I am in the process of making an entry level 1/10th scale pan car (RAPTOR SE, "Sportmans Edition). It will be your bare minimum car at a reasonable price. It will be fixed wheelbase location, single shock tweak screw setup.

I'm looking to get some feedback on a few things from as many racers from various tracks as I can. If you could, comment on anyone of these questions......

1. What is your most common wheelbase at your local track?
2. What is your most common front track width at your local track?
3. Battery location? Measured from the center of the front wheel......

Also, please add some info on your track surface and size please.....

Thanks in Advance!

Kenny@RAPTOR

i know you hate me...but you have a great idea! this is something we have needed for years now!

we all know a shorter wheel base car is fast..but it's not as easy to get around the track. so a 10 3/4 wheel base or something close would be good?

it must include a body and wheels will it come with a servo? receiver? radio? speedo?

very detailed instructions with nice photos.
a nice how to section
if the body were to look like a full size nascar the better it would appeal to the avg joe
32 pitch gears or 48 pitch?
must include a foam bumper molded to fit the included body to help reduce crash damage.
will it include a stock motor?
4 cell stick or traditional style pack?

i have a oval series in florida and have a huge interest in making these cars a reality.

i know i would have a seperate class offered for these cars if and when they are released.

your going to have to resist the urge as a racer to incorparate things you know make the car fast and instead concentrate on making the car solid. and work on as many surfaces and tracks as you can. things like wings and t-plates could be tough?

please keep me in the loop as far as this ready to run project goes..oval needs a place to start. thanks bill

It will be up to the "local hobby shop" to make it a RTR. They themselves could put together packages, bodies, radio's, etcs......plus, they probably get better pricing on those items than I do.

Kenny@RAPTOR

Can you give us some reasons why this chassis will be better than the Associated 10L3 Touring?

I would like to see an LTO 4 cell stick battery tray. How about making a chassis that will support foam blocks to protect the sides of the car, body, and tires?

A car like this is really needed in the new spec classes. A chassis designed for stick packs would also help with that class. I think spec guys should give more input on the measurements you're asking for. This idea I think will also help bring in new racers to oval. Todays cars have way to many adjustments for someone that has no idea whats going on. I hope this works out good and other chassis designers should do the same.

Can you give us some reasons why this chassis will be better than the Associated 10L3 Touring?

I would like to see an LTO 4 cell stick battery tray. How about making a chassis that will support foam blocks to protect the sides of the car, body, and tires?

I'll give you one GOOD reason.........the 10L3 Touring is discontinued.....

Kenny@RAPTOR

I am no fan of what a lot of people refer to as spec but if there ever was a place for it, this is it.A car like this is really needed in the new spec classes. A chassis designed for stick packs would also help with that class. I think spec guys should give more input on the measurements you're asking for. This idea I think will also help bring in new racers to oval. Todays cars have way to many adjustments for someone that has no idea whats going on. I hope this works out good and other chassis designers should do the same.

for entry level that would be an L4 with a solid chassis. lol

the only thing i could see as being a potential problem is the fixed wheelbase option. if you went ahead with this car it would be nice to see two different models. i own and operate a large 400+ ft track that most people like to use a long wheelbase on, but many people that we run with indoors in the winter which is a very short flat track like a short wheelbase. that is just my $.02 but i think either adjustable wheelbase or two different chassis versions would be a good idea

great idea me and a friend have been talking about it for a couple of years is what you need to do is use a spec motor and batts and a cookie cutter body genaric body and let them chose the front end decals that way aero dont come in to play at some biger tracks and dont forget spec tires

Kenny, I hope you don't mind me posting up here ....

What would be really great, is a set of rules the MFG's can design and build a car too. Because, without a set of rules or guidelines, a design could be quickly obsolete when the next company releases a newer product.

It would nice if the track or sanctioning bodies could come up with something. Arcor seems to lead the way with this kind of stuff. If would be great to see a dollar cap on the chassis. And also have a one step up class where the racer could bolt on hop-up parts.

