Hey everyone my Local track is thinking about goin to some sort of set rules for our 19t class. it has been more of a outlaw type class for the past few years but now most of us want to make motor rules. could someone please explain what the differences are with goin with either, roar, arcor, or ultrabird rules. what are the advantages and dissadvantages in all cases. and maybe some opinions on what other tracks seem to think work best. if you need any more info from me just ask. i hope some of you can help. thanks in advance!

joe ivo

Joe, the ultrabird deal is nice but then your kinda stuck with not running it anywhere else.

ROAR/ARCOR seem to be the norm, and possibly the fastest setup, period.
If I owned a track, that would be my 19 turn rule.

Later, Bret

ultrabird deal is the only way to fly!

we run nothing else in the state of florida! we miss out on the hot motor of the month. trick magnets and a 60.00 price tag! everyone has the same damn motor in there car. the motors are super easy to tech and almost all of them run very close to the same. i can say this because the focar series in florida has used them for 2 years now with 0 complaints. we love them here in florida. there 25.00 a pop and have broken every track record held by a hand wound in the state of florida.

you hear roar sucks and roar this and roar that. soooo why run roar legal motors when you aren't going to run in any roar races? very good motor to keep costs down and it keeps the racers from worrying about what the other guy has bolted into his car.

please feel free to email me katf1sh@earthlink.net best motor for oval racing in my 20 years of racing. not a single complaint 2 years and counting. william sell

www.focars.net

ARCOR allows the Ultra Bird. It's on the approved 19T motor list.

ARCOR/ROAR is the way to go joe, most already have them, so nothing new to buy
and, not used for just one track.
Nick

Nick im just gettin info to get to Bill M. i dont have much to do with the rules. if everyone that has an opinion mentions somthing im sure the right thing will be done. thanks everyone for the info so far!

joe ivo

Joe,

ARCOR is the way to go. Maybe he can get an ARCOR national?

Scott

I'm not a big Trinity fan.
The Ultrabird motor is the way to go for handout 19t class!
The motor comes with a fat commutator $25.00 per motor its a great deal for the money and is really fast!

:thumbsup:

Joe,

Ultrabirds are decent motors and run between the Roar/Arcor and the Cameleons performance wise.

Pros: Cheap, Easy to tech. Isn't it the ORL 19t motor ?
Cons: Is it fair for the ~sponsered driver~

Roar/Arcor you know these and the performance they can have.

Pros: Everyone who runs 19t in the area has them, Tech is not that difficult.
Cons: Cost, Andy running one :)

Cameleon, lowest performer (set timing)

Pros: ?
Cons: ?

I'd like to see the ultrabird format everywhere. There are so many cellar winders making frankenstien motors for a price 19T racing is a joke nowadays. You can get anything wound and stamped for a price, and company's now advertising they will wind illegal 19T arms.

mayhem you and I are on the same page! nice to know i'm not alone!

ARCOR!!!!!!!


We use ARCOR rules for 19t and Roar for everything else.. ROAR changed the rules so much for a while, we made it easy and went with what stuck..

Joe,

I think Marshalls should become a ARCOR track for OVAL. And follow there outline they seem to have a great set of classes to run. As well as the "newbie" classes and classes to step up into to progress. Also he could host bigger ARCOR events besides his annual OPEN HOUSE and ORL race. Which would be great for the local guys if they are interested in ARCOR points challenge they have going as well now which looks interesting.
IMO all OVAL tracks should seek ARCOR membership since they seem to be on track for what the oval community is looking for and some say needs. Being inexpensive classes and classes to move up to.
My .02

Joe, the only thing I'd tell them NOT to do is go the arcor route.. just use the arcor/roar motor rule.

the reason I didn't go to that race last weekend.. was I caught wind about the 19 turn rules, or lack thereof. No way was I going to go run in a cheating contest... just not worth my time.

We used any 19 turn motor, 36 deg. max timing. It worked well, real competitive. There were many combos that competed with each other.

Joe, the only thing I'd tell them NOT to do is go the arcor route.. just use the arcor/roar motor rule.

the reason I didn't go to that race last weekend.. was I caught wind about the 19 turn rules, or lack thereof. No way was I going to go run in a cheating contest... just not worth my time.

Curious, why not the ARCOR route??

