Just someone's opinion on Star Trek....wonder what he thinks of modelers who model Star Trek?

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-card3may03,0,6007802.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

By Orson Scott Card, Orson Scott Card is the author of "Ender's Shadow" (Tor Books, 2000) and "Ender's Game" (Tor Books, 1994). His most recent book is "Shadow of the Giant" (Tor Books, 2005).

He's just jealous that none of his stuff ever got turned into movies or TV shows. He's trying to elevate sci-fi writing in general - and by extension his own work - above other sci-fi work not by proving that his is better, but by trying to smear the other's name.

It's a common tactic among people who are jealous of another's success.

Well, actually, he praised a whole lot of shows - it was only Trek that he dissed. It's a pretty short article - he doesn't do much to back up his thesis. I thought I detected a slightly Seussian flavor in his history of Trek though. That part was entertaining.

Card's thesis that fans embraced TOS because they didn't know any better would be insulting if it wasn't so idiotic.

He didn't praise the other shows, just name dropped them. He didn't explain why they were better, just implied that they were better by default, simply because they weren't Trek. Likewise with the list of writers names. He conveniently fails to mention that Ellison wrote one of TOS's best episodes (City on the Edge of Forever) and that Niven contributed to TAS.

And I'm sure that if you investigated the histories of the other Trek writers over the years, many will list those same names as influences so, in a "once-removed" kind of way, all those people wrote for Trek.

I only had to read halfway through his article to see that he's never watched the show but rather, forms his opinions based on the way "fans" and their interests are portrayed in the post-TOS mass media. Sigh. He has a chip on his shoulder about people who have found something that makes them happy, an accomplishment that I suspect he has yet to achieve.

I must say that this article is quite typical of the LA-Red-Times generally poor research and reporting of most any topic. No wonder their sales numbers are going into the "toilet". A "toilet" I should hasten to point out from which shoddy newspapers never return, unlike the TV "toilet" he mentions.

Will anybody be starting letter writing campaigns to bring his career back (or even get it started)? Somehow, I doubt it...

Ladies and Gentlemen,
We must remember that Mr. Card is entitled to his own opinion ... Just as you and I are entitled to our own opinions ...


And my opinion is that he is a sniveling putz who wishes he had half the talent of Berman and Braga!!

Disclaimer: The use of the two aforementioned "super-putzes" (Berman and Braga) in no way constitutes a favorable endorsement of their work, but merely illustrates said individual's place in the grand scheme of things. Simply stated ... If Berman and Braga were whale poodoo ... Mr. Card would be, as difficult as it may seem, beneath even them.

I must say that this article is quite typical of the LA-Red-Times generally poor research and reporting of most any topic.

I couldn't agree more. It's sad, really... The Times used to be a much better paper.

Getting back to Card, I do think he makes some valid, if rather obvious points regarding the evolution of dramatic television. Unfortunately he undermines those points by needlessly trashing a milestone of 20th century popular culture.

Given Card's assertion that TOS was "poorly imagined, weakly written, badly acted" one can't help but wonder what dramatic TV shows from that era he considers superior. I mean, were "Mission:Impossible", "The Man From Uncle" or "Gunsmoke" any better in the writing and acting departments than "Star Trek"?

Card is correct in suggesting that audiences have grown more sophisticated in terms of being able to suspend their disbelief when it comes to sci-fi/ fantasy themes and concepts. But to take a beloved series like TOS to task for not being "Buffy" or "Firefly" is patently absurd.

Nice coming from a guy named Orson! Who names their child Orson anyway? Only those fat babies you see on The Maury Povich Show are called Orson.
He's just mad because Mork would rather spend more time with Mindy than
send daily reports from Earth. And might I say Mearth was one very ugly child!
Star Trek is not dead! All we need is for some writer to come up with an original idea and Welcome Back Star Trek! So we fans and modelers will wait until the next fresh idea comes along, Orson! NANU!NANU!

I think you hit upon a good point there, Carson. Card doesn't seem to be taking in to account the Era that TOS was produced in. While compared to a lot of today's shows, the acting and production, IMO, were at the pinnacle of television for the time. Especially when compared to the over-the-top campiness of other shows of the late 60's. Comparing TOS to "Buffy" is to compare apples to asparagus.

Even taken out of it's 60s context, TOS still works. The writing was usually very intelligent, and there was a point behind the story.

