This is not the type of movie I would normally go see in the theater - or even rent for that matter. The last "martial arts" movie I actually saw by choice was probably "Enter The Dragon" back in the 70s and I really know nothing about the whole "chop-socky" genre of the last two decades. But I had a couple of hours to kill tonight and had read a couple of good reviews from reliable sources so decided to give it a try. First of all, I would just like to say that this "Kung Fu Hustle" is a Movie with a capital "M". Director/star Stephen Chow has a great visual style and he really knows how to use all the craft and artistry of movie-making to tell a story in a very cinematic way - and he references everything from musicals to cartoons to spaghetti westerns to horror movies - there's even a visual tribute to "The Shining" in there. And the physical comedy is both astounding and funny as hell. Cross Tex Avery and Chuck Jones with Bruce Lee, Quentin Tarentino, and not a little bit of Jerry Lewis and you'll have some sense of the "style" of this movie. It's rated R for graphic violence but the violence is extremely cartoonish - think Wylie Cyote if he were made of real flesh, blood, bones and viscera. I was entertained and just sort of thrilled in parts by the pure inventiveness of this movie and found myself laughing out loud throughout the film - something that very rarely happens. If you've thought about seeing "Kung Fu Hustle" but are on the fence - I say - go see it.

i got hold of a Chinese import lst week and was able to watch it in it's native language. it was a treat to not only watch the movie (for all the reasons listed above) but to also hear the actual actors voices and their mastery of inflection rather than some peple they paid about five bucks to ruin the feel of the dialogue. I think that there was more than a bit of visual poetry in it as well and I *really* hate wire work in Martial arts films, but here it made sense and was used to accent the action rather than make it seem just superhuman. It is a must see for peole who want to see a good movie that's not an American blockbuster with a lot of shortcuts.

Just to be clear. They did not dub the movie for the American release.

Yes. It's subtitled - which I agree makes the whole viewing experience more authentic. I don't like dubbed movies - except maybe the early Toho films.

Glad to hear that they didn't dub the movie for American release. i got to see the several year old Chinese DVD, so *shrug*. But ya gotta admit, that's an amazing decision for whoever is distributing it. i wouldn'ta ever thunk it!!

Toho...films...welll, that's when yer looking at them through rose colored prisms of youth, ain't it? :)

I had choice tonight of either "Kung Fu Hustle" or "Up For Grabs." That's a documentary on the ridiculous legal battle for Barry Bonds' historic 700th home run.

I think the positive word here has swayed me over to KFH. Plus, even though I'm a diehard Giants fan, I don't need to hear about Bonds for 90 minutes!

The actor who plays the 'deadliest assassin' used to be a bruce lee lookalike in the '70s. middle age hit him hard.

I'm just gonna put a good word in here for dubbing. Movies are meant to be watched, not read. I can't enjoy a good visual that a cinematographer spent time composing, and editing that some poor guy sweated over, if I'm reading subtitles.

movies and acting are also meant to be heard, so, it can be a toss up. Dubbing wouldn't be so bad if they had people who would try to get the inflections and subtleties across. Potato, potahto

I went and saw it last night. I cannot remember the last time I was so entertained at the movies. It gets increasingly difficult to feel that I've received my moneys worth. Even more difficult is getting me to laugh out loud.

I was laughing out loud on a number of occasions - reminiscent of my first Monty Python and the Holy Grail viewing back when I was about 13.

This movie is flat-out hilarious at some points. Toss in a heavy dose of astounding action sequences, bizarre and colorful characters, original effects and a terrific soundtrack. Go see it!

By the way, no worries about the subtitles. They rarely, if ever get in the way or cause the audience to miss the action. It's 90% visual and the dialog is kept to a bare minimum when there's something to see on the screen.

Glad to hear that they didn't dub the movie for American release. i got to see the several year old Chinese DVD, so *shrug*. But ya gotta admit, that's an amazing decision for whoever is distributing it. i wouldn'ta ever thunk it!!

