As promised elsewhere I am starting a thread to discuss why turnouts are low and what we can do to bring back the budget racers. This is thread for opinions and ideas. Everyone has a right to theres so please if we could all be respectful that would be great.

I realize or after this last couple days have come to realize that some in this hobby feel it isn't for people on budget, be it because they are lower income or, unlike the rest of us, have their priorities straight ;) I feel this couldn't be farther from the truth. When I started racing the track had many guys who walked in with all their gear in an old fishing tackle box, a deep cycle boat battery and a car. These were the days when the oval tracks had 40-50 cars on a weekly basis. Where have these folks gone? Now the only thing you see is pit towels with 3 turbo 35's, 20 battery packs, 2 cars and 10 motors. This in itself isn't bad. I have plent of gear myself. What is bad is that there are only 10 racers at the track.

There also seems to be this myth that what you spend dictates whether or not you are a good racer or serious about the hobby. I feel this couldn't be farther from the truth. I have seen many extremely good racers who have very little gear. I have also seen even more guys with tens of thousands in gear that could not get out of their own way on the track. Personally, I did the math last night and I only spent, not counting gas and race fees, about $400 dollars to race the entire winter. My tally atually came to less but I'm sure I forgot about some small ticket items so I though some more on the total. I'm not saying by any means I am a great racer. Far from it, but I do manage to compete most of the time.

Anyway I have some ideas for how to keep low budget guys in this hobby and how to bring more back so we can get back to the "glory" days so to speak. Or at the very least keep this great hobby alive. I need to think through my ideas before I post because I don't want to get flamed too much.

In the mean time I think it would benefit us all to hear from some of the lower budget guys. Let us know what could be done to keep you in the hobby and make it more fun for you. Also, if there is anyone on here who has walked away from this hobby it would be good to hear why and what the rest of us could have done to keep you in the sport or help you in some way.

Again I hope this is worthwhile and that people care. I know I do so please be friendly and lets work together to stay positive.

i agree we need to do more to get and keep racers in the sport. and to keep it as competitive as possible espesially at the club or local track levels.

i think rc in general is starting to drop off.. i think most people run offroad, and back yard bashing as well... sedan sems to be slowing, and oval seems to be the same.. the problem with oval being the same is , the crowd is small , and remains small...

we need a rtr oval kit , that is competitive, and not to expensive... Most people see a 350 dollar tag on a rolling chassis, and go yikes... they dont understand its hopped up... then people try to sell them a spec type, or legends car... these are great fun classes, but there is not transition to real pan cars.. we need to get them in a position to make the transfer, and not go to the back of the pack.. you can get a sport type sedan for 150-200 bucks. you cant even buy a cometitiive rolling chassis for under 225 without hopups... oval is expensive, and always has been.. people think they need to have the best stuff to compete on top, and it scares them away...

hobby shop owners as well, need to help get people into it without trying to sell them the best of everything.. it all starts at the showcase at the hobbyshop.. thats where interest is sparked.. most tracks run sedans and oval. or offroad.. sedan and offroad seems to be the biggest sellers... here is why.. when im at the lhs and someone walks in they say. Hi i want to get into rc.. the first thing they get shown is an offroad car.. .. because you can use it in the back yard.. then they are shwon sedans... very rarely do i ever see oval even mentioned...

I think R/C is stronger than ever its just alot more diverse now than 10 years ago. Now days there are more choices than there ever have been - 1/18 scale monster trucks and touring cars, 1/10 scale touring cars gas and elec., 1/8 scale trucks gas and elec., 1/10 scale gas offroad truck and buggy.
There are things that could bring new/young people into oval racing. Track owners could run oval and mini t's one the same day to get more exposure for oval racing. Of course us oval heads would have to give up some track time for that exposure. We all need to take the time to help other guys at the track who are struggling, so they don't give up in frustration, not easy but rewarding.
I know of some track owners that are considering having test and tune days. Where experienced racers are onhand to help people with car setup and driving, kind of a school, I hope it happens.
Good positive thread Pat.
Doug p

I just stated racing again and spent about 2 grand getting started
2 new car cars KSG, terminator dirtoval. Building an asphalt EDM
Only bought 2 refurbished g-10s and 112 charger work great.
I have only bought 2 new 4-cell packs, discharger, soldering iron.
4 stock motors and various parts and tires. Everything else was bought used from friendly racers.
Working on motors is a pain!!!!!!! Used to do the dyno thing years ago.
I have talked to a lot of guys coming back into it. The # 1 complaint is motors #2 is the battery wars coming up.
how about handout motors same spring , brush set up. Limit Rollout
Limit bateries to 3300.
my life is different know raising my son is priority.
The brushless set seems awesome. Imagine never having to take the motor our. Everyone is just as fast as you!!!! So driving skills are a major factor.
I would love it. Working on the chassis and set up is fun.
Talked to alot of people about it. The really fast guys really like working on the motors, Great for them but the average guy coming back or just starting it is a lot to handle
So lets here from you Oval racers and track owners!!!

This could be a GREAT tread if we treat it right and present good ideas. The idea of concentrating on “average Joe hobby racing” is well worth the time it takes post a few good ideas. I don’t know that I have a lot of good ones to offer but here goes.



This turned out a bit long so just scan and read what interest you LOL……………



It’s a MYTH that you have to break the bank to enjoy this hobby; I know that from first had experience. However, bear in mind that I said, “enjoy this hobby”, not be Nationally ranked competitive. That DOES take money.

I started racing years ago with that “car battery”, an RC-10 and not even a tackle box because I didn’t have (or need) that many tools AND I HAD FUN. This weekend, three of us went on a road trip to a track that was 6 hours away and we FILLED UP the back of a van with all the stuff we take. NEW PEOPLE DO NOT NEED TO SEE THAT, it scares them off.

We, as experienced racers, have a responsibility to the hobby we love not to “over do it” when we race at our local track. Don’t scare off the new people by bringing ten times more “stuff” to the track then you need to race with just because you want to “show off” what you have. I am as much at fault at that as anyone, because I pack “one way” whether it’s a road trip or a trip to the local track. But why bring 20 battery packs with you if it will only take 5 or 6 to race? Build your motors AT HOME and just bring the ones you are going to race, not all thirty that you have!