To be honest, I've never been a huge fan of Card - Ender's Game was good, but the sequels just haven't managed to live up to the original. It's a shame to see someone who has at least some potential sink to the level of "mindless hater."

If he wants well acted Trek with a through story, how about DS9?

Well, I do think Card is a wonderful novelist, and I usually enjoy his work, even if I often disagree with his world-view.

Here, he's just being a putz.

Given Card's assertion that TOS was "poorly imagined, weakly written, badly acted" one can't help but wonder what dramatic TV shows from that era he considers superior. I mean, were "Mission:Impossible", "The Man From Uncle" or "Gunsmoke" any better in the writing and acting departments than "Star Trek"?


Mission Impossible was one of the best produced, written, and acted dramatic series of the 1960s. It won emmys for writing, best series, and several for best actor/actress. It was a ratings giant for seven seasons. You can't help but be amazed at the cleverness of the plots. If anybody thinks the first MI film was complex, you'd be lost trying to watch the series. If you miss a couple minutes, forget it. The great thing about the structure of the story is that the viewer isn't let on to what the MI team is doing. At the beginning of each episode the viewer is shown various gadjets, masks, etc., but not informed of the plan to carry out the mission. As the story unfolds you begin to see all these devices come into play cumulating in a big payoff that always leaves you satisfied and amazed at the cleverness of it all and thinking, "Man, how do they come up with this stuff!" The masks are the coolest part. Sometimes they wear masks over other masks, put masks on the bad guys, have bad guys with their own masks. TV at it's best. With all the mindless crap that has been on tv since day one, combined with the retarded attention spans of most viewers, it's a credit to the writers that the show was able to DEMAND the undivided attention of enough viewers to have a successful seven year run.

Personally I don't put any stock in what the LA Times has to say. I mean they think illegal immigration is a good thing :rolleyes: . I'd sooner be getting my news from the national Enquirer or the Star, than that rag....Although I have to admit the Times does have its uses...kindeling, birdcage liner..etc

Mission Impossible was one of the best produced, written, and acted dramatic series of the 1960s.

Hey, you'll get no argument from me. My intention was not to denegrate "Mission: Impossible" by lumping it in with the likes of "Star Trek" and "Gunsmoke." My point was simply to illustrate the wrong-headedness of comparing 60's era TV drama with contemporary programming -- which is precisely what O.S.C. does in the Times' piece.

Sci-Fi novelists like Card hate to admit the fact that, from a purely dramatic stabndpoint, science-fiction literature is often less than compelling. As has been stated elsewhere on this forum, sci-fi tends to be an idea-driven genre, whereas drama is less cerebral and more emotional.
Audiences reacted to "Star Trek" because they found it to be entertaining as well as thought-provoking. It was also, at the time, utterly unlike anything else on the air. Given the context I find it odd that Card would accuse TOS of being unimaginative.

In a way I feel kind of sorry for guys like Card. A lot of qualities go into being a good writer (sci-fi or otherwise), but a contempt for your audience isn't one of them.

[QUOTE=In a way I feel kind of sorry for guys like Card. A lot of qualities go into being a good writer (sci-fi or otherwise), but a contempt for your audience isn't one of them.[/QUOTE]

HERE HERE!

Seconded!!

You also gotta acknowledge one of the reasons science fiction authors tend to slam Star Trek and/or Star Wars is it gets their name in print. Whens the last time you heard anything newsworthy about Orson Scott Card? I think the last time I did Omni magazine was still around and he was stumping for legalized marijuana. Which you'd think would make him incined to enjoy Star Trek.

I did like his novelization of The Abyss screenplay.

Card is a good writer. "Ender's Game" is a minor classic, so his talent isn't at issue. The problem is that I believe a lot of sci-fi authors are not-so-secretly jealous of the Roddenberrys and Lusas's of the world because they're so much more popular...or maybe I should say populist.

I can guarantee you that authors like Card encounter situations like this all the time at parties and the like:

"So Orson, what's it you do for a living?"

"Oh, I'm an author (note he's already ever so slightly offended that he hasn't been recognized)."

"That's fantastic! What do you write?"

"Science Fiction mostly"

"That's great! I love Star Trek"

"I write books."

"Oh yeah I love those! What was that book about the dinosaurs? That was a good one"

And so on. After a couple decades of that I'm sure we'd all be bitter. Fact is, populist, middlebrow entertainment will always be more popular than the more esoteric fare.