The Chinese DVD is only a few months old. It was Shaolin Soccer, Chow's previous film that was delayed for years (as was Hero)

I'm just gonna put a good word in here for dubbing. Movies are meant to be watched, not read. I can't enjoy a good visual that a cinematographer spent time composing, and editing that some poor guy sweated over, if I'm reading subtitles.

There is no good word for dubbing. It's the destruction of one-half of an actor's performance plain and simple. Let's say that you created a model for a television show that got really famouns, The Red Dragon, and they decided to send it around on tour. But the model is going to a town where everyone is red-green colorblind, and they want them to be able to appriciate the model, so they hire a 14yo willing to work for minimum wage to repaint it to the Blue Dragon. Sure he lacks any finesse to his skill, care for his work, and is going to finish it in the fastest, most slapdash way possible, but now the people of Red/Greenland can see its true colors, even though it in no way represents the fine work you put into its finish.

If you have trouble reading subtitles, you just need to watch more subtitled films and read more in general. With practice it now takes me approx 1/4 second to read a subtitle, and on the big screen it's even easier.

This is the first Chinese action film I've seen theatrically other than Crouching Tiger and Hero pretty much period. With the exception of occasional imported prints, I almost always refuse to go because I will not see films that are butchered (anything released by Miramax is missing anywhere from 10-20min) or dubbed. Thankfully the other studios seem to have figured out that screwing with people's work doesn't seem to generate them any more money, and therefore is not worth the expense.

subtitles are pretty dreadful too. In general.

I went last weekend with my 12 and 9 year old. The violence (outside of the Axe Gang resorting to shotguns in one scene) isn't any worse than you'd see on Looney Tunes. And maybe not even then (Daffy gets it worse).

We all had a good time. Kids didn't mind the subtitles.

I don't like dubbing. I don't even like it when they redo the lines in post production. Hey, the lips don't match!

Sword, are you under the mistaken assumption that subtitles are 100% accurate translations, and perfectly represent the actors' performance? :lol:

I've seen a lot of very well-dubbed films, where the actors doing the dubbing are over 14. Mirimax, in fact. Their presentations of Miyazaki's animes, with dubbing by notable American actors, are quite wonderful. And I can appreciate the beautiful visuals that Miyazaki and his team worked so hard to show us.

I don't need practice reading. I can read fine. I don't despise subtitles - I have many wonderful Kurasawa films on disk, and all of Studio Ghibli's work in orginal Japanese, not a one of them dubbed - I'm an artist, a visual guy, and I simpley prefer to be in the visual medium. If a film is especially visual, subtitles are an annoying distraction from the flow of the visual. There's a time to read, and a time to watch.

Sword, are you under the mistaken assumption that subtitles are 100% accurate translations, and perfectly represent the actors' performance?

Not at all. I do know that without some minimum wage hackjob tossing his voice where the actor's should be that I can listen to the real performance and glean what they wanted me to hear and feel, not some ADR director trying to make it his own.

I've seen a lot of very well-dubbed films, where the actors doing the dubbing are over 14. Mirimax, in fact. Their presentations of Miyazaki's animes, with dubbing by notable American actors, are quite wonderful. And I can appreciate the beautiful visuals that Miyazaki and his team worked so hard to show us.

The entire point of the "14 year old" remark was saying that it's someone without a lot of skill and experience, hired simply because they can speak and are willing to work cheap (and most of the time, non-union), resulting in a by default far substandard product. Quality is not the watchword, cranking it out is.

Anime, like all Japanese words is both singular and plural, and if you watched the care and attention Miyazaki puts into the voice direction on his films(it's on the Spirited Away disc) you'd see the difference. One is his intention, the other is someone's best guess at his intention. And considering we have people on those docs talking about how they made "different choices" than the Japanese actress. Their job is to exactly replicate the original performance, If they were supposed to be making choices, then they'd be acting in an original production. The only non-Japanese version that can be viewed is the French dub of Porco Rosso, because apparently Miyazaki prefers it to the Japanese version (though I personally found it lacking in the richness of performance that the Japanese version has).