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This one is not going to settle well with some but LEAVE THE DYNO’S AND MOTOR ZAPPERS AT HOME TOO. What would YOU have thought the first time you saw this stuff if you thought you needed all that to race? Build and zap your stuff AT HOME and just bring what you need for that day. The point is, bring what you need to race well but don’t scare of new racers or budget racer from your local track by making them think they can’t enjoy our hobby by not having all of it.

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Buy the parts you need to race AT THE HOBBY SHOP and show the new guys that they don’t have to mail order everything. The hobby shop can’t stay in business that way and NONE of us will end up with a racetrack to race on.

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Most important of all is KEEP THE LOCAL RACING SIMPLE! There can never be one class that suits everyone but at the same time, we don’t need 10 different classes that will. Somewhere along the line, someone is going to have to adjust to the classes they are offered or move up to the one that suites him better. Not “create another class” just to suit him

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Budget racers, can’t run modified….period. So don’t encourage it. Some type of Spec racing would be better for them. You don’t have to follow the rules to the letter, but keep them on cheap batteries and cheap motors BUT STILL ALLOW THEM TO TINKER! After all, isn’t that what YOU still like to do? The more a budget racer can do to “tinker” with his stuff and not have to buy new stuff because “it’s the rule” the more fun he will have and the more he will learn. So, let him race in a class that will allow him to do that and still be competitive. No one likes to lose EVERY week. This is still a “hobby” ya know. This is a pretty basic statement but if you read into it you will see that it’s true……you can’t learn how to win, until you learn how to “tinker”.

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Have “clinics” to teach the budget racer how to: build a diff, build and tune a front end, take proper care of his motors and batteries, chassis tuning and setup tricks. These are the “tinkering” things we all still enjoy but someone had to show “us” the first time too. What’s the proverb? Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime!

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Remember, just as the older racers showed us some “tricks” and helped us get our hobby going, we in turn now have the opportunity and “responsibility” to “return the favor” because “we” are now the older racers. Take the time to help the new racers get started and show him that this is a fun thing to do and it’s not all about winning and spending money. Sure, it may take time away from your racing for that day but you may end up with a friend and fellow racer that will add to the enjoyment of your hobby for life.

This awesome guys. Thanks. Lots to think about and comment on. Very cool. Mclin it looks like you have plenty of ideas to me! :) I didn't read them yet though, because if I get too much in my head I'll forget something.

Mike,
I agree 100%. I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily that hobby shop people push buggies as a way to start. I think it's valuable for a guy to be able to learn in his driveway and at the offroad track. That was how I started and I am happy I did. I see lots of people who jump right into 4 cell stock oval and get quite frustrated and quit. That is always too bad because I know if they had had a better chance they would have loved the hobby. Please no one take my next comment as a slam against 4 cell, because I think 4 cell has done some really good things for oval. The one downside to it though is that it sets us apart from the rest of the hobby. This makes it really tough for a kid who starts with a buggy to switch over to oval. I'm not sure how to combat this, but I think it hurts us from the aspect of getting new racers.

Mr. Fastman,
Thank you. I think you are right about the hobby being more diverce. I'm not sure if we have more racers overall, kinda hard to quantify. You are right though that the gas thing, across all classes, is getting very big. Back in the day the thing that always hurt gas was the darn flameouts. The motors seem to have gotten a lot more reliable and I think that is why it is growing so much. Plus even the el cheapo motors have more power than almost all but the best guys can use. I think this helps eleiminate the HP wars, or percieved hp wars, we have in electric. Your idea about test and tune days was one I had as well. I was thinking of taking it a step further which I'll elaborate on in its own post.

X-man,
I'm glad you're back in the hobby! I was off for about 3 years while I was in school myself. You're right, I can tell you from first hand experience the brushless thing kicks butt. I hope it is offered near you. If not maybe you could get others interested?

Alright. All this being said it's time to read through your post Lin.

Lin this isn't too exciting but I agree with you about 97% :) Darn no real controversy.

Well there is the 3% where I differ. When you mentioned buy at the local hobby shop, I do agree but not fully. I don't think people should buy from the huge mailorder wharehouse that shall go unnamed. But, I do think we should support people like Bruce at RC4LESS and Hays at Lefthander. These guys really care about oval and do a ton to support it. Personally what I try to do is spread my money around and throw everyone, who I feel supports oval, a bone so to speak. When at the track I wll almost always buy things such as gears, motor spray, traction compound from the track. The essentials I guess. I do tend to go to the mail order oval guys I mentioned above for bigger ticket items because I am on a budget and it really help to save a few bucks on tires and batts. Also, I try to go to a Local Hobby shop in town and buy things because they support oval despite the fact that we only have like 4 oval racers left in Madison. Basically I try to spread out my dollars and support all who I think support oval. I know this isn't possible to do everywhere, but I try.

So one of my ideas which I mentioned briefly above is an elaboration on Fastman's test and tune idea.

I think a lot of tracks have a "busch" class or something similar. Basically the same as stock but no wings and no body cutouts. I believe others use this same premise as a breakout class or with other rule tweaks. Anyway, I think it'd be a good idea to have a special race day for these guys. No other classes running. Dave J. did this this winter at West Bend. What I would like to see at this race day is a veteran guy paired up with one of the "busch" guys for the whole day. A race team of sorts. The veteran gives help through out the day to his Busch driver.. Show the person how to build a shock, a diff, etc. like Lin mentioned. When the heats and mains are going the veterans can stand on the stand with the new guy and give advice. If the person feels comfortable with it. Also, what I'd like to see is the veteran bring a couple good motors and batt packs for the Busch person to try out in practice. I think this would help these guys see that really good batts and motors are not what makes the fast guys fast. I think this could really do wonders for a lot people. Also, it's a great opportunity to make new friends as well as help the new guys see that the veterans are approachable. This way they'll feel comfortable asking for help in the future.

Hopefully no incentive would be required for veteran guys to sign up to do this, but if there is maybe the track owner could offer a free race fee or something.