Sorry Orson.

You also gotta acknowledge one of the reasons science fiction authors tend to slam Star Trek and/or Star Wars is it gets their name in print.

With all the name-dropping Card indulged in I got the impression he was brown-nosing for a writing assignment -- which is fine by me. But if he thinks trashing TOS is going to endear him to guys like Joss Whedon or J.J. Abrams he's even more deluded than I'm giving him credit for.

For the record, I do believe the "Trek" franchise ran out of creative steam a long time ago, and that contemporary audiences are ready for something new (even if that something new turns out to be a well executed re-imagining of something old, as is the case with BSG). Nevertheless, TOS represents television at its best, and the Orson Scott Cards of the world can do little to tarnish its legacy.

Fact is, populist, middlebrow entertainment will always be more popular than the more esoteric fare.

The irony here is that, in its day, TOS was neither populist nor middlebrow (suffice it to say popular TV series' don't get cancelled after three seasons).

But I suspect you're right with regards to the tedium that most likely accompanies being introduced as Orson Scott Card.

Card strikes me as being like some other artists I've met: too full of themselves to realize that not everyone "gets it" like he's expecting them to. Sometimes an apple's just an orange, dips**t...

José

Come to think of it, one of the best sci-fi shows of all time came out of the sixties, THE PRISONER.

:thumbsup:

I don't get the feeling he really means what he says. I think he got paid a couple of hundred bucks to fill up half a page - and had to fill it up with something. It's a provocation, signifying nothing.

suffice it to say popular TV series' don't get cancelled after three seasons).


These days the really good shows get cancelled much sooner.

Progress or ADHD(short attention spans) in executives?

In the future the good shows will all be canceled before they make them!

Jim ;)

In the future the good shows will all be canceled before they make them!



We're almost there! Crusade was cancelled before the first episode aired!

Haven't we heard of series that were announced for the upcoming season but they were cancelled without one single episode airing?

José

Come to think of it, one of the best sci-fi shows of all time came out of the sixties, THE PRISONER.

People who like/love the show (like me) usually forget it when they talk SF of the era, cuz everybody remembers Irwin Allen lunchboxes and trek, but you got it, PRISONER still hasn't been matched IMO.

In terms of shows with genre or fantasy elements, I guess my top ones all-time would be

THE PRISONER (despite the last episode)
TOS
TWIN PEAKS
FIREFLY


I did enjoy a lot of B5 (would have liked it more if Bruce Boring hadn't come on and blanded everything out with his 'i'm the hero' 'tude) and a hunk of DS9 and many of the 1985 TWILIGHT ZONE revival, but the ones I listed above I rewatch all the time, and never seem to tire of.

In terms of shows with genre or fantasy elements, I guess my top ones all-time would be

THE PRISONER (despite the last episode)
TOS
TWIN PEAKS
FIREFLY


I did enjoy a lot of B5 (would have liked it more if Bruce Boring hadn't come on and blanded everything out with his 'i'm the hero' 'tude) and a hunk of DS9 and many of the 1985 TWILIGHT ZONE revival, but the ones I listed above I rewatch all the time, and never seem to tire of.


Agree 100%

but have you no room for episodes from

X-FILES
U.F.O.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
BRIMSTONE
STARSHIP TROOPERS ROUGHNECKS

perhaps lumped in with B5?

Jim

THE PRISONER (despite the last episode)


:lol:! Yeah, me too. One of my first exposures to "I guess that must be very philosophical, because I don't know what the HELL just happened!"

X-FILES
U.F.O.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
BRIMSTONE
STARSHIP TROOPERS ROUGHNECKS

perhaps lumped in with B5?

Jim

The wrapup on xfiles left a really bad taste in my mouth (same thing for B5, come to think of it), but I do gotta admit that for several years, X was pretty damned good TV, especially season 3 with the Peter Boyle and Charles Nelson Reilly episodes, which were better than anything I saw at the movies during that time period. It sustained a lot longer than I would have thought possible, though the move to L.A. changed the look of the show in a negative way for me.

Never saw UFO or the others, though I keep meaning to watch BUFFY. What is BRIMSTONE, anyway?

:lol:! Yeah, me too. One of my first exposures to "I guess that must be very philosophical, because I don't know what the HELL just happened!"

For me, the ending has always been, "I wrote myself into a corner after making my co-creator quit, but since we're in weird turbulent times, let's do something REALLY weird that folks can argue over for awhile."