Kurosawa films to my knowlege have never been dubbed. But the point I was trying to make is that with practice and effort, the subtitles take nothing away from the visuals because you learn to read them fast enough that it in no way interferes. If visuals were the medium of presidence, we'd still be watching silents.

You're right, I should have seen it from the beginning. People who shun dubbing are freakin geniuses. People who prefer it to subtitles are complete morons.

I know!! We should all take Japanese and Chinese lessons! That way we can enjoy the films as they were meant to be seen, like intelligent people such as yourself, rather than redneck trailer trash.

I know!! We should all take Japanese and Chinese lessons! That way we can enjoy the films as they were meant to be seen, like intelligent people such as yourself, rather than redneck trailer trash.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

I'm late here, are you guys saying Sword is trashing something!? NO WAY!

I loved the movie! I laughed my Butt off!!

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Please don't insult me because I have a different opinion of dubbing than you do.

Well, no doubt the DVD will have the option of subtitles or a dubbed track. Given the option, I'd still prefer to watch the old Tohos - not to mention the one or two bizarre German Grimm's Fairy Tales movies I saw as a kid - dubbed. The viewing experience would somehow be diminished otherwise.;)

Please don't insult me because I have a different opinion of dubbing than you do.

You really, really don't want to see me be insulting. Believe me you'll have no trouble recognizing it. You say you have no trouble reading, yet complain about reading subtitles.

What you prefer is irrelevant. As an artist, you must appriciate the fact that people aren't repainting your models or other pieces. Filmmakers are artists too, and the least barrier between you and their original film is subtitles. If it's not in the original form, it's simply wrong, and dubbing is removing half of the original film, it's the same as cutting every other frame. You're advocating the destruction of other people's art, and that's at best hypocrisy. An artist has the right to have his work seen as he designed it, and I have met plenty of HK directors and actors, and not a single one of them wants some hackjob who just got off his shift waiting tables at Denny's speaking for them.

Sword, are you under the mistaken assumption that subtitles are 100% accurate translations, and perfectly represent the actors' performance? ......

Actually a Chinese friend of mine was laughing about this one day. he siad that he'd read the subtitle and heard what was said and his comment?

"That's not what he said!" LOL

Of course, Chinese translates soooo well into English :P so yer screwed no matter what, me thinks.

Been learning Chinese.....A *lot* of subtleties there, lemme tell ya!!

doesn't matter, I just enjoyed the nuances of the performances by the actors.

People

who

don't

like

subtitles

can't

read

too

fast.

What you prefer is irrelevant.

To you, apparently. Right back atcha.

...and not a single one of them wants some hackjob who just got off his shift waiting tables at Denny's speaking for them.

I somehow doubt waiters from Denny's are dubbing "House of Flying Daggers" and "Nausicaa."

I would also doubt that, for instance, authors mind having their books translated into foreign languages. Hey, it's not their writing, it's some hack job kid from Denny's rewriting their words to fit another language! Sacre merde!

Actually a Chinese friend of mine was laughing about this one day. he siad that he'd read the subtitle and heard what was said and his comment?

"That's not what he said!" LOL

I see that a lot in subtitled films too, when I happen to be able to understand the native language. After I watch "Brotherhood of the Wolf" in the English dub (so I could enjoy it), I rewatched parts on French with the English subtitles on, and was amused at the differences.

To you, apparently. Right back atcha.


No, period. Did you direct the film, or have any input on its creative process? No
Therefore you nor I have any right to dictate how it is presented. Only the creators do.



I somehow doubt waiters from Denny's are dubbing "House of Flying Daggers" and "Nausicaa."

Sure are. Maybe not in the main roles on studio-financed dubs, but the minor and background characters? I'll bet you $10 that if you started making calls you'd find someone who waits tables. And since 95% of the dubs out there are done by people who can't afford those with a SAG card, it's largely irrelevant.