I think one manufacturer should produce a "spec" car with all the basics of the "hi-tech" cars we run. Use just a t-plate with tweak screws and a dampning rod with associated front end. Use a specific motor, unmatched assembled packs.
I started racing in 1991 with a BOLINK SPORT, stick pack of batts. The most fun I ever had. Beat'n and bang'n with my buddies, not really having to worry about breaking parts, axle was steel I believe....lol.......
I believe if this plan was implemented nationwide, "newbies" would come, and they could bump up to the "faster" classes at their own will.
You could make it like a IROC class, same body types, same chassis, etc.
And yes, one manufacturer would benefit from this the most since it would be their car being ran, but I think whoever steps up and does it, should reap the rewards for trying to save this hobby and bring newcomers to it.

Just my opinion......

Good idea on the spec car dj and Mike. I've thought of designing something like that for awhile. It'd be a pretty simple job. The thing would be getting someone to step up and bankroll it. It's kind of a chicken or the egg type predicament. No one wants to step up and do something like this because we don't enough racers, but one of the reasons we don't have enough racers is that no one steps up and does something like this. Tough problem to solve.

Could a possible answer be getting Associated to rerelease the 10L2 with new packaging and marketing. They could package it with everything you need to get going. Get a body manufacturer to do a chevy, ford and dodge body for it. Then offer the kits in 3 versions with each body. Since Associated manufacturers everything that you need to get a car rolling other than the radio it seems they could price the car well. Not to mention they'd certainly reap a lot of benefits by having oval take off again. If there are AE people on here or people with AE connections could you check into something like this?

Do you think that going with a special chassis and body may be moving in the wrong direction? What I am thinking is, if a newbie or budget racer has to shell out for a “certain chassis” and “certain body” that they will have to either REALLY up grade or completely replace in the future, then is it in their true interest?

Why not simply help them line up good “used” equipment that your local racers want to sell in the first place and everybody wins. These racers don’t need a lot of “got to run this or that” rules right now it makes it too expensive for them. There will be plenty of time for that stuff in the future if they really get hooked.

Yeah that's true Lin. I guess I'm not really sure. I can see it both ways. One thing though is used equipment is not always available and if the person is completely new to racing there has to be someone to help them purchase the used gear to make sure they are getting the right stuff. If it was all just in a box at the hobby shop that would take some guess work out. If it was something like an L2 car just repacked I don't see any reason why they couldn't jump to regular stock after getting experience. No that car won't be winning the nationals by any means but I think it will compete at the skill level a new racer would be at. I don't think I would include special batteries in the kit. Just lower end regular matched packs. Maybe they could be assembled depending on the added labor cost. I thnk giving the class it's own motor would be good as buying a motor to move up isn't really a big expense. Could Associated include a lower cost slowed down version of their new brushless system? That would be really cool, in my opinion.

Anyway the whole idea is a bit crazy because I don't see it happening anytime soon or probably at all. So for the mean time the only real solution is helping new racers find the right used stuff as you said Lin.

Exposure is where oval racing is missing the boat IMHO.Back when I started racing competively in 1987 I saw these little cars running around at a car show.I had played with RC stuff throught the late 70's and early 80's.I never knew there was any organized racing.The guy that ran the local track and was an employee of the LHS really promoted the hobby.Races at car shows and local picnics.A booth at the county fair every year.This is how the tracks picked up racers.Not many people started driving a purpose built on-road car i.e. 12th scale,we had class for everything and a catch all novice class that was run what you brung.We brought in 60-80 racers on a Tuesday night in a town of 400 people.Almost everyone lived within an hour of the track.

I realise that nowadays there are way more leisure activities to chose from but NASCAR is the second most popular sport in the US surely there must be a way to bring in some of the folks that watch NASCAR.A track onwer or a club that is willing to promote can do well in my opinion.

1) exposure-set up a booth at the local short track or put flyers on the cars in the parking lot there.Run some races in the parking lot at the local Walmart.I see lots of people in there with NASCAR stuff all over there cars and plenty of people walking around with a black 3 on their shirts.

2) some kind of beginner class-why not offer a run what you brung class touring cars,buggies,trucks-in the old days we only had 10-15 people that ran in the competetive classes less than we actully have now.

3) cub scout girl scouts boy scout day at the local track-let the local groups come out and drive the cars around the track.Most track have enough experienced racers with old equipment that could be used for this.Just the prospect of getting more racers in the door should be enough incentive for the veterns to help with this,I would hope.

4) Mr fastman and psimkins your right on with the idea to pair a vet with a newbie.I personally try to help several racers in the area as much as I can from giving away parts that I pay for out of my own pocket-I do this all the time. to going to the track without my stuff to help out someone-I did this twice last summer on Tuesday nights when I couldn't race myself.I was suprised it was as gratifing to get someone else up to speed as it is to do well myself.

5) bring a friend to the track-If everybody that raced brought 1 friend to the track and let them race it would double the the amount of people at the track.Almost all of us that a serios have more than 1 car,why not let a friend drive it once in a while,it might get them hooked.

6) one for the track owners-put aside a time for the new people to practice on race days.They don't learn anything getting punted out of the way by the fast guys.That was one area that really changed from the first couple of years I raced-the lack of controlled pratice.

7) another one for the hobby shops/tracks-why not a race to own program.The hobby shop could keep the equiptment until a certian number of race days are run at which time the racer could take his equiptment home.Have a time set aside for the guys to come in and work on the cars and learn to maintain them properly.Maybe offer a RTR touring car with an oval body.I'm not a business genious but I'm sure that a good shop owner could figure out a way to make it work.

I'll offer this to anyone that races at the Triclone this summer I'm always available to help out with your car.I may look busy and and absorbed in my own car but I will always try to help out anyone who asks.The same goes for all the regulars there.

I like the idea of this thread, I have been in the hobby for about 17 years long before 10th scale even started. As far as the "spec" idea I do think their needs to be a class but I would like to see the hobby shops limit things like tires,motors, and batteries. I think people should be allowed to use any car they want, I know people are going to argue about price but to me it is more depressing to get into the hobby in a spec car only to find out that you need to throw the car away to be compettive when you move up a class.
As far as no wing rules that does not make sense to me because these cars are difficult enough to drive so why would you want to make life more difficult for a new person. Sorry for the long winded post but this is a idea that I have had for a long time. As far as the overall cost problem with the hobby no one ever talks about the amount of money they spend on tires. We complain about motors and batteries, but i know I spend more money on tires in a season then everything else combined. Thanks Mike

One track owner I know (George Verbonitz, Willow Mill) has a beginners class and provides chargers and batteries. There are 10 chargers all on one table and the batts are 1700's which belong to the track.