We used any 19 turn motor, 36 deg. max timing. It worked well, real competitive. There were many combos that competed with each other.Same deal as above w/our track in both 1/10 & 1/12 19t. All motors must be run as they come out of the package-no swapping arms,cans or endbells.Any fastest laps or record times set that day-car gets teched. We've had Ultrabirds running w/19t Cobalts,Chameleon 2's & Kisbey D5's side-by-side-doesn't seem to be a "preferred" motor of choice. You never know which is gonna cross the line next! lol
-George
www.racewayathobbyworld.tk (http://www.racewayathobbyworld.tk/)

im goin to print all this stuff out on sat morning then basicly just give Bill Marshall the whole thing. that will probly help him deside better. i think maybe it would be a good idea to let ultrabirds and arcors run. and just not allow the main problem. which is no outlaw winds. no short stack, or big wire, and no making the armiture lighter. that might be the best of both worlds for us at marshalls. we will have to see.

joe ivo

and also just allow stand up brushes. no lay down and no p94.

Absolutely, as soon as you open it up to the p94 and laydown.. it's game over. standup small brush only.. 36 max timing, 19 turn, 19 ga, no hemi, no hybrids.

im goin to print all this stuff out on sat morning then basicly just give Bill Marshall the whole thing. that will probly help him deside better. i think maybe it would be a good idea to let ultrabirds and arcors run. and just not allow the main problem. which is no outlaw winds. no short stack, or big wire, and no making the armiture lighter. that might be the best of both worlds for us at marshalls. we will have to see.

joe ivoGood idea-just run those motors as they come out of the package,save for brushes & springs. Good luck w/your 19t class-let us know how it goes!
-George

Use the ARCOR/ROAR rules. Those are the most popular format and easiest to tech, as well as the most readily available and most consistent in performance.
Racers have trouble with the Ultrabirds being readily available everywhere, since they are a handout motor.
I vote for using a ARCOR/ROAR legal motor...everyone has access to them, and that's what's accepted and run at the majority of the 19T Oval races nationwide.:thumbsup:

Use the ARCOR/ROAR rules. Those are the most popular format and easiest to tech, as well as the most readily available and most consistent in performance. .:thumbsup:

I have to say I tried your X Putnam brushes with the Ultrabird 19 turn motor with blue Zuback commutator juice...Great combination!!

Ultrafast!!! :thumbsup:

Ultrafast Ultrabird!! :p

what motor are they running at this years snowbirds? is it the ultrabird again or no?

RPM/Thunder: Thanks guys, we try hard to put out the best products we can...I absolutely feel it is the best 4 cell brush on the planet right now...:thumbsup:

RPM/Thunder: Thanks guys, we try hard to put out the best products we can...I absolutely feel it is the best 4 cell brush on the planet right now...:thumbsup:


Oh come on Todd, Your only saying that because its true... :)

Thats all I run...Nothing else Ive tried comes close on the dyno or the track..

Only reason I say go with the bird is that 19t never get teched at the track. I've seen many cans used in 19T with 11D etched into the can with a 19t arm stuffed into it. We all know that can didnt come with a 19T arm in it but because it is standard D5 can, its OK to run. D4 cans can have any mags snapped into them.

The P2K copper stock can, and the Chameleon chrome can are identical, yet cannot be used with each other in stock racing. The EPIC stock satin brown can and a monster stock can (green or chrome) are identical yet cannot be swapped for stock racing, and rightfully so, point being this same standard is not being enforced at tracks for 19T because it is so hard to do. Since 19T racing has evolved I have only seen 19T motors teched once at the nats and even that turned into a cluster. Basically 19T is an open classwith un-approved arms run regularly at the club level. Money/connections = a possible edge in speed in this class. We have got to get some way for this class to at least have the appearance of parity to keep from discouraging racers. One or two motor choices could be the best way to do that whatever they may be. Lets not even talk about the cost of some of the 19t motors. Unfortunately, money makes the world go round!

Bob we are not talking about the hybrid stock motors here, we are talking about a 19 turn class that should be limited to an existing set of rules, and not just be "as long as it is a 19 turn it's fine, everythign else goes", which is what the track currently has for rules. There is no reason to NOT allow people to run whatever can with a 19 turn, then entire point of that class was to have a spec'ed armature, with a max timing and a standard standup brush. As far as $$ and connections, I don't know of a single winder that will do anything shady, they do not want the reputation of doing anything that is illegal, because one person gets caught with it and their name will be dragged thru the mud forever for it. I personally wanted to try a 19 turn on the skewed trinity arm that comes in the D6 and on a tri rotor arm, but I have yet to find anyone that will do it, and even if they would, they would not mark it as a 19 turn, simply because that is not what they had approved. Hell, I wanted to try it in hopes that if it worked well, I had planned to try to submit it to roar for apporval, and market it myself.... but again, noone will even do it. Start telling people that they have to buy cans too to run 19 turn, and we'll kill that class too... one of the reasons that epople like it is because they can go scrounge around for a can that they already have, and drop an armature in it and go. I know that all the cans that I have, are at a minimum 4 years old.

