Hi, can someone from ROAR tell me if you measure the cell dimensions with or with out the shrink wrap on them. Also what is the current max and min cell size with the +/- tolerance. Thanks

oops was gonna post rules on batteries from the site but I don't think it answers your question, thats probably why your asking.

Mike I am guessing that it is a bare cell. The plastic wrap shouldn't have anything to do with size limits but only ROAR knows for sure.

There is a advisory vote in the current Rev-Up to incorporate the IFMAR battery dimensions (44mm cell length) which would make our current crop of 3800's legal for 2006.

Might be worth members time who want to run these cells in sanctioned events and other events that follow ROAR rules to cast a vote. You can download the RevUp at the ROAR web site if you've already thrown it away.

Bt

My take is there is one battery company that is brand new (IP), they got IFMAR to pass it. There battery is 44mm. The other brands we currently use will pass the 43mm rule -which is the standard for everyone.I have seen many of the florida racers vote no because why should one battery manufacturer be given an exception to the rules everyone else follows. The current 3600-3800 by the other companies will pass.

If I seem to remember correctly the GP3300 when they first come out were allowed to be legal even though they were over size... and the members did not even get a chance to vote on it ;)

I think that was because GP promised the next batch would be smaller. They went from the lime green shrink to the Yellow and Pink "Long Cell". Then back to the Watermelon shrink of the "Short Button" cells which I think were of legal size.

Could be, but being of illegal size still does not make them fall into the specs that had been in place for 20+ years. Once you start making exceptions then where does it stop?

bullfrog where did you get that the IP cells are 44 mm long. Are they increasing the od dimension also, since other cells are over the 23 mm diameter rule.

Every IP3800/Grepow3600 I have measured are 43.4-43.8 long. These are true virgin cells from Grepow as well. Unzapped and uncycled. IB cells in the same format are 42.9mm long. Within roar specs.

Wish I would have gotten a revup so I could vote...

EA

You can download the RevUp from ROAR's web site.

Bullfrog.... I am really wondering where you got the information that we had
IFMAR change their rule. Anyway, how could we possibly do that? IFMAR
changed their battery rules way before we submitted the cells to ROAR. At
the time IFMAR changed their rule, we weren't even importing any cells. And
obviously we didn't submitted any cells to IFMAR at that time. By the way,
the official IFMAR battery list has the IB cell, listed at 43.7mm length.


Hankster is right, ROAR requested GP to change their cells, and reduce the
length of the original GP3300 a couple years ago.


And we are also ready to have this change done to the IP3800 cells, if ROAR
requests us to. ROAR has been advised, and they do realize that the IP3800
cell length will be reduced if they require us to. It is ROAR's decision,
they can accept the IP3800 cells as they are now (43.4-43.9 mm ready to
race) or ask us to reduce the length, like they did with GP.


However, it's the same situation with the current IB cell, since they are
43.2-43.7mm, ready to race. If the IB cells submitted to ROAR, are really
0.5-0.7 mm shorter than the IB cells available in hobby shops, then there
is definitely a problem, and ROAR will need to seriously investigate that
situation.


The GP3700 is the only new cell that currently clearly fit the ROAR rule,
as the virgin GP3700 cells are 42.9-43.0mm and the GP3700 cells available
in hobby shops are 42.9-43.1mm.


For the benefit of the racers, ROAR needs to approve the 3 most popular
cells out there, the GP3700, the IB3800 and the IP3800. Racers have them,
they currently race with them all over the USA and they definitely want to
race them at ROAR sanction events.


Andre@infinite-power.net

Andre your never going to listen to anyone are you? IB cells ARE UNDER 43MM. IP's are the ONLY cell not under the ROAR requirment.

I just got in a batch of IB's today and measured 10 cells. I had some out of this batch that were under 43mm even AFTER zapping and shrink wrap.

Everyone has explained to you about the IB cells and how they are in spec but you REFUSE to understand that. Instead you wish to post on every board on the internet and whine about how your cells should be legal.

IP/Grepow should re do their tooling like IB and GP did to conform to the current rules instead of lobbying to get the rules changed!!

EA

I got some pictures of some new IB cells measured with a caliper. Even including the shrink wrap on the NEG end of the cell they are 42.99 on almost every cell I have measured.

The pics are too big to post here but I will email them to anyone interested.

EA

Let the members voice be heard,the vote will decide!

Just wanted to thank every one who posted here, that none of you have answered my original question. We have turned this thread, just like so many others into a pissing contest, and calling people names. I'll try calling ROAR agian today.