I would also doubt that, for instance, authors mind having their books translated into foreign languages. Hey, it's not their writing, it's some hack job kid from Denny's rewriting their words to fit another language! Sacre merde!

What does books have to do with movies? It's the same as a subtitled version, and yes they do have to give approval.



Actually a Chinese friend of mine was laughing about this one day. he siad that he'd read the subtitle and heard what was said and his comment?

"That's not what he said!" LOL

Most Asian languages do not translate to English well, especially when it comes to cultural idioms. It takes a skilled translator to find English equivalents to them.

I see that a lot in subtitled films too, when I happen to be able to understand the native language. After I watch "Brotherhood of the Wolf" in the English dub (so I could enjoy it), I rewatched parts on French with the English subtitles on, and was amused at the differences.


You can enjoy it plenty. Just put a little effort into it. Either you're saying that "I'm dyslexic" or "I'm too lazy". It's one or the other. Just admit "I'm too lazy to put any effort into appreciating their performances, and I don't give a crap about artistic intent, just don't mess with MY artistic intent" and I'll stop right now.

:freak: What's the Chinese translation for "just drop it!"?

Just to go sideways a bit, the most disconcerting example of English to English dubbing that comes mind is in the very last episode of "The Twilight Zone" entitled "The Bewitchin' Pool". The episode stars Mary Badham, who played Scout in "To Kill a Mockingbird". The bulk of the show uses the young actress' real voice but the opening and closing scenes were filmed at a real outdoor pool behind a stately mansion and apparently that audio was unuseable due to traffic noise or whatever. For some reason, none of the actual actors from the show were brought back to dub those scenes and voice actress June Foray was hired to perform Ms. Badham's dialogue. It's an absolutely horrible match - and is made even more disconcerting by the fact that the voice coming out of Ms. Badham's mouth is shockingly familiar. June Foray is most famous for providing Rocky's voice in "The Adventures of Rocky & Bullwinkle" - and it's that voice that's coming out of Ms. Badham's mouth. It gives that whole episode an unintended bizarre quality. Also - and I've never been able to confirm this but I know it is true - the next time you watch Brian De Palma's "Scarface", pay close attention to the interrogation scene of Tony Montana at the beginning of the movie. For some reason, they dubbed Charles Durning's voice over that of the agent who is grilling Montana. I don't know why this was done, but it's definitely Durning's voice.

You can enjoy it plenty. Just put a little effort into it. Either you're saying that "I'm dyslexic" or "I'm too lazy". It's one or the other.

Neither, I was just stating a preference, without being an effete ass.

There's nothing to prefer. One is right, one is wrong. . The creative staff is always right, and if they didn't make the movie in English, it shouldn't be in English. Period. Subtitles are the least layer between the foreign language viewer and the original product, so therefore are closest by default. Period, end of story.

I prefer to walk into a bank and leave with all the money. But I don't, because it's wrong. Same thing, it just doesn't seem as major because no one is made financially destitute as a result.

I am in support of your position, Whedon, but there is something that throws a monkey wrench into this. Italian movies. Traditionally, the Italians will shoot without sound and dub in everything afterwards. So in a film like THE GOOD, THE BAD, AND THE UGLY, you have the main characters (Americans) speaking English, while supporting actors were speaking Italian or Spanish during filming. After the film was edited, English-speaking actors came in and dubbed the English version, Italian actors dubbed the Italian version, French actors dubbed the French version, etc. So which is the definitive version? The English one since that's what the lead actors were speaking? The Italian one since that is what the director was? Or perhaps an amalgram that reflects the various languages spoken on the set?

The definative version is the version that the creators intended. Whatever their main target product is, which if memory serves was English as the primary release

Hong Kong didn't shoot sync sound unitl the last 10 years or so, but the target language was almost always Cantonese(Jackie Chan has started shooting all of his movies in english)

Subtitles are ofthen wrong as well, I watched the original DVD of City on Fire about a half dozen times before I realized that when a cop gave a description of a guy in "park sunglasses" he meant "dark sunglasses". Till then I assumed "park sunglasses" were either the HK equivalent of Raybans or sunglasses you wore at a park.