Canadian public TV did a lengthy interview with Patrick M in the 70s that used to run at the conclusion of the series when California PBS stations re-aired it ... I wish they'd included this on the DVD set, because from what I remember it was very informative about the performer (not so much about the series, though.)

Even though about a million shows have ripped it off (including later episodes of the X-Files), Jose Chungs From Outer Space is by far my favorite episode of X-Files, and one of my favorite episode of a show ever. I still have that great Randy Bowen cold cast statue of the "pilot" in his cage on my bookshelf, though my wife hates it!

"The Prisoner" is one of those shows I admire more than I actually enjoy.

My sc-fi/ fantasy TV faves go something like this...

TOS
THE TWILIGHT ZONE
BSG (new)
KOLCHAK: THE NIGHT STALKER
ST:TNG
THE OUTER LIMITS
RED DWARF
THE IRWIN ALLEN COLLECTION (I like lumping them all together; saves time)

Never saw UFO or the others, though I keep meaning to watch BUFFY. What is BRIMSTONE, anyway?

Buffy is well worth the watching, at least the first 5 seasons. Rent, if you're not sure. The first season (12 eps) and some of the second is notable for doing very clever takes on some classic horror themes - the possessed ventriloquist dummy (The Puppet Show), Frankenstein (Some Assembly Required), the Creech (Go, Fish!), invisibility, etc. From mid-2 on the show found its own identity and really took off with full-season serialized plots.

BRIMSTONE, as I recall, was about a guy who sent escapees from Hell back where they belonged? Mostly what I remember was John Glover (Lionel Luthor) as a decidely wicked Satan.

BRIMSTONE, as I recall, was about a guy who sent escapees from Hell back where they belonged? Mostly what I remember was John Glover (Lionel Luthor) as a decidely wicked Satan.

Right!
It only got as far as 13 episodes.
Peter Gabriel supplied the title music.
Peter Horton was a dead cop who the devil let out of hell to round up 113 escaped spirits. Every time one was captured (by destroying their eyes) the tatoo on his body representing that spirit painfuly burned off.
Also featured Lori Petty in a small support role.
Great series that desperately requires a DVD release.

UFO was a top live action series from Gerry Anderson. I think it was the first episodic genre TV show with an overall arc to it, which is what all shows do now.
Aliens are real and abducting people for spare part surgery, and a secret organisation is covertly trying to stop them. It was set 10 years in the future, but as it was made in 1969/70 it took place in the 1980's.
Great titles and music too.

Jim

UFO is available from A&E video. Watched it all recently, and it was as good as I remembered (barring some very awkward and outdated 70s attitudes and fashions). It was made in '72, and set in the exciting future of 1980, wherin spaceflight was common, every major country had a moon base, and executives had turbine-powered cars.

Oh well. :(

*sigh* The future isn't what it used to be (or even what they made it out to be)....

Remember when the year 2000 sounded so futuristic? It's almost mid-2005... we're has beens!

José

... can't party like it's 1999 anymore either.

... can't party like it's 1999 anymore either.But ... but ... but I've got a lion in my pocket, and baby he's ready to roar. Doesn't that count for something anymore?

Qapla'

SSB

UFO is available from A&E video. Watched it all recently, and it was as good as I remembered (barring some very awkward and outdated 70s attitudes and fashions). It was made in '72, and set in the exciting future of 1980, wherin spaceflight was common, every major country had a moon base, and executives had turbine-powered cars.

Oh well. :(

One thing became very apparent the first time I sat thru the boxset, the casting director, whoever he was, was definately a ass man. And probably the director of photography as well.

As opposed to Kramer, who was The Ass Man.

I agree completely, the UFO boxset is a lot of fun, and the episodes look great!

But ... but ... but I've got a lion in my pocket, and baby he's ready to roar.

You might want to have a doctor take a look at that. :lol:

José

One thing became very apparent the first time I sat thru the boxset, the casting director, whoever he was, was definately a ass man. And probably the director of photography as well.



Somewhere I saw a behind-the-scenes photo of the film crew setting up the very first shot of the series. The camera was mounted on the bed of a golf cart with the cameraman and director lying on their bellies next to it. they were carefully lining up an ass-level shot of the ass of one of the SHADO control room girls as she walked down a corridor. :lol:

Ah, the 70s.