I like the idea of an entry level kit, it would be best if it was something that could be upgraded instead of replaced as skill level increases.

Tires do consume some cash. I know BSR offers a spec tire in several compounds, that would save a few bucks.

Doug P

I *love* the idea of having a day that is set aside for "Busch" and "Stock" drivers only, with some sort of incentive for the regular guys to mentor each person in those classes. I say Stock because a lot of new drivers like to go straight into stock and bypass Busch, whether they can handle it or not. And I say help from regular guys, it doesnt need to be the A-main winner Fast guy that has to help. It would be great to see the big names out helping, but at the same time, a lot of the regulars are fast as well, and there is a lot to learn from them.
I also agree with everything in Bob W.'s post. I remember going to the Sheboygan County Fair and seeing the buggies run ina small 50'x50' track. It was the highlight of my trip! I think the idea of running some races in a Walmart parking lot would grab TONS of attention! Not only that, but have all racers line the pit areas in a row, and not allow large boxes on the table. Most spectators that are interested LOVE to see what we do, how we do it and love to look at the parts and pieces. Keep it open and visible for anyone to easily walk by and look, or stop and ask questions. Have flyers available with local race tracks, and with some cooperations from LHS owners, put dates on the "open" race dates for new people to learn.
Also as mentioned already, get out to the local race tracks and get some exposure. I also would love the thought of running some small races at the local NASCAR races (Chicago in my case.) However I know there would be issues with licensing and the "RC Expierence" offered by my employer at each race.
Another thing I notice is a lack of advertising for any level of event. Our recent Nationals in 2003, had just about NO advertising. There are mulitple reasons for this Im sure, along with other factors. However, I think it would be beneficial to get some radio spots or newspaper adv. out there.

I think there are very many good ideas, and I for one would love to see them given a chance. Itd be great to have some local track owners open and spend some effort (be it time or money) and see what can happen.

Just my $.02


Neil Hicks
Hurricane Motorsports

The ideas about promotion are definately great. I know the club in Madison used to always do several events at community functions as well as racing parking lot at two local malls during the summer. It seems as though promotion like this has gone the way of the dinosaur. My theory on why is that the idea of a club seems to have gone away. It seemed like when I started many tracks were not for profit clubs. This seems to have died off unfortunately. I think the advantage as far as promotion was that you could tell organizers of events that you are a not for profit organization. I think event organizers are generally more than willing to give a good not for profit some space. Now that everything seems to be run by for profit tracks and hobby shops when you come to them with a proposal to hold a race they see dollar signs. I know of several promotional event races that went away because the venues realized money was being made and they decided they wanted a very big piece of it. this being the case I guess we need some hobby shop and track owners willing to invest some money in the future of the hobby. I think it could pay back for them many times over. Also, I wouldn't have any problem if they passed some cost down to us by charging some more for a promotional race of some type.

I think those who mentioned the expense of tires are correct. I know that tires or foam tires to be specific are by a wide margin my biggest expense. Batteries are pricey initially but when dead shorted for stock/19t racing they seem to last a long long time.

This would be tough to implement nationally, but why couldn't we run a spec tire in stock? In my area, Wisconsin, there are a fair number of tracks that all work together pretty well. Could we as racers get together and set a spec tire to be used, in stock, at all these tracks? Along with lowering costs I think this would take a lot of guess work out for new racers. The tires would not have to be the actual "spec" tires sold by BSR or Jaco. They could be whites and grays or whites and blacks or whatever. If we got together and somehow voted on what's best and just stuck with that, that would be fine. Unfortunately I can already envision how doing something like this would ruffle feathers, but I think in the long run it could be good. Also, I think if we picked some type of white/gray or white/black combo racers could still travel outside of our little 5 track area and make those tires work. There are some tracks where you do really need something different, but not all that many.

I've seen some good info...but in a rare case I have to disagree w/ McLin on this one:

...Budget racers, can’t run modified….period. So don’t encourage it. Some type of Spec racing would be better for them. You don’t have to follow the rules to the letter, but keep them on cheap batteries and cheap motors ...

During the past 10 years of racing, and the past 5 of which I've been the race director/promoter, the class that is/has been the strongest and mostly made up of guys on NO budget is called "Sportsman Modified" This is probably the CHEAPEST class racing and is mostly self policed by the group of guys running the class. Every once in a while someone "High Budget" racer joins in with them and blows them out of the water for a few races, and some of the "EXPERT" racers make comments like "These guys are their own worst enemies" cause the cars they drive are OUT of CONTROL most of the time.

That being said, RUN STOCK, SPEC, or even 19t, and to run FAST and Be up front...you better know how to build a TOP NOTCH motor and be a heck of a chassis tuner. To RUN Sportsman Mod...STRAP IN SOME SPEED and smack the wall a few times... SPEED IS ALMOST NEVER an ISSUE, and w/ the current batteries..NEITHER is RUN TIME. These guys race for FUN , NOT FOR NATIONAL TITLES~

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Other things to get guys in...

A) Get them in with either a GOOD USED Car, some GOOD USED Batteries, a few GOOD USED MOTORS. (There are plenty of GOOD deals right here on HobbyTalks Swap n Sell, not to mention guys at most local tracks)

B) Never tell a NEWBIE he/she has to have the NEW HYPERDRIVE, KSG , CUSTOM WORKS, Etc. car that is truely a "RACE CAR" Encourage them to get into a less expensive car, learn to drive, learn set up, then when they are READY..step up to something HiTECH~

C) WORK with them, TEACH them what Tweak is, what spring changes do, what different Tire Compounds Do.

D) Encourage them to use the cheaper tires (Spec tires work great on sooo many tracks and are more affordable) Yes, they may not be the NATIONAL WINNING combo, but these are NEWBIES looking to have some fun...YOU have to get them IN before you can KEEP them.