So much for "artistic intent".

Subtitles are ofthen wrong as well, I watched the original DVD of City on Fire about a half dozen times before I realized that when a cop gave a description of a guy in "park sunglasses" he meant "dark sunglasses". Till then I assumed "park sunglasses" were either the HK equivalent of Raybans or sunglasses you wore at a park.

So much for "artistic intent".


Irrelevant. The entire film is still there in its untouched form, and there is no excuse for sloppyness on the part of the transcriber (who is the one who made the mistake when creating the subs from the script). Given that dub scripts are virtually always based off of the sub script, (except when some overzealous ass decided to "make it his own" by making an entirely new movie in the dialog) that would still end up being more wrong due to the necessity of the mouths matching words.

Which brings us to the issue of editing. Virtually all dubbed Asian movies have been butchered in some way or another. I just laid out $50 for the Japanese Shall we Dance? (original, not Gere) DVD to get the 20min Harvey Scissorhands decided I didn't need to see.

I think it's hilarious that two guys are having a spirited debate about dubbing and one says, "Don't put words in my mouth."

Have I ever mentioned how much I hated The Village?

:lol:

...and I think it's hilarious he's worried about American waiters dubbing lines originally performed by Chinese waiters.

:lol:

Well, you got to remember us normal folk aren't getting the inside dope from Richard, Dirk, or Joss.

I watch MXC when I want to watch something dubbed. ;)

I watch MXC when I want to watch something dubbed. ;)

Well, Hell yeah!!!! that show's hilarious!!

This is not the type of movie I would normally go see in the theater - or even rent for that matter. The last "martial arts" movie I actually saw by choice was probably "Enter The Dragon" back in the 70s and I really know nothing about the whole "chop-socky" genre of the last two decades. But I had a couple of hours to kill tonight and had read a couple of good reviews from reliable sources so decided to give it a try. First of all, I would just like to say that this "Kung Fu Hustle" is a Movie with a capital "M". Director/star Stephen Chow has a great visual style and he really knows how to use all the craft and artistry of movie-making to tell a story in a very cinematic way - and he references everything from musicals to cartoons to spaghetti westerns to horror movies - there's even a visual tribute to "The Shining" in there. And the physical comedy is both astounding and funny as hell. Cross Tex Avery and Chuck Jones with Bruce Lee, Quentin Tarentino, and not a little bit of Jerry Lewis and you'll have some sense of the "style" of this movie. It's rated R for graphic violence but the violence is extremely cartoonish - think Wylie Cyote if he were made of real flesh, blood, bones and viscera. I was entertained and just sort of thrilled in parts by the pure inventiveness of this movie and found myself laughing out loud throughout the film - something that very rarely happens. If you've thought about seeing "Kung Fu Hustle" but are on the fence - I say - go see it.

Finally grabbed this DVD on sale, I was surprised how much I enjoyed it. Seriously funny movie!

Subtitles are ofthen wrong as well, I watched the original DVD of City on Fire about a half dozen times before I realized that when a cop gave a description of a guy in "park sunglasses" he meant "dark sunglasses". Till then I assumed "park sunglasses" were either the HK equivalent of Raybans or sunglasses you wore at a park.

So much for "artistic intent".You should try living here. If you don't laugh, you'll pull your hair out!

. . . I watched the original DVD of City on Fire about a half dozen times before I realized that when a cop gave a description of a guy in "park sunglasses" he meant "dark sunglasses".That must have been a simple typographical error. When I spent some time in Israel, all the movies there were subtitled in two languages, usually Hebrew and French for movies made in English. (Don't ask me why French.) Knowing little French and even less Hebrew, I still managed to spot some major gaffes in translation: In Dr. Strangelove, Capt. Mandrake's "gammy leg" became an "artificial leg"; in Sunset Boulevard, William Holden's description of Gloria Swanson's bed as a "huge gilded rowboat" became "robot"!

