or so in the thing to get it to corner and perform well.. Then the attendance fell off.

Kenwood...

I basicly agree with you that this is a racer attitude problem, not a real problem that can be solved with the formation of some new class or some new set of rules...

I've pretty much always been content to run what ever speed I happen to be. My problem is that I'm not nearly as fast as the fastest guys, and yet there aren't enough racers for me to get into a group of 8 or so racers that are simmilar speed to mine... If I could just compete week in and week out, with 6 or 8 other guys that were within 1 lap of me, then I'd be happy, even if it was in the "F main"...

When I first started... I too was a poor kid... but I sure had fun, even in the G Main, or whereever I ended up that day... I still have fun, but man I swear I'll never make the A-Main... and I don't really care, except that there are only 3 mains... and even when I run in the B-main, I'm lucky if there is one other guy that's within one lap of me... they are either two laps up on me, or more then two laps down...

I don't think there is a solution using rules... not sure there's a solution at all... heck maybe there's not even a problem... Lets just have fun... running the speed were capable of...

(my only expense problem is tires... now that I've given up brushed motors)

I agree we used to have 100 or so weekly racerswhen I started...LOL... So even the a main the split was less than a second between 1st and 7th starting position...

But back then I think the reason we had so many racers was the LHS offered a Package.. For $300 you could be racing the next week.. Now what was cool is.. In that package was the SAME car that guys in the A-main had... Back then I remember guys running in the a USING wind up PRO-TECH chargers...>>> Now while $300 was a lot of money>>at least to me @ 13-14 years old.. I WACHED From september untill christmas>>when I finally got my car.. Myself and my friends would go to the track every saturday and watch the racing... the track used to get a crowd circling it just to watch... We would show up early to get a good place to stand..

the package was like 2 packs of batts, a T4 esc, and RC10L, a futaba sport with s148 servo, a wimpy stock motor, a bolink body of your choice, and a pro tech charger.. And it might of even come with some tire dope ...I dont recall.. but at least you had a line in the sand...And when you asked the fast guys what they ran...the car was the same..mOTOR AND BATTS WERE THE SAME...they may have had a better radio with more controls or something but not much oter than setup was better..

Now when you wlk by pits as a newb and you see $4000 woth of stuff it gets mind boggling.. IF I was 13 now and my dad walked by and saw a $1400 TURBODYNO he would have told me immediately to get the idea of racing right out of my head... Or $400 GFX or $400 radio $320 KIT **where you still throw half of it away

I can remember thinking I had all the cool stuff when I got a BUDS DYNO... LOL.. Still have it actually...lol.

JB: I understand what you mean about track classes. Myself and a couple of buddies were planning on racing Legends at Greeneville RC in TN. It's our closest track. But now they are going to run breakout and any motor and battery. We don't care for breakout and we are not about to buy anything new just to race Legends. What I can't understand is, why change the lowest class of RC Racing with new rules??? Besides that, I can't see paying $20 for entry fee. If I were to bring my son, that's $40, this is not in my budget.

I think Larry B. got pretty close, but I'd like to point something out. Maybe it's only a definitional thing; but I think there may be more to it than that. A
"beginner" is a person; not a "class". A "Class" is a type of car, or set of rules for a car.

When someone says we need a "Beginner Class", I take that to mean not a "Class", but a "race" in which all the drivers are *beginners*. The exact type of car being used is largely irrelevant, but it certainly wouldn't hurt if the cars were all the same, and not overly expensive or complicated.

An inexpensive, not overly technical, perhaps even limited, Class of *cars* is just that; a limited class... not necessarily a beginners class.

So, when we talk about a "beginners" class, lets make sure we all know what we're talking about. Trying to debate or design a "Class" of cars doesn't necessarily do *anything* for a beginner. If you really want a true Beginners Class, just do it. Only beginners can run this race. Period. End of story. Thanks; Ernie P. :cool:

Larry B wrote:
The problems I see in this thread and all just like it. People are having a hard time distinguishing between what is a beginner class and a cost controlled class for racers that just want to be in racing without spending the kids college funds or having to decide on tires for the r/c car or the family car.

There needs to be a low-cost way for new people to get into the hobby. Also, there is the need for a cost controlled class.

Here in NY most popular car is EDM (Eastern Dirt Modified) stock. The Class is split up into 3 different classes. Sportsman (beginner) Small Block (intermediate) Big Block (expert). All classes run the same style body (dirt modified) but the cars (chassis) are by different manufactures CDK, Terminator and Custom Works. All cars run Stock motor, 6 cell battery. We have a modified open motor class as well. Here are some results from last saturday. You can see the difference in laps.

http://www.dirtoval.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif Radio Hill Results...11/5
SPORTSMAN EDM- A Main
1.Josh Stocum- 50 laps- 4:00.38
2.Cody Decker- 49 laps- 4:04.12
3.Larry Morris- 46 laps- 4:03.15
4.Robert Snell- DNS

SMALL BLOCK EDM- A Main
1.Frenchie- 54 laps-4:00.97
2.Jim Decker- 53 laps- 4:02.31
3.Brady Snell- 52 laps- 4:00.35
4.Dave Eldridge- 51 laps- 4:01.13
5.Lee Morris- 34 laps- 2:48.67
6.Paul Walborn- 6 laps- 0:31.75

BIG BLOCK EDM- A Main
1.Bob Mott- 60 laps- 4:02.15
2.Jim Carr- 58 laps- 4:01.50
3.Bruce Rawleigh- 58 laps- 4:03.81
4.Greg" the hammer"- 57 laps- 4:00.40
5.Butch Ervin- 54 laps- 4:00.22
6.Scott Baldwin- 4 laps- 0:23.02

We I race we are trying a new spec oval class. We are going to ran 20 turn Stinger Motor. This is something we are trying to bring in the driving skills rather than motor building skills. There was huge difference among the class with the 27 turn class. So are running a seven week point series to see how it goes. The more advanced drivers there is pro class that will be running 27 turn and 19 turn depending on the week. Should be interesting.

Ernie, I think it was said before, the idea of a "beginner" class is a falicy. When does a beginner cease to be a beginner? After 2 weeks, 5 weeks, 8 weeks? Then if the guy at 4 weeks is racing against a guy who just started, won't the 4 week racer have an advantage because he's got more experience? See there is just no such thing as a class where everyone will be a beginner. Someone will always have more experience than someone else.

At our dirt track we have an intermediate class for those beginners who have progressed.I know not every track can do this due to low turn outs.

BEGINNERS CLASS....

A beginners class...there is none and there never will be. Yes, we will have new racers come into the Hobby, and the best place for them to start is in the 4C Spec class. But if this "new person" has any desire he will be driving good enough in just a few weeks. What I'm trying to say is how long would we "cater" to the beginner? I have seen beginners run just a couple of battery packs and run right up there with the big dogs on a weekly level. What we can have and what ARCOR does try to promote is a cost controlled class. Because believe it or not and it's no sin, there are people out there that do live on a budget, don't work for GM and love the hobby as much as the racers that has been in this hobby for several years and earned a sponsorship.

".

Craig and JB: Exactly, when does a beginner stop being a beginner?