E) Don't scare them OFF w/ technology. Don't make them feel if they don't have a DYNO, TIRE TRUER, Top Notch Charger, etc. they can't enjoy them selves.

F)When ever possible, have classes aimed at Newbies/Rookies/etc. Have a discounted entry fee for these classes. ie: 1/2 price entry or something similar.

(Note to McLin: The MODIFIED deal was about the ONLY thing I saw that I disagreed with and that is because we are talking about BUDGET racers and not NEWBIES or ROOKIES. I myself cut my motor and expense bill down several hundred bucks a year by NOT having to buy 10 - 12 new motors per year.

As usual you have good and sometimes great ideas. Keep it up~)

Somebody mentioned the market not having a beginner type pan car.....Doesn't Trinity Offer a T-spec oval car relatively cheap?
If not, If a track wanted to start up a newbie class and keep it cheap maybe they could contact Associated and see if they could buy some L3O's cheap. Then allow no hopups to it for the class, pick spec tires, springs that would work and only allow them.
Make them use a spec motor, 27T or even a closed endbell 540 motor. The same body. and so forth.

I haven't read through this whole thread so not sure if this has been mentioned. But call your local newspaper and have them come out and do a story on the track.
If people do not know about R/C racing and local R/C tracks then you will never get new people involved in the hobby.

I have been running pan car for about 5 years now at Classic Hobbies.
It seemed the year I started we had many new guys showing up to the track.
Local shows were about 60 cars. Each year attendance has dropped to about 30 guys weekly this year. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

The Akron Beacon Journal Newspaper came out in Dec/Jan for 3 weeks of Saturday night racing and did a story on the track. In February they added their piece to the community section of the newspaper. Discussed the history of the track, location, prices, pics of the track and some of the racers, with little blurbs below them.

Low and behold we now have a novice class again with some youngsters.
Who knows one of them could be the 2015 ROAR national champion.
I know I got involved in R/C because my buddies did it. So who knows, maybe these young guys will tell thier buddies and maybe even more will show next carpet season.

Lots of different points of view, that's good.

In the last 18 years of owning or operating an RC track it goes through ups and downs. Since we are on the OVAL thread that's what I'll concentrate on.

We've tried breakout classes. They work great! There are no rules on motors, batteries, tires, etc... Set a reasonable lap time that isn't too easy or too difficult to achieve and any lap below that doesn't count. On our old indoor track this was the biggest and best class we had. Cost was very low, as you could find a decent used car cheap and often use cast offs from the guys in the higher classes. Their old tires would last you months and their old motors and batteries, the same. On our new track which is now going on 8 years old, breakout didn't take off. Ran a few races which were interesting but just couldn't dredge up enough interest from those on the sidelines to keep it going.

SPEC racing, yes this is possible and very popular. There are different ways to approach it but the simplest is to not limit the chassis to one of the "spec" chassis. This way as a driver's skill improves he can move up with little expense. The way we had it at one time was a 4-cell spec class with spec tires, that progressed into a 4-cell class with 3300 pack and the same motor and tires as 4-cell, then next was 6-cell spec batteries and spec motor but open tires. Each class was a little faster than the one before and had very subtile changes so cost to move up wasn't monumental.

Advertising: Probably the biggest waste of money. We've had TV, radio, newspaper, Even were featured on TNN once. Lot's of money invested for very little return. Usually because the ads for example on radio go by so fast that most people don't catch what your'e trying to convey in 30 seconds. Newspaper was so so, really didn't do much more than generate a few spectators. The #1 fool proof method for advertising has always been word of mouth. One guy having fun tells another who tells another and on and on. 99% of new racers I've seen have come to watch because they heard someone talking about it at work or school. They watched their buddy race and eventually they are in. #2 most effective means of advertising is the internet. A good INTERNIC registered webpage not some hotmail or yahoo or google based free website is an important tool. If they can't search and find you, you might as well not exist. A lot of times with the freebie hosting sites, they can't be found through a Google or Yahoo search. The other thing is message boards and posting race results. An active message board with useful information (not just teenage gibber jabber) and posted race results where people can see their names helps promote the racing.

An RTR for oval: Oh here's the big one. Right now Associated could do this in a heartbeat. They have all the means to do it but they need to see a market for it and obviously they haven't as of yet. We have tried promoting the use of RTR TC cars for a good entry level oval class. $250 and you're in. Years ago I bought a VICFOR Concept one as my first oval car. It came in fiberglass but offered parts in graphite so over a period of time as I wore out or broke parts I upgraded to the full competition level car. Associated or anyone else could use the same concept. Use a current competition level car but build it in cheaper fiberglass as the RTR package and offer a graphite upgrade. The mfgr. makes out, the LHS makes out and the track makes out in the end.

More later.........

My whole point on "newbie" class and spec chassis is to get away from running side shocks. At my old local hobby shop, there were tons of people who ran "lower grade" kits and loved them. They had no plans of bumping up to run with the real fast guys. They were in it for the fun.
Complication of setting up a car and "newbies" do not go together. A basic t-plate with dampning tube would be fine and fast. If the old shop was still there, I would race anyone with a 3 shock car with the basic car and you would be surprised.
And as far as trashing the car to bump up......I don't see a newbie buying a T35GFX and a $400 Futaba radio to run spec class, so to bump up, they will have to spend the money, BUT, it would be there choice. As of now, you don't have that option on car kits. It's around $315 for a kit no matter what class you run and that's ridiculous.

swtour,

I'm not sure but I think Lin may have meant to say newer racers not budget racers. We all have control of our checking accounts and credit cards so any class can be raced on any budget a person likes. Of course not every class be won on any budget.

Craig,
I think the problem with radio or tv advertising is that people need to see the ad a million times for it to be memorable enough to have any effect. No one in the RC community can afford that kind of money to run an add 250 times a day like major companies can.

I think that getting newspaper stories can be very good advertising though. What would be really great is if someone could get the paper to run the little RC article in the sports section right below the NASCAR coverage. Not to generalize to much, but I think that the Community Voice section readers and the sports section NASCAR guys don't necessarily overlap a lot. Also, does anyone know what it would cost to get the race results in the paper once a week? Usually most sports pages in the STATS section have local low round golf scores and local bowling alley scores. Why not some RC results?