Mike,

Here is the answer to the original question:

8.3.2 Deminsions

8.3.2.1 Diameter: maximum 23mm,minimum 21.5mm

8.3.2.2 length: maximum 43mm,minimum 41.5mm

8.3.2.3 No further tolerences are allowed on these dimensions

The guidelines don't state if that is with or without the shrink wrap

Mike,


I have to assume that the shrink is included since it is included in the approval desciption ie:

GP GP3300SCHR - Rainbow colored label 1-6-2003

Mike Russel Thanks For The Reply. I Also Found 8.3.6 Very Interesting, Why Aren't They Following That Rule, Oct 1, Has Come And Gone.

That's a good question and one I can't answer. The approval should not only be communicated to those people but to the membership also. If followed correctly,then the manufacturers should already know the final decision unless ROAR is waiting on the results of the size vote.

Mike Russell I Would Have Thought The Size Vote Should Have Been Done Before Oct 1, Or The Excomm Should Have Just Made A Ruling, Legal Or Not, And Changed The Size To Meet Ifmar Current Standards Or Not Approve The Oversized Cells.

In Allowing The Decision The Go Past Oct 1 They Have Already Broken Their Own Rules.

I Don't Have Any Cells In Front Of Me Now, But We All Know The Ip Cell Is Over Current Length Rule And The Ib Are Over The Current Diameter Rule. Not Sure On The Gp I'll Need To Measure Some.

I agree......we are now into mid November,well past the deadline. This is just one of many reason the unsanctioned events are growing in popularity.

I Don't Have Any Cells In Front Of Me Now, But We All Know The Ip Cell Is Over Current Length Rule And The Ib Are Over The Current Diameter Rule. Not Sure On The Gp I'll Need To Measure Some.

Hey Mike the IB cells I measured for length are 22.8mm in diamter with the shrink.

EA

Ea The One'S I Have Are Larger Then That, But Ofcourse Mine Aren't Virgin Cells.

Mine arent true virgin cells either. They have both layers of shrink and have been zapped. A true vigin cell only has the one plain shrink wrap on it.


EA

I Know Mine Don't Come In Under The 23 Mm Mark, But Who Knows. Since All The Changing That Has Been Done To The Cell Maybe They Changed The Size Since The Cells I Have. The Cells I Have Got To Be 10 To 12 Generations Old By Now.

If your cells are that old then they are a few months old. After Vegas they changed the internal build of the cell to make it a better, more consistant cell. So maybe thats when they changed to the smaller size? Not sure but they have gotten a lot better since then.

In the end ROAR will make a decision. Some will be happy and some will be pissed....But thats how it always works. There will never be a day when everyone is happy at the same time!!

EA

I Agree, Everyone Will Never Be Happy At The Same Time.

I've read what the IP dist has said and I expected him to say that. I was told to expect that answer.I stand by what I've said and have 23 votes for NO on his batteries.Why does his batteries get an extension?Do we now change the international standard for all sub C cell batteries? At least I know we got 24 votes against his 44mm batteries ( the extra vote was just reported).

EA Motorsports it was a pleasurer meeting you at the warm up race and again at the nationals.Thanks for the help.

This would not be the first time ROAR made an exception.Who will be teching the battery of the week to make sure it is the correct size?The early batches of IB would not be leagal.

food for thought the IP CELLS are not legal for the snowbirds.

food for thought the IP CELLS are not legal for the snowbirds.

DavePull where did you read this about the Birds?

EA, I just received 3 packs of IB3800's and had already built 2 of them before reading your post and seeing your pictures. I measured the 4 cells I had left and they measured 42.9mm, 43.0mm, 43.1mm & 43.2mm. Diameter on all cells was 22.9 (I was careful to miss the matching stickers). By the way Picture #2 looks a little over the limit.

Mike Russell, if you are the ROAR Rep at a sanctioned event and 2nd place in the A-Main protests the winner because of illegal batteries that are too large, how would you tech the protest. Would you look at the Approved battery list and nothing else or would you combine that list with some measurements? If one cell of the winner's pack was over 43mm would you DQ him or let it slide?

I've read what the IP dist has said and I expected him to say that. I was told to expect that answer.I stand by what I've said and have 23 votes for NO on his batteries.Why does his batteries get an extension?Do we now change the international standard for all sub C cell batteries? At least I know we got 24 votes against his 44mm batteries ( the extra vote was just reported).

EA Motorsports it was a pleasurer meeting you at the warm up race and again at the nationals.Thanks for the help.

BullFrog (if this is Bill Fraden) the same question I asked Mike Russell goes for you. What would you do with the protest? Also if you guys in Florida are running IB3800's and everyone votes NO on the rule change to match IFMAR and the IB's that the racers have in their cars are over 43mm you have shot yourself in the foot. Unless you are going to ignore the rule to favor one battery over another which is what you were harping on in your post above.

I have a small concern with your wording "...we got 24 votes against..." What's this WE stuff. If you are a ROAR official you are suposed to be impartial either way. Sure you have your 1 vote but only in Chicago can you cast more than 1 vote.

Tom

it's on the website.

Hey Tom,

Yes #2 was bouncing on the calipers from 43.0-43.01. But I also didnt cut the shrink off the NEG end of the cell and it is .1mm thick. So it would have been well below 43mm had I dont that.

EA

IP's are also not legal at Cleveland. I don't know but seems there is something about those cells that people don't like.

It is Bill Fraden: I Know personelly of 24 votes -No on allowing one manufacturer the exception to the international standard for a sub c cell. Now after it is charged the batteries will grow. As yourself this question - If your making batteries are these only for RC cars. I doubt it. When they go make these thing in stick packs for power tools are they now going to tell them to make the tools bigger to fit the bigger cells? I think the battery companys will change if they want to sell there batteries to the power tool makers.The other companys involved have said they were complying with the real standard for sub c batteries why can't IP? My information came from good sources otherwise I would not post them. Presently the state series does no allow anything but 3300's.Maybe for 2006 - it hasn't been voted on yet.

.....

It is Bill Fraden: I now personelly of 24 votes -No on allowing one manufacturer the exception to the international standard for a sub c cell. Now after it is charged the batteries will grow. As yourself this question - If your making batteries are these only for RC cars. I doubt it. When they go make these thing in stick packs for power tools are they now going to tell them to make the tools bigger to fit the bigger cells? I think the battery companys will change if they want to sell there batteries to the power tool makers.The other companys involved have said they were complying with the real standard for sub c batteries why can't IP? My information came from good sources otherwise I would not post them.


Thanks for the reply, but you didn't answer the protest question I put to Mike Russell? What are your thoughts?

This vote is about one brand new cell manufacturer only - IP! Why do you even worry about something that has not even happened yet.If your local club wants to let the club racers use these batteries or the others it's a local decision.They should post it as a deviation. It's just when they travel somewhere else and they are told sorry you can't use them( series, regional,national).This is my view.

bullfrog, this vote isn't about one brand new cell manufacturer. It's about ROAR adopting a rule, that is already in place by IFMAR. And it does effect more then one cell.

EA, have you heard from ROAR, that you measure the cell without the shrink. I have been wondering that, and can't seem to get an answer. I would think you need to measure the cell with the shrink wrap on. Since it is part of the cell that is submitted to ROAR. But I don't know for sure.

Power Tools...that's funny.

Try this on for size: we (ROAR) are a signatory of IFMAR. Aren't we practicing international isolationism by not adopting the established international guidelines? It isn't like any of these cells is being manufactured here in the states (the normal reason for isolationism or protectionism), so what are we gaining by turning our back on our international brethren? What's next, listing the max cell length in millimeters, this is America!? Oh wait, we do that now… yikes.

But seriously though, there's an issue here, and it needs to get resolved one way or the other. Once it is, the sun will rise and set in the same directions as normal (rise in the west, set in the east, right? :freak: ).

Everyone seems to agree that at some point some GP 3300's were too big, some IB 3800's were too big, and all IP 3800's are too big. The only question then becomes, how do we deal with cells that are too big? DQ all, some, or change our rules so the majority of the ppl are happy?

Ahh well, I'm back to the DeWalt site…I need a new drill.

I can see ya'll know everything. This vote is because of ONE new cell manufacturer
( IP) that pulled a fast one ove IFMAR.I've heard there claims but if your a ROAR member then vote. Do you really think they manufacturer these batteries just for R C cars?Have fun........... You have 3 days to get your ballots into the ROAR office.

Bill,

Why so hostile? These are toy cars man! Lighten UP! It's not like we are discussing bird flu prevention or something...


:hat:

FWIW, I found this on IFMAR's site:

4.3. BATTERIES APPROVAL

4.3.1 The deadline date for submitting batteries (cells) to be approved for that year ’s World Championship is eight (8) months prior to the date of the Opening Ceremony of the World Championship. Applications for approval must be submitted to IFMAR. The submittal for approval must contain a written technical specification from the original cell manufacturer for verification.

A minimum of 50,000 individual cells must have been sold (by the original manufacturer or their agents) to commercial outlets in the retail or distribution sector of the hobby industry. Approval may be requested by the original manufacturer or their agents. The submittal for approval must conform to the procedure current at the time for IFMAR approval - copies available on request.

4.3.2 A verification of availability will be made four (4) months prior to the date of the Opening Ceremony of the World Championship.

A list of telephone numbers, email addresses and postal addresses of retail suppliers in each Bloc from whom the cells can be purchased must be submitted with the application. The manufacturer has to provide addresses of hobby shops where any driver who wishes to obtain these batteries at the time of approval can do so. Failure of verification will result in the non-approval of the product.

4.3.3 One (1) sample of each product and paperwork submitted for approval to be supplied by the IFMAR Electric Section Chairman to the appropriate IFMAR Electric Section representative in EFRA, ROAR, FEMCA and FAMAR to be checked that they comply with the rules. If a product meets all technical specifications and IFMAR availability requirements by a majority of the voting Blocs' representatives, it will be included on the Approved Product List for use at WC events.

4.3.4 Batteries Technical

Cells must be sub-C size, rated nominally at 1.2 volts and dimensioned nominally at 44.00 mm length and 23.00 mm diameter with heat shrink fitted.

No modifications allowed to the outer or inner cell construction or modifications to the chemical composition. Soldering for connections and wire is allowed

4.3.5 All cells must be submitted to Technical Inspection for checking and marking prior to being used during Controlled Practice, Qualifying and Finals. This may be completed at any time. Cells which do not bear the Organiser ´s mark may not be used for Controlled Practice, Qualifying and Finals.

The Organiser and IFMAR Officials may check the legality of a competitor ’s cells at any time during the WC event.

A weight scale will be available at all times during the event for competitors to carry out weight checks on cells.

4.3.6 IFMAR shall produce an Approved Product List which lists all the cells eligible for that year ’s IFMAR WC events. This Approved Product List shall be distributed to all competitors in the race acknowledgement package no later than two (2) months prior to the WC event.

4.3.7 Cells may not be charged or changed during the race.

4.3.8 Cars will be driven by a maximum of 6 cells and 7.2 volts maximum.

4.3.9 A receiver battery pack to power the receiver and Servo are allowed in any configuration. Under no circumstances may power from the receiver pack contribute to the power to the motor
------

Aside from the stuff that obviously doesn't apply (to this insanity), the latest IFMAR worlds that were held were the off roads this August. Now since the IFMAR site does not state when/if their battery rule was EVER changed, the idea that it was changed at the urging of IP is at best, suspect.

Even if it was changed for IP, IFMAR must be clairvoyant. For their rules to be adhered to, they would have had to publish these at least 8 months prior to the August off road worlds, in January of 2005. A simple whois search shows that the domain name for IP was not registered until July of this year.

Registered through: GoDaddy.com
Domain Name: INFINITE-POWER.NET
Created on: 27-Jul-05
Expires on: 28-Jul-06

I'm not saying that the registration of a domain name shows when a company was established, but it goes a fair way. I think we might be able to put the 'IP pulled the wool over IFMAR's eyes' conspiracy theory to bed.

Also FWIW, IFMAR's rule CLEARLY shows that the measurements of the cell are with the shrink on. How many layers, of course, it does not say ;)

Anyway...like I said, these are toy cars ;)

bull frog how do you see that IP pulled anything over on IFMAR? They submitted a cell, and it was aproved.

I really not going to discuss this any further ya'll are the experts.Did you vote yet?

Bill,

I'm not sure whom you are referring to when you say 'ya'll' but I by no means am an expert when it comes to batteries. All I've done is copied and pasted info from the IFMAR site to better educate everyone to the particulars of this discussion.

What you do with that information is up to you; I'm not telling you what to think.

My personal opinion is that if ROAR does adopt the IFMAR rules as is, there will be plenty of cells out there that will fall outside the then legal limits of 44mm with shrink wrap applied. Again, not addressing this further exacerbates a race day tech problem that no one wants to admit the existence of.

Vote which ever way you want, it honestly doesn't bother me one way or another (toy cars, remember?). The only thing I'd ask of ROAR, and of IFMAR, is clear and concise rules that can easily be practiced.

Right now we lack the clarity that we deserve. Fix that ROAR; everything else will fall into line.

Cheers!