All the same, I find subtitles vastly preferable to dubbing, except for Japanese monster flicks and old Italian sword-and-sandal epics (the performances of Steve Reeves and Mickey Hargitay may actually have been improved by dubbing).

Finally grabbed this DVD on sale, I was surprised how much I enjoyed it. Seriously funny movie!
Yeah, I saw this while in Baghdad earlier this year and was pleasantly surprised. Very fun ride! :thumbsup:

I lived on Okinawa back in the mid-1960's. Lost in Space was available dubbed in Japanese on the local TV station. You could turn down the sound on the TV and listen to the original English soundtrack on Armed Forces Radio. It really added to the campiness of the show to just listen to the dubbed Japanese! Even though I couldn't understand the words, I could usually understand the context, and the voices were so mismatched to the characters that it was a real hoot!

I have been able to "participate" in two movies that were originally in another language but which had a live orchestra and chorus performing along with a projection of the film. One is "Alexander Nevsky," arguably one of the greatest propaganda films of all time. The original Prokofiev soundtrack had been reconstructed, and the National Symphony played the music live with the film projected on the big screen. It was a real thrill to sing the Russian words while the Battle on the Ice was going on behind us on screen! We did this show several times at Wolf Trap. Incidentally, they used subtitles for the Russian.

The second film was Carl Theodor Dreyer's 1928 silent film of Joan of Arc. For this performance, composer Richard Einhorn envisioned a completely new work, "Voices of Light", which parallels the action on the screen. We performed this with the National Symphony at the Kennedy Center, and it was a very moving experience. Since it was a silent film, there was not much that could be added via subtitles.

If a film is powerfully conceived and executed, the words are almost secondary (viz "2001"). For adaptations of dramatic works that were conceived for the stage, then I think the text becomes much more critical, and a good translation is essential. No matter how good the translation, though, you'll never pick up all the subtleties of the original text.

And re Kung Fu Hustle - it was one of my favorite movies this decade!! LOVED the old woman!!!!

this week I was flipping channels and saw some cartoon show here the hero was fighting an old man and woman who were martial arts experts. I immediately thought of Kung Fu Hustle.

It is a comedy, but it was never advertised very clearly. I didn't know what to expect and I think that hurt sales.

I have been able to "participate" in two movies that were originally in another language but which had a live orchestra and chorus performing along with a projection of the film. One is "Alexander Nevsky," arguably one of the greatest propaganda films of all time. The original Prokofiev soundtrack had been reconstructed, and the National Symphony played the music live with the film projected on the big screen. It was a real thrill to sing the Russian words while the Battle on the Ice was going on behind us on screen! We did this show several times at Wolf Trap. Incidentally, they used subtitles for the Russian.

The second film was Carl Theodor Dreyer's 1928 silent film of Joan of Arc. For this performance, composer Richard Einhorn envisioned a completely new work, "Voices of Light", which parallels the action on the screen. We performed this with the National Symphony at the Kennedy Center, and it was a very moving experience. Since it was a silent film, there was not much that could be added via subtitles.

I just saw both of these on TV this year and loved them both. I'm impressed with your resume. Obviously you are a true artiste, some of whom actually do build models! (I was prompted to break out my Lindberg "Jeanne D"Arc" while watching the Dreyer.)

There is a DVD of the Jeanne d'Arc available with "Voices of Light." There was a VHS videotape of Nevsky with the updated orchestral soundtrack (on RCA/BMG), but that version never made it to DVD and it's out of print now.

^ I believe this "joan" version with the Voices of Light soundtrack was the one broadcast on TCM and I taped it. I could double-check, but I'm almost 100% positive that it's on there. So if you're on that soundtrack, your performance is in my collection. I'll have to get you to autograph the VHS tape box. :)

I'm afraid I wasn't on the recording. They've been doing it as a "concert work" (movie plus live music) and I was in a performance in DC about 5 years ago.

^ Sorry, I got carried away. Unlike me!