Sounds like there is some support for the AE spec car thing I mentioned. I mentioned this before, but if anyone on here is from AE or has AE connections could you possible bring this up to them?

. Also, does anyone know what it would cost to get the race results in the paper once a week? Usually most sports pages in the STATS section have local low round golf scores and local bowling alley scores. Why not some RC results?

I dont think people have to pay for them to post sport's box scores. The newspaper covers it deeming it noteworthy.

So with that in mind, Convincing the newspaper that it was worthy news would be the challenge and I dont think posting R/C results would be a big draw to their newspaper. But hey it's worth a shot.

What do I see as away to keep the newbie racing? Encouragement!
All the newguys wants to do his first couple times is not cause a problem. They don't want to break there stuff or yours.

Offer to keep put there car on the track. Try to help them get in the grove and feel like they fit in at the track.

If you see them about to do something a vetrain would consider stupid (putting the car down on the track in the drive line or stopping there) try and save them from that. But if they do it try and maintain some sort of temper. Was it commen sense? to us yes, to them they are just trying to get on the track.

Encourage them that the equipment they have is not junk ( unless it really is )
Stop treating newbies as a dumping ground for all your old equipment ( unless you are giving it away) For a kid, They probably had to work and convince there parents that this is a good thing for them. Something a parent can feel good about paying for or loaning there kids money for. How long would you have stayed if after spending about 300 bucks to start and after your frist day being told you need to buy someone elses equipment for anther 200 bucks.

Become a resource for them to call, Give them your phone number or e-mail, pont them to hobbytalk.com,
Explain why you don't run your pancar in the snowcovered street and don't take it off jumps. The newbies worst enemy is there friends. they are the ones who are not going to go to the track but still want to see it go. so they get together and talk them into running it in terrible conditions. God forbid there is any wood around because you KNOW a jump will be built.

Get to know ther parents, Parents now a days need to feel really comfortable before dropping kids off anywhere. Now a days they need to feel sure about the older people at the track.

Exactly, once or twice a day on radio or TV just doesnt sink in.

As far as newspaper and race results, that depends on the size of your town. We live in a bigger city and after another nearby track owner told me his local paper was posting his results right along with the local short track 1:1 race results, I decided to give it a try. I called, they took down all the info, and told me to mail or drop off the results by Sat. 9pm. No problem. Told all the drivers in the driver's meeting that Sat. to look for their names in the sunday paper. Looked Sunday and nothing. Called monday and was told the editor had never heard of our track and toy car racing wasn't worth the time and effort to print the results. So it seems like the smaller local papers are more willing to include such silly things as "toy car" racing. Getting anything mentioned in the NASCAR part of the paper is dreaming. That's prime space. I did it once, cost $400 for a spot about the size of two business cards stacked on top of each other. Did it in the Special Daytona section even. Zero return.

The other error I see a lot of is the concentrated effort to recruit kids into racing. Kids don't stay at it long unless they have an adult racing with them, be it dad or an uncle or family friend or older sibling. Their attention span is often too short and they expect instant gratification for their efforts. That's why all the CHEAT sites for video games are so popular. But there are no CHEATS in racing so they bail. Plus mom and dad get tired of taking them to the track each week and paying for all that stuff they break. Once they get to the teen years it's cooler to hang with friends at the mall of chase girls instead of racing and they're gone.

The best target when you see a father/son or other similar thing is go for the older of the two. If dad gets hooked most likely he will bring his kid into it too. Encourage the family to get involved.

swtour, you are right in what you say. That form of modified truely is a budget way to do it and still have tons of fun. I guess in my head I was thinking of the type of Mod racing that I do and have been asked by newer racers to show them how to "go that fast''. LOL So, it was the high end modified that I was talking about.

As for them buying used equipment. A good point was made as to not selling them your "junk" stuff. That will really turn them off once they are around long enough to know what they spent their money on. The track owners could really step in here (and make a buck) if they would at least be the go between on these deals. Make sure that the used stuff is worth selling and not 20 years old or broken beyond repair.

I have read this a few times here and it bears repeating. SPEND SOME OF YOUR TIME with new racers and budget racers. They BOTH need your help and your advice when it comes to what to buy and how to make it all work.

And another good point was, show them that they really DO belong and how much fun this hobby can be. I like the "newbie race discount" too.

"Belonging" is a major issue. The guys who have the "gotta win" attitude often times don't make a lot of friends. The guys who come to race AND have fun at it, hang with and meet new friends often stick with racing a lot longer regardless of how well they finish. Helping someone feel like they are part of the "gang" is important. But know that some people are just not reachable, no matter how hard you try.

When conversations like this get started and I try to contribute something, the first thing I usually do is think back………ok, WAY BACK to when I first became interested in this hobby. What was I looking for and what ended up float’en my boat?

I was lucky because this was B.W. (Before Whippoorwill) and the major super speedway scene had not started. Because of that the local hot shoes were just that…local. They were also approachable unlike some of them today that think, “their defecation is odorless”.

And I try to remember how I felt going into a new place where I didn’t know a sole and had barely a clue as to what I was doing. To this day, I am not sure if the Track Owner “took a liking” to me or to my check book but he was always right there to help me when I ask for it. He also encouraged me to come up and practice a few times for free before I tried to go out with the other racers. Which I did and because of that, I think they took me a little more seriously and the hot shoes started offering me help. (Or they took pity on me and decided if they didn’t help I would be tearing up THEIR stuff.)

Never the less, they were there and not just telling me to go buy this or up grade that, they were saying, turn this screw or adjust this spring BECAUSE…….. Man that is a powerful word! At the same time they were joking with me and laughing with me and just making me feel at home. From that deal I made a few life long friends that I still have to this day…………Not too shabby to come out of “playing with toy cars”.

I have posted and others too that “The most important thing is…..yada, yada, yada. I will have to agree with the other ones that posted, “The most important thing we can do is to make the new people feel like they “belong”.

I know all of that had nothing to do with “budget racers” but I was just feeling all warm and fuzzy. LOL

OK all the warm and fuzzy is gone. LOL Some may not agree with this one but here it is anyway.



