GTB or Sphere better?
is BL system esc getting old(less punch)easliy? (cause by hot working temp.)

The GTB has significantly better specs then the Sphere... One could assume from that tha the GTB is better... But then the Sphere is or has been actualy sold to the public, after a very long wait, the Novak has yet to show up at retailers... There is an old saying that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush... A Sphere in your car, is better then a GTB on a web page...

The specs are rated different. I ran my Reedy/Lrp system again this past weekend and is as fast or faster than a 9 turn. I also ran it on carpet, it was only a tenth of a 7 turn.

The Sphere is offically rated at 0.035V/phase @ 20A (200A/phase max), which calculates out to 0.00175 ohms/phase. Compare this to the old Novak Super Sport at 0.0019 (160A max.) and the new GTB at 0.0004 ohms/phase.

I'm not sure if the LRP specs are a bit conservative or not, but the numbers say it's only slightly better than the original Novak SS. In actual practice, it took quite a bit of throttle hammering to get the Sphere to do a thermal shutdown (it happened to both Walt and me), while it was fairly easy to shut down the Novak SS with a hotter-than-the-5800 motor. When we checked Walt's ESC, it was above 240°, so maybe LRP just set their temp limit higher. Mine hasn't shut down since I put the fan on it.

To further complicate matters, Novak's website now says they're shipping the GTB. Just in time for the indoor season when HARDLY ANYBODY RUNS MOD! :mad: :cry:
Oh well, maybe the prospect of zero motor maintenance will change that...

Walt, which system are you running and what wind brush motor is it comparable to? I assume that you are running it in sedan and not oval.

I ran the Reedy Neo One motor with the LRP Sphere in my tc-4 on a large outdoor track the most. I would comare the bottom end to @ a 9 turn, but the straitaway pull was more like a 7 or 8 turn.

Thanks

i was wondering can you run a novak 4300 motor with the sphere controller are the compatible????

The Sphere should run any Novak motor.

Here's the brushless dyno data you've all been waiting for (and possibly fearing). Attached is a Word document with my dyno testing of the LRP and Novak brushless ESCs and motors. What it shows is basically what the spec sheets predict, i.e. the Novak SS is the worst (relatively speaking), the GTB is the best, and the Sphere is somewhere in between. The difference between the Novak Velociti 5.5 and the Reedy Neo One motors appears to be insignificant, though the Reedy motor might be a bit better at lower amp rates (the Novak 5.5 couldn't get down to 20 amps). The other obvious conclusion I can reach from this is: My dyno slave motor DEFINITELY needs a rebuild now!

Great data. Thanks.

I race 4 cell 4300 oval. What the data says to me is the difference between the GTB and LRP is negligible for my purposes. Definately a good thing since I bought the LRP. It also seems to back up my impression that there is not a huge difference between either and the SS for 4 cell 4300.

I raced the LRP last weekend for the first time and I'd say there was little difference between it and the SS.

Thanks for the info Kevin. Not really much difference between them. Damn...now I can't use that for an excuse.

RC

The numbers are interesting Kevin... Clearly the biggest differances are at 4 cell voltages... ( as could be expected )... That's all I want to talk about for now...

Can you explain the following.... The Novak GTB is clearly more powerfull all across the AMP range when compared to the Sphere with the 4300, 5800, and even with the NeoOne motor... However when you get to the Novak 5.5 motor, your numbers actualy show the Sphere having better numbers with that motor then the GTB shows with taht same motor. What's up with that?

The numbers are interesting Kevin... Clearly the biggest differances are at 4 cell voltages...
Not really. The biggest differences actually show up at higher Amp draw (up to 12 watts).

Can you explain the following.... The Novak GTB is clearly more powerfull all across the AMP range when compared to the Sphere with the 4300, 5800, and even with the NeoOne motor... However when you get to the Novak 5.5 motor, your numbers actualy show the Sphere having better numbers with that motor then the GTB shows with taht same motor. What's up with that?
I never promised to explain the results. :jest: Actually, a difference of only 1-2 watts could just be normal variation of the dyno.

I also just noticed that I "fat-fingered" the numbers for the LRP/Neo One at 6.9 volts. (Actually, Mark C. noticed it at the track saturday.) Made the Reedy motor look way better when used with the Sphere. I'll fix that shortly.