[QUOTE=Raptor_MS]I'll give you one GOOD reason.........the 10L3 Touring is discontinued.....

hmmmm and I wonder why we can't get new faces to come out and play.. I wish someone would come out with a easy car for a beginner to learn..so-so cheap..setup and a easy way to put batteries in... I know Associated discontiuned their 10L kits and the L2 and so on but man!!! they got to be better than them TRC or Trinity Spec kits they had out... and for the price for them Spec kits... I could own a new Fiberglass 10L kit from Assc.. and run a whole lot better than those spec cars could even think about.. and still get new replacement parts still today... I'll admit I got a ADX II and a 05 Maverick and believe me it's alot of fine tuning to be fast but for a beginner whos looking to get into this and has to figure out the fine tricks to do it..don't see it happening.. build a easy kit similiar to a 10L whether it's a wide car (even thou trying to get a wide body is like pulling teeth)or narrow car I beleive is the ticket to get them in it.. Tell me whens the last time a decent kit was around $150.00 or less...hmmmm..I'm getting old....at least 10 yrs.. keep the rules on what kits can run in the class and stick with it..

We have a similar class here that we run as we call it our 6 cell Busch and 4 cell Arca.. It's all spec motors, tires, batteries but you can run any car kit..full Nascar body that is not cut out and no wings.. The 4 cell class is a kewl class for a beginner as it takes patience to be a clean driver and the setup doesn't have to be that technical... but as for 6 cell with the other kits that are out there... they are way to fast because of the high tech kits.. If you got a high tech kit then move on to 4cell Stock Nascar or 4 cell 19T Nascar.. Believe me there is plenty of competition there to be had.. I just think the lower grade kits would be better for the Busch or Arca class... with the lower cost of a kit,batteries,motor and tires.. it wouldn't be too cost effective and the beginners wouldn't feel like they would be in the way also when they race there cars they think its a kewl game to play even if they are in a crashed..they laugh it up and go on and do it again... after time thou when they get better then the serious racer should move on to the higher classes and see what they have and learn from there... Believe me the 1st race I ran was a 6 cell Stock GTP Nissan on a big oval and I was scared to death when the big boys came whizzing by me and all I tried to do was to learn and do better.. but it's hard to do both and try to stay out of the way.. just my .02 cents worth on here... not knocking anybodies products as I know they are all good.. just trying to get new blood into this hobby and what is it that we are suppose to do here... is too HAVE FUN!!!!! Peace Out!! The Dr!! :wave:

I would not even won't to get into this if every manufacturer is going to do it. I'm only stepping up to the plate because no one else seems to want to, and it really needs to be done. Hyperdrive and KSG both could build entry level kits and offer them alot cheaper than I can.

It is the only way I see to get beginners into it. And I think it would help almost every track that could offer them.

What I had in mind was similar to the L3, 4 battery slots on each side, MAYBE 2 front locations on wheelbase and offset pod option. NO SIDESHOCKS! Hell, Jimmy Flack could probably win with this kit....LOL......

Kenny@RAPTOR

I'll post up the CAD files as I go and get some feedback that way.......

Kenny

I think 10.375 and 10 inch wheel base would be all that is needed. Using standard Associated pod plate or IRS standard plates. The center shock mount at the neutral height, the middle option of most multi hole mounts made. Battery slots on both side would be great then they could run road course. I see more and more set-ups using standard pod location on flat tracks as well, so maybe only have standard pod location for the pod to help keep it simple.
Just some thoughts....

Kenny you have a great idea here.

I'll give you one GOOD reason.........the 10L3 Touring is discontinued.....

Kenny@RAPTOR

That's good enough reason for me! I had not realized that.

Can you give me some feedback on my earlier suggestions?

I don't feel the wheelbase adjustability is a neccesity, so it should be left out of the equation. The Legends didn't have adjustable wheelbases and they ran on all kinds of tracks. My first 10L didn't have an adjustable wheelbase and I never cared because nobody else had it either. I ran that car on a 30' x 50' track and in the spring and fall set it up to run at the Indy Velodrome.

Maybe you could have a 4 cell stick tray that ran underneath the shock to center the weight? Then the chassis would be able to run oval or road course. The great thing about the Legends was all the parts were included. This left no interpretation on what parts could be legally used. This issue would need to be addressed if local hobby shops made their own packages. It would be beneficial if two tracks 50 miles apart were using basically the same pieces to allow racers to travel and still be legal.

I do like the 'common rules' idea though. No offense meant to anyone, but what happens if Raptor decides not to make the chassis anymore. Bolink was a big company but now they are not supporting a great series. How is Raptor going to convince racers to 'buy in' to their new series? I think Bolink had a built in trust and reputation for their products. I admit that is what drew me initially to running an Associated car. You could get parts anywhere!