Along with all the stuff I just said about being a new racer, there is one other thing. These guys were not all over me either, they gave me plenty of rope to hang myself. AND THEY LET ME TINKER……THAT is the single most important thing that caught my interest and has kept it for all these years. I know there are a lot of complaints about how much we spend but where else in this world can any of us go and be able to wrench on a reasonably sophisticated race car, then go race it with some expectation of winning and do it for the price that we pay?

This is the part that some may not agree with: You can “Rule” a class to death! When this stuff gets to a point where it is hard to “tinker” then it becomes impossible to “create”. And when that happens, the newbies and budget racers might as well go play computer games because it will be a hell of a lot cheaper and they will get the same thing out of it…….BRAIN DEAD!.

LOL.....McLin, you have a way with words sir.....

Lin,
You are right on about the tinkering. When I was first starting the cars were so much less sophisticated, in a lot of ways it was better. I remember actually playing with the design of the car and it really kept me interested. I was also the kind of kid who always took dad's tools and took apart his toys to see how they worked. Could never put them back together though lol. Anyway I remember thinking hmmmm maybe the car would work better if I built something to put the batteries farther left and the right front farther right. So I drilled some holes cut some fiberglass and found out. Yeah it was better. That kind of stuff was fun. Nowadays just perish the thought of taking a drill to that new Hyperdrive or KSG.

Craig,
I think that targeting families is the key as you said. In my case it was the reverse of what you said. I bought a RC car action, found the local club and got my parents to take me to a swap meet. That's another thing, remember swap meets? Something else that went away as the club race tracks did. Anyway, I got started and then soon enough convinced my dad he wanted to play as well.

I actually do think we should target kids, or teenagers specifically. For one reason and that is money. Kids or teenagers with jobs have tons of money just waiting to be spent somewhere. We need to find a way get them to spend it at tracks and hobby stores instead of on clothes, stereos and exhausts for 92' Civics. Adults have responsibilities and bills, but a kid who makes $200 a week at his/her job has about $190 a week in disposable income. I only wish I could now afford to spend the kind of money on RC that I did in highschool.

This may go against the grain but as nice as it would be to get the young ones involved, if they don’t have the support of the parents it just won’t happen. As for the teenagers, I have given up on them LOL (Dang sounding like MY dad LOL) But they have SOOOO many things that are “way cooler” to do than race RC Cars. PLUS as soon as they get a drivers license and discover “girls” …. they are gone! Besides, on a good day, they just work off of “fads”. Here today and gone tomorrow.

No, I really think the target market is young adults. Yes they have bills and more obligations but isn’t this thread all about “budget racers”? They are the ones that are beginning to afford to do things and develop real hobbies and are more likely to stick with what they start.

Yes there are the rare young ones that will wear their pants around their waist where they should be and get involved in this stuff but I don’t really think they are the norm any more.

……………………………………………………………

As for publicity: ANY THING THAT WORKS. One single thing will not work in all areas. It’s hard sometimes for carpet racers to take their spit shined pan car that has never seen anything in its life but ozite out to a parking lot BUT we can’t keep hiding away what we do.

In its hay day, our hobby got a lot of FREE publicity by racing out in the open in a well placed parking lot. The TC’s boys still do it and look where they are!

If you still feel like the young ones are what you want to go after, go to your local high school and see if you can put on a demonstration race in their parking lot

One thing I have done to bring in a few racers to the Southwest Tour and oval is to loan racers that race off road or touring cars one of my oval cars to race. The drivers I have loaned cars to are good drivers that want to try oval racing. The only equipment they are required to bring is their own radio and reciever. The cars I have loaned out are race ready and capable of making the A-mains at most SWT races. Once these racers get a taste of oval they are usually hooked. This is one way to bring in more racers.

SKJ

I just started in oval with my 9yr old.All the people at the tracks in our area are very, very helpful. They have given us tons of batteries, tires and unlimited info. I think the biggest problem atleast in our area is the hobby shops. All they stock or want to sell is monster trucks, or off road trucks. I have a hobby store sponsoring my son, but the problem is when i need something for our car they always have to order it, never in stock. But there sure are alot of shelves full of off road and monster truck crap!!!!!

I've been racing for 12 yrs now and when I started there was a trophy race almost every weekend at a couple of different tracks in my area. There use to be point series that rewarded you with big trophies and awards. Now for the past 5 or more years, these trophy races have came once a year. I for one feel like I'm racing for nothing. Like I'm spending all kinds of money to be the best but then don't have nothing to show for it. I have more trophies from my first 3 years of racing than I've gotten all together since. My home track has a trophy race once a year in January. We average about 20 racers a week. On the day of the trophy race we had over 60. Some of the guys there run off road but brought out their oval stuff for the first time all year for this day. Another trophy race that I attended this year at a track about 2 hours away had a turn out of 107 racers. That track only sees about 20 races every week. I think more trophies or at least something would help. I think another idea would be to get some of the tracks in an area to get together and offer a racing series. I get tired of racing at the same track week after week. I like to get out and see more. Here in Indiana there was an Indiana State Championship series started this past fall that 3 tracks from across the state participated in. The turn out of people that made every race was small but it was exciting and challenging. The organizers are looking to do it again and adding more tracks. As far as kids go, first off look at the new 2005 Roar national champ. We need more kids in the sport like Chris. I was 13 when my dad bought me $400 worth to get started. He helped me get more and my brother started racing shortly after and he helped me and pushed me to go for more. I stayed with it and did good and always wanted more so I worked at it. As I got older, things (girls) distacted me but I always made time to go race. Parents sometimes will buy their kids a car or get them started and then leave them hanging. Kids that want to do this will and parents should support them to do good. If we could get back to the days of rewarding racers and help get the good word back out, I think we could make a big come back.

Z-Main don't take this as an attack but one thing I get tired of hearing from RC racers and primarily oval racers is the statement "I for one feel like I'm racing for nothing." There is no hobby that pays back anything near what is spent out for your efforts and I don't know why some RC racers feel they need to be compensated for their efforts or what they spend in the hobby shop. My son and I went to an SCCA Autocross event, guys with cars that were stock and some worth more than my house, entry fee for members was $10 and you got a total of about 5 minutes of track time. 4 runs and no practice and all they get is a trophy at the end of the points season. They like many others who participate in competitive hobbies do it for the self satisfaction not for the tangible rewards. Sure trophies or special plaques are nice and seeing your name listed in the A-main of a big race is very satisfying but it seems like when we first start racing we were in it for the fun, but once we start getting good at it then we began looking for some sort of compensation. Just gotta keep the perspective.

As far as series racing, some do well like the SW Tour and some were total bombs like the RCRA in the south east. If you get bored racing at one track it shouldn't take a series race to draw you to another track, just pack up and go or get a friend or two and plan the trip.

And again, this isn't a personal attack against you or anything you said. It's been said before.

z-main

hey whats up ?
when are you changing your name ? you did win last time you was at new castle.....


I have not read word for word every post on past pages, but i remember reading a post that said something about running for money......

an organization that paid out money instead of trophies.
I just paid $50 for entry for Roar Nats and why not throw another $25.00 on top of that and pay out per class.....

like this if one class has 10 entries then $250 would be paid out in that class
20 entries in anothers class would pay out $500

the extra money stays in the class and only pays out in that class

I would run in this organization for sure

the organization would have rules like the others, but the only difference is pays out cash or even a check instead of trophies.

like z-main said the trophies races are far few and between
like once a year

just my 2 cents

jason

I'll have to admit that our hobby shop stocks more offroad than oval stuff. Because that's what people are interested in because that's what they see plastered all over the pages of the magazines. During the Christmas buying period not one oval car was purchased. Yet they sold countless offroad packages. And not that they didn't try to offer oval, people just weren't interested. Oval has over engineered itself to a point that a person of average intelligence feels overwhelmed with the choices of what to buy, and how to make it work. Offroad mfgrs. have quenched that fear with big pretty packages of ground pounding monster trucks or buggies where all you need to do is put in the batteries and fuel, pull the starter and you're off. Very simple. EVERY oval mfgr. out there caters to existing racers, not to new racers. Just look at the cars, they are engineering marvels in what they have developed into over the years but that is what stops many potential racers from joining the ranks.

Bolink was on track to offer an ARTR pkg. before they closed and the fact that one mfgr. heard and saw the need was encouraging, unfortunately they never got to market the idea.

1/4 scale racing used to charge $50 entry fees and do a 50% cahs payback at their big races. Finally enough racers said put an end to the cash payouts give out plaques and lower the entry fees. The fussing and feuding over cash purses just took the enjoyment out of racing. When it's a one shot deal on who wins and loses, one accidental bump can take you out of the purse. Then how do you feel, like you want to bust someones chops, that's how. Oval racing is close racing, we touch and rub fenders and when it's that precise money can divide even the best of friends.

Only thing that worries me about running for money, is think about it, guys cheat on local shows for nothing, put money as an incentive and you are gonna need some massive tech-ing to keep a level playing field.

Z MAIN LOSER,

One of the problems created by racers ( I won't say just OVAL racers ) is NOT Pre-entering the so called "TROPHY" races.

A race director/promoter is trying to organize the best event possible, but with low pre-entry numbers it's hard to committ to spending sometimes nearly $1000.00 on TROPHIES and having 1/2 of them go unused. (If you are luck you can return unused ones for 1/2 the price you paid for them)

I think to solve the low turnouts at track is with the low end racer i should know i am one of them . What has happened every year somebody comes out with a new product saying this is the best charger or my batterys are far better you need to buy these to be competive. Well hell the majority of us cannot afford to buy new batterys or new equipment every year . Thats why i think we need to get things back to a level playing field . There more people that can afford to buy spec cars , batterys & motors .
The best thing that are club did was to start a sportsman class . the rules are simple any pan car chassie , tire & stock motor must have a nascar body and you have to run a spec battery or no battery above 1600 mah this is a great class we had 6-7 drivers this year .
Steve Shafer

I thought that eventually it would get around to the money and trophies thing. I am really on the fence post about that one. Now that I am on the side of a “track operator” I can see it from different perspectives. From the racers side, it would be nice. From the track owners side, it’s an additional expense. And believe it or not, if a track owner breaks even on his races…….that’s a win!

We all spend a lot of money to do what we do. Even on a local level, to stay competitive, we have to stay on top of the all the new stuff and that takes money and it’s nice sometimes to get some of that back in plain old cash. If it is done on a weekly basis, yes, I think it will lend itself to tighter rules and tighter teching because there are those out there that are not willing to do the work it takes to win legally. On the other hand, if it is just done every once in a while, I see no harm in it.

Just keep in mind that whether it is cash, trophies, plaques or whatever, it is going to cost somebody something to make them available. The track owner is already paying for the building or track, the electric bill, and all of the other overhead that goes into keeping a place going. The only way he can pay back anything is to add to the entry fee. Try telling racers that the entry is going up $5.00 and watch them moan, groan and stay at home.

Gift certificates work to some extent because it is all returned to the hobby shop and the racers does get something for his efforts. However, it still cost the owner a percentage. What I really think that works well is a combination of both. Small trophies for the beginners and gift certificates for the more advanced classes. But either way, the racer has to understand that the track owner can’t provide big bucks or big trophies without going up on his entry fee. This would have to be something that would have to be discussed with the racers and see which way they want to go with it.

One thing that can be done and will cost next to nothing is to make up certificates on the computer to serve as awards. With today’s graphics programs, nice ones can be made and printed out in color and they will be something that the racer can frame and hang on his trophy wall.

The bottom line is, I agree that racers want “something” in return for their work and support of their local track, the question is; how much are they willing to pay to get it?

For money races I am not worried that much about cheating. We can tech cars. My biggest concern is from what I saw in the q-scale racing. A guy getting hacked by a back marker or vicitm of some "team" driving would cause more reason for a fight than cheating.

Here's another side of the issue. We've talked a lot about new racers and budget racers but what about keeping existing racers?

People come and go in this hobby in droves. I've probably got more than 150 names of guys who have raced oval in the last few years. They race maybe consistanly and then sporadically then they disappear. Sometimes there are personal issues that force them to quit but other times you just have no idea of why they quit.

It would be real beneficial sometimes if racers would just let the trackowners know why they've quit. Because if there is a problem, feedback is the only way things can change and be fixed.