One other point to consider concerning the GTB vs. Sphere. It seems much easier and cleaner to use the Sphere with a brushed motor.
I made a customized 3 pin Deans connector to allow me to easily switch between brushless and brushed while still maintaining the ability to use my other equipment and my friends equipment:

Here is my Sphere with a brushless setup.
http://www.comparecenter.com/photodata//James/Hobbies/640/IMG_6704.JPG

Here is my Sphere with a brushed setup.
http://www.comparecenter.com/photodata//James/Hobbies/640/IMG_6711.JPG

Here is the brushed connector I made. Notice blue and yellow leads are shorted.
http://www.comparecenter.com/photodata//James/Hobbies/320/IMG_6708.JPG

The above is pretty simple. Now look at the GTB with a brushed setup (http://www.teamnovak.com/password/nov_pic/sec_page/photos/GTB_system_1Wire_1000px.jpg) . The GTB takes more wires to work with brushed.

Now if we could convince Deans to make a 3-pin connector....


I also just noticed that the Reedy Neo One motor consistantly has more torque and less RPMs than the Novak 5.5, which makes me think the Reedy is really a 6.5 turn, not a 5.5 as reported in at least one magazine. (I've never seen Reedy make a statement anywhere about the number of turns.)

I guess I didn't look at the 6.9volt numbers that closely.... There is a bigger differance then I first thought there was...

My original comments were based largely on the differance between the SS and the GTB ... With the 5800 motor, there is a 10% gain between the SS and the GTB at 4.6 volts - 40 amps. If I'm not mistaken, that's a bigger percentage gain then you see at 6.9 volts between these two controlers with that motor. (I see a maximum differance at 6.9 volts of about 7%).

Ah, but you'll never see much differance on the track... or so I'm told.

Very interesting information KevinM, thanks, now the question is what the average amp draw be for 4300 4-cell on Oval, because it appear that the higher the amp draw the bigger the difference.

I know that there is a formula, but I don't have it.

Thanks.

Last year in 4 cell carpet oval on a flat snowbirds size track, we averaged at least 30 amps, maybe a little higher. Very simmilar to what we were averaging with brushed 19 turn motors.

AJS....(runtime of given pack at 'X' amp rate - Runtime left in given pack at 'X' amp rate)/number of seconds in race. Take that ratio, and multiply it times the 'X' amp rate used on the pack...I.E. (400 second pack @ 30 amps - 50 seconds left after race @ 30 amps)/ 300 seconds (5 min race) = 1.167 ratio. Then take that ratio times 30 amps = 35 amps average draw...scary stuff at times :)

I think a better way to estimate real-world amps would be to calculate your average motor RPMs (based on track length, rollout, and lap times), then find where this falls in the the dyno data curves. I don't think battery capacity is reliable enough use. I just tried testing a couple stock motors on the dyno, and it couldn't make them draw 35 amps at 4.6 volts.

I think the reason you can't draw more then 35 amps at 4.6 volts on your dyno, is a limitation of your dyno and/or slave motor... not the test motor.

I just checked back on my old logger data from 12th scale stock and it shows that our motors regularly draw 50 amps coming off the corners (as high as 60). On the track these spikes Jump up and taper off over about a half second or so. Kinda looks like a saw tooth.

BTW: the average current measured during the run in 12th is within 2 amps or so of the calculation using capacity. This assumes that you dump the pack immediately after the run so that the pack is still hot.

The current average that we were running in 12th was 25 to 28 amps with good 3300's

Only an acceleration (flywheel) dyno can measure these spikes reasonably.

Wow! 50 amps with a stock motor. I'm afraid to ask what a mod motor really draws, but I'll do it anyway. Do any testing with mods?

Always wondered about actual amp draw at various points during a race. If after a race I guesstimate an average of 30 amp draw by seeing how much battery I have left, does the motor say pull 50 amps off the corner and drop to say 10 amps down the straights or does the motor pull 35 amps off the corner and drop to 25 in the straights. Track length doesn't seem to matter, the average amp draw is still 30 amps.Gearing up is the only thing that changes ave. draw, but just curious about the actual amp draw. Didn't Victor make something that would record this stuff and let you graph it or something?

The reedy neo one is a 7.5 not a 5.5 so it will have lower rpm (less top speed) but more grunt torque and trust me the neo one has plenty of grunt torque. You can pack on gear all day just watch the temps. im running 18/87 or 19/87 and after an 8 minute run it comes off with the motor at 170 but what I really worry about is the batteries are at 190. I know that is a little hot but what do batteries usually thermal at.

Basically, in 4 cell mod 12th you're not going to spike the motor up much above 60-70 amps without dumping. Even with the new cells.

Oval is a completely different animal, You can dump in 4 minutes with 3300's easily (mod). Figure 420 seconds at 30 amps for the pack and you can do the math for average draw in 4 cell oval.

From a dead stop (race start) you can see a spike up to 120 amps pretty easily depending on the motor and gearing.