Posting the CAD drawings is a cool idea, Kenny. I can't wait to see what you will come up with!

chad :cool:

RAPTOR isn't going anywhere, the first reason for me to do this is because I acquired SpringCove Speedway. I too, need to attract newbies to the scene, and $300+ kits ain't gonna cut it. If I hadn't been in this earlier I probably would not have gotten back into it. I have already went thru the initial "price shock".

The way I would like to see this car ran, and will be ran at my track is....... you run the car just like it comes, no add-ons, no hop-ups. I may even stick a truck body on these and let that be the beginner class. Who knows? All I know is these cars will have their own class at my track and the experienced racer will not be allowed in that class.

Kenny@RAPTOR

Kenny have ran ARCO spec for ever--ran truck body this summer-truck bodies are easer and more forgiving to set up than car bodies!! They work anywhere bank or flat. Good body for beginner class.

Kenny, my hats off to you for your effort on this project. Just remember the KISS principle. We don't need two wheelbase options, or front track width or anything like that. I've raced the same car successfully on 400ft tracks and 80 ft. tracks. It will make no difference if every racer has the same car, they will make it work on the track they run on with the same options, NONE. So track size and configuration are irrelavant, don't worry about it. People need to remember , it's not designed for the 10 year veteran, it just needs minimal adjustments. People have gotten cars with more adjustments on them than they know what to do with, why overwhelm a new racer with that?

Once the car is a reality, come up with a catchy name for it, and maybe even include a set of suggested class rules like Bolink did with the Legends Car. It would be in the best interest of the tracks and clubs to heed the included rules to keep some uniformity from track to track.

One thing Bolink did for a while with the Legends cars was offer small 5x7 plaques with the Legends and Bolink logos on them for special events like points series races or stuff like that for the tracks that supported the Legends Series. It was a promotional item that worked nice.

As far as stuff like foam bumpers, unless the cost is negligible, make it an option item sold separately. Everyone needs to remember this is NOT a Pro Mod. setup.

Let me know if you need any "beta-testers" or ANY help with the project. I don't know if you've had contact with our hobby shop for retail sales but when you get ready to launch it, let me know and I'll give you the info.

Oval needs this badly, whatever we can do at our track just let me know.

Craig Prahl
Carolina RC Speedway
Easley, SC
www.carolinarc.com
cprahl at charter dot net

Unfortunately, I wrote the articles about the 10L3 Sport thinking they were still available. Actually all the parts are, Associated just does not “package” the kit any more. Even then I have found out a couple of things that would be a slight draw back to the car but it’s a mute point really at this stage of the game.

I would like to offer my suggestions to this project if I may:

1- To hold the machining cost down, it does not need battery slots. The class should run nothing but Spec packs and they do not fit in slots.
2- One wheel base only. This is a “beginner” class and they are just learning to control a car. If adjustments or options are created it will just confuse the issue.
3- If making it out of fiberglass will hold the cost down………go for it. We all raced fiberglass for a lot of years.
4- NO upgrades or “Pro” class. When the new guy gets to that point it is time for him to get into a real racing class.
Take a tip from the Legends, dirt simple, put rules in the kit box with one big rule…..YOU CAN’T CHANGE ANYTHING.


We have tried this and that and everything else in the last few years to get new people in oval racing and it seems that it always gets down to making classes for what we come up with and offering them at big races and when it’s all done we get right back to not having a place for the beginner because the “racers” have taken it over. Leave this car a beginner car and only offered at local race tracks.

Make this thing SIMPLE to build, and race and it just might serve TWO purposes; a cheap way to get into Oval racing and if the Legends cars can’t make a come back, it could be a place for those guys to move up to.

This one is going to hurt you Kenny LOL but it has to be cheap! If you sell this thing to Hobby Shops so that they can retail it for under $200 it could work. Otherwise, new guys will buy L4’s on Tower for $240 and none of this idea will work.

The last thing is; You “getter done” and RC-Oval will promote the hell out of it. We NEED this thing.

This is just my opion. The kit must be under $150. If the cost to the costomer were $200 why not just spend the extra $40 and buy new l4 or spend even less to buy a slightly used high end machine for about the same price. To get people to buy and race this things, they have to cheap durable and fun. Fiberglass is fine, even the older asc front end to keep the cose down even more. single shock, i bet you can get the older gold one from asc for dirt cheap if they still have them or the new one with no threads on it. dampner tube for the sides, older asc plastic shock mount. As a Hyperdrive racing I would like to be able to design a car to fit into the regulations for the class but understand if it turns into a bolink deal, were only one car was able to race.

Great suggestions Mclin. Agree with you right on down the line.

RC

I got the CAD done with pretty much ALL your suggestions McLin.

Kenny@RAPTOR

FORGOT something. The bumper should be out of Kydex (sp) rather than fiberglass of graphite. They are going to be "hitting a few things".

Hey guys, Didn't Trinity offer a T-spec pan car much like their T-Spec touring car?
I don't see it listed anymore but I think something under $100 like that would work.
Also I would make it Ready To Run. Why do you think the Monster Truck market took off like it did. It's called the advent of the RTR trucks like the E-Maxx/T-Maxx's. I would much rather buy it and have it up and running in 30 minutes versus building a Clod Buster kit for 2 days wondering if the things gonna run after I am done, lol

The bummer about racing these days, is the car (kit) is typically the cheapest part.
Say you buy 2 spec packs, and alternate them between heats and practice rounds, that is about $30. Then you will need one motor $30 range for a spec motor.
Then you will need a radio. Cheapest Futaba radio is the 2PH for about $45 with one servo. Then you need a charger. Something like a Duratrax Intellipeak would work for $55. Speedo Duratrax Intellispeed forward/reverse ESC - $38

Now you need tires, Spec tires are gonna be about $30 for a set

So just to get on the track say the spec kit is $100 you have about: $328 and that is bare bones racing, not including batts for the radio, a charger for it, Soldering iron, and tools to work on the car, tire dope, etc

I think minimum you are looking at $500.
That is still alot of cash to most just getting into a hobby.


That is why many opt for a Mini-T at $125 that is pretty much ready to run.

I think if somebody could offer nascar pan car type racing for about $300 ready to run, there would be a market for it.

as for the bumper a small kydex with a large piece of foam would be good.

Eric, I looked at the Trinity car after I found out all the details about the L3 Sport and man, it's really BASIC. To be honest it is nothing more than a Legends with a t-plate and in my opinion, a new guy would learn nothing with it.

Yes this way is more expensive but in the long run I think it would be worth it for new people. At least they would have "something" they can learn from.

DANG! FORGOT SOMETHING AGAIN!!

I would say for sure to keep this a ONE CAR class. First of all Kenny is stepping up here, we need to support him. Second, if any car can get in then who is to decide which ones?

......

Ok Lin I wasnt too familiar with that Trinity spec car.

I guess a big downside to having a super stripped down car is say a youngster picks up the hobby and gets into this class. Then what happens the following year when he improves his driving and wants to move into 4 cell spec or 4 cell stock. His car will be so off the pace with the other hot cars out there now. At least when you could get the L3O cheap that car could be somewhat competitive and you could move up the ranks with it.

Its a shame Associated couldnt offer that kit for about $130
I think somebody could take it and make it a ready to run package for about $250-300 if they had the right connections and got stuff cheap.

I would like to add this. No battery slots. Use the 4 cell spec pack and the battery cups that Associated made for the Rc10. Just drill 4 holes to hold them in one place. No opitions on location. spec 21 motor, R brush( they ware forever and easy to get), stock motor springs. Car must not be modified and ran as sold.

I say leave it up to the track owners, make it a one car class.

SpringCove will ONLY run my car in the class I offer. I've already got one car I need to keep up with advancements, I don't need another. Especially for beginners.

Kenny@RAPTOR

......

Sorry guys, I thought this was a discussion for the betterment of oval racing in general. Anytime you run a one chassis class, you risk repeating history (Bolink should have taught you all something).

Bowing out of the thread now ...

Jake

It is for the betterment........ Somebody has to step up and run with the ball. Whoever steps up first should get the class, you guys have been around during the huge decline in oval racing and haven't done anything to get newbies in, as far as making a cheap kit. Whoever does get them in production should be helped out by having a "beginner class".

Why I should I step up and produce these things, "cars that I will never run myself", then if it works, other manuf. start making one as well, when it was me that took the risk? Sounds like you don't won't to take the "investment" risk of making them, but you do want the "cashing in" opportunity to make one if it works.......

If you want to produce them, go for it.......I will not produce mine if someone else will commit to making one.

And as far as Bolink and the Legends...... no patent involved here, anyone can take over if someone folds.

We are both sitting on CAD drawings, your call Jake.....

Kenny@RAPTOR

It is for the betterment........ Somebody has to step up and run with the ball. Whoever steps up first should get the class, you guys have been around during the huge decline in oval racing and haven't done anything to get newbies in, as far as making a cheap kit. Whoever does get them in production should be helped out by having a "beginner class".

Why I should I step up and produce these things, "cars that I will never run myself", then if it works, other manuf. start making one as well, when it was me that took the risk? Sounds like you don't won't to take the "investment" risk of making them, but you do want the "cashing in" opportunity to make one if it works.......

If you want to produce them, go for it.......I will not produce mine if someone else will commit to making one.

And as far as Bolink and the Legends...... no patent involved here, anyone can take over if someone folds.

We are both sitting on CAD drawings, your call Jake.....

Kenny@RAPTOR


your a real piece of work. Jake is trying give input into this to help oval as a hole. it seems all you want to do is pad your wallet. :mad:

If it were as easy as that, I would be making beginner cars from the start.

Take it how you want it......

Maverick, KSG, Hyperdrive been in business how long? Where is their entry level car?

I'm putting something out there that THEY won't because there is NO money in it. Competition between manufacturers on a "beginners level" class, LOL!

All I'm saying is MAKE ONE then.........PUT YOUR "CARE FOR THE HOBBY" ON THE LINE AND KEEP THOSE SMART REMARKS IN YOUR POCKET!

Like you said Jake, you got one and HAD it for 6 months, CUT IT THEN. Not only will I not make mine, I will buy some from you for MY TRACK.

Could this whole deal with more then one manufacture be kind of like a Ford/Mercury or Chevy/GMC type deal? Same cars just different names. Kenny, Jake, Barry, Bill, Dave, Eric, whoever, all go in to make the exact same car. Work together and agree to manufacture a set # of cars per company. Its just like motors, most people buy motors based on who's name is on it even though they all are the same core motor. Try to make this an alliance to promote oval racing to the beginner and even spec class. This type of car shouldn't be made to out do each others designs.

I agree, they seem to want to put alot of input in and then bad mouth something they are not involved in, when the final result is getting beginners into this hobby.

I'm making these cars for MY TRACK, if other tracks want to use them thats GREAT. If it ends up having it's on class even BETTER!

Others have had endless opportunities to make one, but for some reason never did. I decide to do it, and look at the remarks.

here is my .02 cents:

kenny asked for help on car setup and design. not on how to run his business. he is trying to help oval racing. it wasnt a dispute on who has done this or who has done that. why doesnt EVERYONE get back on the topic for which this thread was started. bc the reason oval is dying is bc EVERYONE has to argue about everything. i can understand constructive criticism but cmon really guys.

Thank you!

I'll have some cut and assembled to take with me to the Nats.....HOPEFULLY, in case there are some track owners there that are interested.

I'll send you one McLin to REVIEW and GIVEAWAY on the RC-Oval site.

Kenny@RAPTOR

......

Kenny is just trying to grow this hobby and attendence at his track . I also think common ground could be found here to make a cheap car from all manufactures. But it wont happen because all the bad mouthing form one company to another. Jake , Barry , and every oneelse Do you rember how it was to be the new guy on the corner when you started to make cars? And going against hyperdrive ,Ksg,associated . I think thats how Kenny feels now. I think everbody should step back and give a new maufacture a chance to make a wave be fore the cutting them down .Because it looks very unprof. from my stand point.

this is a great thing that you are doing here kenny. correct me if im wrong but this isn't something you are trying to do to get rich by monopolizing a class just for your company. this is something that is being done for the hobby as a whole. it is a great idea that i love to see coming into action, because without new racers we oval gurs will soon we flying airplanes or boats on the weekends. no matter who does it, this has to be done soon. i know my track will have a car like this whenever it does come out.

chassis suggestions
fiberglass is cheap and easy to machine but more importantly it's easier on the beginner. have you considered a set gear ratio? this was a big hit with the legends cars and could possibly be a good way to keep things uniform. i had posted earlier about two different plates but now i dont think that is the way to go. if they are changing wheelbases its time to move up to the next class. suspension is something few people have mentioned. i believe dampener tubes are not the way to go. maybe tweak screws, but is there any way that you can set it so that the tweak cannot be changed.

now correct me if i'm wrong an anything but you guys gotta remember that the "begginners" are not going to be begginners forever, Like me i started last year (Exactly 1 year ago) and i started with an Associated 10 LSS and i'll tell ya what i ""out grew"" that pretty quick!!! I ran that car for 4 races in stock, i bought an L4 from a guy in our club and i went to super stock ONE race later!!! The "old" begginner car was holding me back, and i would have been alot better off if i had bought an L4 in the first place.

So anyways what I'm saying is that you guys should put atleast a LITTLE set up needed into because they're not really going to learn to much about set up until they go into like the stock class where they're in over their heads and they MIGHT get discurraged. so anyways that MIGHT make SOME sense but i think u know what im saying.

Like stated above, "everyone has kicked around this idea for awhile", but my point is NO ONE has done anything about it. That is where I come in. I know others can build these cheaper than me, there is really no GOLD at the end of this rainbow. But "in the longrun" as you say, hopefully we will have more attendance at the local level and National level after some of these beginners bump up to a faster class.

If you scan my posts as soon as I started RAPTOR back up, I said I would more than do my share to make this hobby grow. I tried "rockbottom" prices on products......well, that was a nightmare, now I'm going to build an entry level car, since there is NOT ONE at all on the market, and I get grief. Sometimes you can't when for losing. But if KSG or Hyperdrive had a entry level kit and had it's on class, how many gripes would you see then? I'll tell ya, NONE!

But I'm still producing the car, if tracks want to use it......... EMAIL ME.

Kenny@RAPTOR

Oh and by the way, the beginner car is all that was talked about......Creating it's on class is something that was mentioned and was merely an idea. And it wasn't my idea.

Kenny@RAPTOR

Kenny, what if you basically offered an L4 kit with a solid chassis. Even a fiberglass chassis. Use all the stock AE parts like the plastic center shock mount, servo mounts, and castor blocks. A fixed wheelbase and pod. This car should be cheap to buy, easy to put together, easy to setup, and easy to upgrade. When the beginner outgrows the car all they would have to do is get a conversion kit. Or use the same idea but offer upgrade chassis for each skill level. Like a step 2 that has the option to change pod positions, wheelbase, battery position. Then I guess the next step would be a V3 kit.

Being that I have never had an opportunity to meet any of the people posting on this thread I am able to look at things from the outside looking in. The way I see it is this, 1st it doesn't matter who make the car. In fact I think that people are right in saying that any manufacture who wants to make one should, as long track owners/Roar, etc agree on a common set of rules. Which will probably never happen until the cars are already produced, so I guess the manufactures need to agree. 2nd any car that can not upgrade later when the person improves and wants to move up is a waste and will do more harm then good. Lets face it, if you spend say $300 on a RTR oval car and then want to move up and have to spend another $500 to move up because you have to replace the entire car, people will be less likely to move up then if they can move up by adding a few parts here and there, in my opinion.

I run 10L4O and it is the chassis that I know the most about so I'll use it as my example. The setup costs would be minimual because they already have the templates. Use the same chassis. Use the basic front end (no IRS caster blocks). Use t-plate with tweek screws and one center shock. I'm sure they still must have the pattent for the old motor plate top for using the dampening washer. Use bushing instead of bearing. Use the LRP sport speed control or equal. Use Airtronics FM blazer or equal. Some kind of stock motor and battery. Let the manufactures decide which radio, motor and speed control company they want to partner with. Let the track decide on tire and bodies. Sure a person is going to spend $150 to $200 hundred to turn it into the team kit, but they will not have to spend it all at once to move up if they don't want to.

But these are just my opinion, and you know the saying about opinions, everyone has one and most of them stink. Raptor and everyone else, keep thinking of ways to grow oval, because if we do not, none of us will find enough people to race with soon.

One thing everyone needs to remember, respect everyones opinion just because it's different doesn't mean it's wrong. Without debate and difference in opinion life would be pretty boring and things will never move forward, because there would never be any new ideas.

Tim

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