19 turn is not teched regularly because there is no need. The guys that are at the front of the pack on a regular basis, are running legit.. cheating a pretty tough thing to do and not be noticable.. the cars with a good fast 19 turn in them are so fast at this point, that anything other then a perfect car will not win, and everytime I run 19 turn, and watch others do so, the good cars always show up after about 30 seconds, and everyone else starts falling back at that point.. the good chassis always shows up.

Bottom line, you can limit the class to a couple motors, won't make any differnece, guys that are fast, will stay fast, and guys that are a lap off will still be a lap off.. and it wont' be any cheaper, people will just go thru a pile of motors to find that one good one like they do now.

for my vote this weekend im gonna just try to ban outlaw armitures and go with stand up brushes only. so if anyone that wants to run Legal ROAR/Arcor type motors can and anyone wanting to run Legal Ultrabirds can. i know at our track we dont wanna have to teck everything all the time. we basicly do it for fun. and im pretty sure if we set rules to not run any crazy winded armitures that almost no one will do it. and ofcourse stand up brushes is very easy to tech. anyways ill let you guys know what happens. seeya around :)

joe iv

That's the way to go with it joe, standup brush, and whatever can/arm setup, as long as it's a standard arm, and not a reedy in a trinity can, that kind of stuff.. you should be fine.

I don't know the ROAR/ARCOR rules to much for 19 nore do I run it enough to have a voice on the matter but couldn't a simple rule for this class could be to just allow 2 magnet cans, standup brushes, 19 turns, and a full blank arm? That seems the easiest and quickest way to tech. I think that getting into things like can thickness and arm thickness and any little detail like that might be to technical especially at the club level. I hear people complaining about the cost of 19 so if anyone that has an old mod motor sitting around should be able to be half way there instead of buying all new just to get going in this class.

An old mod motor is pretty much legal, as long as it is a regular standup brush setup... that's all that I run. All that can thickness, all that stuff is there so noone goes out and starts machining their own cans from blank stock I think. Way too much work IMO for any gains that would be seen anyway.

We had ours open to any can, any brush, any arm as long as it was 19 turn, 36 deg. max. As far as the brushes go, the laydowns aren't worthit and the p-94 last alot longer than standups. less $$$ for brushes. Yeah theyre a little faster on the dyno, but its still 90% car setup and driving that wins the race.

See dav.. too many options there... any 19 turn opens it up to all kinds of nightmares, and the p94 brush is fine and all, but that's not what most places allow. Best thign to do is try to mimic the rules that are most common, so as people travel, or travel to your track they don't need any added stuff, and are at no advantage/disadvantage.

The exact reason why I did not go to the marshalls race.. when I caught wind of the "open" 19 turn, I wanted to have no part of that.

The major problem behind 19 Turn racing is that it cost more than the old 6 cell stock class we ran years ago and yes you can buy any wire , turn combination you want with a 19 turn label.
Basically this doesn't help the future of RC racing .

We run a fixed timing class and try and keep a close eye on comms ??
Not perfect ,but close for local club racing.
I don't think there's as much cheating as lots of racers think , its just very easy to say the winner was cheating as an excuse why you got beat , not admitting that he pulled you by two-three car lengths every corner.

ncfrc@kingcon.com
www.northhaverhillrcspeedway.com

Where do you get ultrabird motors for 25.00 ???

Ncfrc@kingcon.com

Not sure what you mean by the wire thing, but I don't know anyone that will wind a 19 turn anymore with anything other then legal wire size, let alone have it marked as a 19 turn and not be. No reputable winder will do that.

Guys, the 19 turn cheating is pretty easy to detect by teching a motor, all you have to do is look at the endbell, see small standup brushes, then pop the endbell off after checking the timing to make sure it's not past 36 degrees, look at the the can, make sure that the magnets are centered over the zero mark on the can, sure ther is a little variance on that, but if they have been tampered with you will know, and thent he arm, measure the wire with a caliper, make sure it measures to the dia. of 19 ga wire, and weigh the arm, and make sure it weigh's enough. Measure the stacks too, make sure it meets the min stack height.

if the arm meets those spec's, and the endbell/can are o.k., then there's no problem.

we have two or three hobby shops in central florida that carry the ultr bird motors for 25.00 call TQ hobbies for them. any hobby shop can call and order them. we love them here in florida.

hey thanks Lambert for the teching help. you actually explained in simple detail how someone would tech a 19t. very much appreciated!

this week at marshalls there wasnt a 19t crowd. i think alot of people were tired from the last weekend cause it was long. so we didnt have our disccusion. we would rather wait till more of the guys were there. anyways im guessin everyone will be back next sat so we can talk about the rules. Bill M agrees we need some standards so im guessin our problem will be fixed soon. after its fixed i hope to see some others come down to race. if not thats fine but you cant deny how much fun we have! :) seeya

joe ivo