Always wondered about actual amp draw at various points during a race. If after a race I guesstimate an average of 30 amp draw by seeing how much battery I have left, does the motor say pull 50 amps off the corner and drop to say 10 amps down the straights or does the motor pull 35 amps off the corner and drop to 25 in the straights. Track length doesn't seem to matter, the average amp draw is still 30 amps.Gearing up is the only thing that changes ave. draw, but just curious about the actual amp draw. Didn't Victor make something that would record this stuff and let you graph it or something?

Hank sells the Eagletree system on the Hobby Shopper site. They even have a GPS option now.

The reedy neo one is a 7.5 not a 5.5 so it will have lower rpm (less top speed) but more grunt torque and trust me the neo one has plenty of grunt torque. ...

Where'd you hear that the Reedy is a 7.5 turn? I don't find anything on their website or in their ads that state it.

Here's what I've measured with my "winding resistance tester" (in milliohms):

Novak 4300 (10.5 turn) = 16.8
Novak 5800 (8.5 turn) = 11.2
Reedy Neo One (?? turn) = 7.0
Novak Velociti 5.5 = 4.8

The Reedy is closer to the Novak 5.5 than the 8.5, which is why I'm guessing it's a 6.5 turn. Anybody with Reedy connections out there that can find out for sure?

You might want to look at the LRP 'inernational' forum... I'm not sure if they ever dicussed the details of that motor or not...

What I find somewhat interesting... At one point, I read somewhere that the Sphere had a brushless motor limit of 6.5 turns... but then I looked at towerhobbies site the other day and they list 5.5 turns as the brushless motor limit... and well clearly Kevin has used the Sphere and a 5.5 turn motor.

In 4 cell oval racing... I bet the amp draw of stock ranges from about 34 amps in the corner and 26 amps at the end of the straight... at least for the really fast guys. They sure don't slow down very much in the corners, and you can barely see them accelerate at all commming out of the corners. It's probably a optical illusion, but it looks as if the fastest guys actualy pickup speed going into the corners.

Most likely the only time they hit 50 amps is at the start, after, or during a crash.

Pretty much the same for 19 turn 4 cell carpet oval... although they do seem to accelerate a bit off the corners, and they average very close to 35 amps.

Actually, the instruction sheet for the Sphere states the brushless motor limit as "> 5.5 turns". I've never actually raced it with the Novak 5.5, just with the Reedy motor (whatever IT is).

Kevin, have you got any good brushed motor dyno data at those same voltages and/or amp loads? Perticularly for somehting like a 19 turn, and maybe a good 10 turn, etc... It'd be interesting to have some comparison between the brushless and the brushed...

Reedy throws more motors at us. I see they have a 11 turn & 13 turn brushless motors coming out. I don't remember what the novak 4300 & 5800 are turn wise but I bet they are not the same.....Seems like Reedy is very late in the game or they just have fun listening to everybody complain LOL. I'm sure these motors will start some interesting posts.....

Mike - The Novak 5800 is a 8.5 turn and the 4300 is a 10.5 turn. Brushless motors are usually a "something and a half" turn because all the windings are connected together at the shaft end, so the new Reedys should be that way too. Maybe they just mean they run like an 11 or 13? Where'd you hear about them?

Kevin - Tower Hobbies has them on their new products listing. There is no information other than the name.

I see nothing to complain about. With brushed motors you have winds from 6 turn to 27 turn each with either single, double, triple, quad or quint winds. There are far more choices in brushed motors then there is with BL.

It's all fun and games until Novak comes out with a 5.5 double...

If Reedy wants to put out 4300 and 5800 style motors, they need to make them have the same performance if they expect people to accept them. The fact that all the motors are reasonably the same is what makes brushless perfect for oval racing.

I have been reading your posts with great enthusiasm. Some of you appear to be very knowledgeable. In Florida we are setting rules for the 06 oval season and want to run a brushless class. My question is this. Would it be fair to run a Novak 5800 motor against the first Sphere motor? Will running the GTB speed control w/ a 5800 motor produce any advantages of running it with the SS speedo? I am drafting the rules and want to make it as fair as possible. ANY input would be appreciated. :thumbsup:

the best advise i can give you is set the rules for a good all around motor, the 4300
and then you won't have to worry about speed controls and other rules for brushless.
by far hear in michigan brushless has taken over in vertually every class in the past year, but the most popular class has been 4300, its faster than stock, easier on the batteries and lower tire wear than the 5800.

It's all fun and games until Novak comes out with a 5.5 double...


Actually, it's already a triple. (I think. It's hard to see how many wires are in there.)

... My question is this. Would it be fair to run a Novak 5800 motor against the first Sphere motor? Will running the GTB speed control w/ a 5800 motor produce any advantages of running it with the SS speedo? I am drafting the rules and want to make it as fair as possible. ANY input would be appreciated. :thumbsup:

The Reedy Neo One is MUCH more powerful than the 5800. I agree with mbeach, choose one motor for a class. Or choose a number of turns, so if Reedy builds clones of the Novak 4300 or 5800 motors you can run them, too. Assuming that someday Reedy actually TELLS US how many turns their motors are! :jest:

the best advise i can give you is set the rules for a good all around motor, the 4300
and then you won't have to worry about speed controls and other rules for brushless.
by far hear in michigan brushless has taken over in vertually every class in the past year, but the most popular class has been 4300, its faster than stock, easier on the batteries and lower tire wear than the 5800.

Sounds like a plan! Thanks.......

I have been reading your posts with great enthusiasm. Some of you appear to be very knowledgeable. In Florida we are setting rules for the 06 oval season and want to run a brushless class. My question is this. Would it be fair to run a Novak 5800 motor against the first Sphere motor? Will running the GTB speed control w/ a 5800 motor produce any advantages of running it with the SS speedo? I am drafting the rules and want to make it as fair as possible. ANY input would be appreciated. :thumbsup:

From what I hear the GTB is faster than the SS with a 5800 motorin oval. I think the GTB has a higher thermal cutoff and way better resistance. This means they can gear up without thermalling the speedo.

Hmm... there are a half dozen or so guys over on the oval thread that insist that there is no differance in speed between the SS and the GTB (or the Sphere)

Then there are at least a couple that claim otherwise...

I have no track experiance with these matters, but based on Kevin's dyno data, my own knowlege of electronics and RC... I can't understand how it could be that there would be no differance... There is clearly a differance in power between the SS and the GTB, it must show up on the track.

I figured that some might be interested in the spreadsheet that I made last year to compare motors with different RPM bands. The spreadsheet allows you to change gear ratio's to match up the powerband of two motors for comparison.

The first two sheets are the raw data and the third is a comparison of power vs. car speed. M1 is the Novak 5.5 with the ratio that I used when I ran it. M2 is the Reedy motor (with GTB).

The data shows that the two motors are totally different. The Reedy either has a higher wind or totally different timing. With enough gear, you can make the Reedy look a lot better but you would have to see how it looked on the track. It may or may not be able to pull more gear.

All the data is from Kevin's dyno runs posted earlier.

dyno, the only thing i can tell you is that this past weekend at fastlane raceway in kansas city we had all three speedos in attendance the ss+, sphere and the gtb and there is no visible advantage at all. we all three ran the same lap times at one point or another, qualified within a couple thousands of each other the top 4 qualifiers as follows tq-lrp 2nd-gtb 3rd-lrp 4th-ss+

i understand that dyno data tells you one thing,but from what we can tell it is all about chassis set up and gearing(rollout) we were all suprised at the results!!!!

so in conclusion no matter which speedo you choose you will be fine,just worry about setup and gearing!!!!!:thumbsup:

brushless racing is awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! rick k.

That may all be true Rick, however I've heard from guys in Michigan that are stating otherwise. One I belive said they were seing between .03 and .08 seconds per lap. The other I think said about 1 or 1.5 laps per 4 minute race. The one that said the later, is the father of one of the most consistant racers I know, and I belive that he would have never said such a thing if it weren't true.

Fred - I'm fairly sure that the Reedy Neo One is a 6.5 turn, based on the dyno numbers and the winding resistance. This would also explain why it has more torque and less RPMs.

As far as whether the GTB is faster, the only way to really find out is to run a race with the SS, then swap it out with the GTB (making no other changes to the car) and run again. Actually, it should be done in a practice session with no other cars out there.

I agree with Rickk5 (about 90% anyway) in that it seems to be mostly about chassis setup in oval racing. (I'm assuming that's what he's talking about.) However, better equipment in the same car should go faster.

I discovered this weekend that you CAN get thermal shutdown with the GTB running the 5.5 motor IF the fan stops running (6-cell Touring car on carpet). One of the other drivers had several shutdowns with his Sphere until I sold him a fan. (Why didn't I wait to do that until AFTER the mains???? :jest: )

On a side note, I just looked at the Fastlane Raceway web site. Looks like a great facility. Almost makes me want to move there.

According to Tower's web site, Reedy has apparently renamed the "Neo One" motor to the "Neo One 3-Star", and has 2 new motors designated 2-Star and 1-Star, which they equate to an 11-turn and a 13-turn. Based on this HUGE amount of information, I'm guessing these are 7.5 and 8.5 turn motors. The Novak 5800 is an 8.5, and it runs basically like a 13-14 turn. If true, does this mean Reedy's 4300 clone will be called the "minus one star"? :freak: