Anyone running a Novak 5800 in off-road? Just wondering what you are running your gearing at. I run a T4 but even if you run a XXX-T I can get an idea from what you run.

i have ran it and it depends alot on your track if u are running and open track gear high at a 20/21 if it is a tight track with alot of corners gear lower at a 17/18, also it depends on the type of track it is, a high traction blue groove, or a low traction sandy type track. if u got a high traction track gear lower for more torque or quicker spin up, but if u got a low traction track gear higher for less torque and a slower spin up so u dont break the tires loose as easy. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


i hope this gives u a good idea of how to gear your truck, if u have and question about what i posted or need something said more clear just let me know and i will help u as much as i can

That gives me an idea of where to start! Thanks.

no problem hankey :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Gearing it like a 10 X 2.
Is a good starting point.

Thanks Dan! I played with it once last year at Vicksburg and think I ran a 16 or 17 pinion on my T4.

I don't think the sensored motor can take the abuse of off road racing. I am seeing the racers with the Novak systems having problems of thermalling even with a fans on the motor and the ESC. The sensors get damaged from the abuse. I expect the Reedy Neo will have the same problems too!

The Novak racers are getting ready to switch over to the Schulze/Plettenberg combo that has alot more power and is designed for long run times without fans. The Novak for $220 is you get what you pay for! A cheap Brushless System!

The Novak system has had thermo shutdown in touring cars also. It has nothing to do with being sensored and/or off-road. I am sure if the Schulze/Plettenberg was ROAR legal more would run them. Until that time I doubt many will run them outside of bashers or outlaw classes.

You you pointed out in another topic, lets get back to the topic of this thread. the Novak 5800 in off-road.

I ran mine all last summer and never had a problem with it. XXX-T MF2. I ran on a really big, wide open track. Lots of speed.

Sorry Hank!

I just spent this weekend helping 3 Stadium Truck racers running the Novak 5800 SS to be able to race an entire 20 minute main without thermalling. 1 took it out and I lent him the Schulze ESC and a Hacker C40 8 turn, the others ran until they thermalled near the end of the race. 1 of them was having trouble with the switch cutting off prematurely that was an easy fix with the wire cutters. No more switch.

A Novak system did win after he thermalled it started running again. He had a small fan on the ESC and a big fan on the motor with a seperate battery pack to run those. He is a very good driver and had a huge lead by this time along with a couple of us racing the Schulze/Plettenbergs had other problems related to the shocks and chassis or his thermalling would have lost him the race.

Was a good race weekend!

FYI I've seen 4300s now thermaly shut down in a 4 cell (4.8v) four minute oval race.

I've heard that road course guys have bypassed the thermal protection on the Novak systems, so they don't shut down in 5 minute heats... At least I'm told they are by passing the sensor on the motor... and this apparently works to some extent...

If the motors are what is getting too hot... then this does not really seem to be something that will change by the use of a better controler. It would seem the only solution would be to build a motor that disapates heat better... or one that handles more heat without melting down.

Is it possible thay are just over gearing in search of more speed? Perhaps the winner is the guy who gets the gearing as close to perfect without OVER gearing, he would be the fastest as he could complete the heat without "thermaling" ? Ralf 13

I the case of the 4 cell oval where I've seen it shutdown... it's most deffintely from gearing very high... Not sure it's fair to say it's OVER gearing, cause the guy it happend to was very fast, although he was not the winner, and would not have been even if it hadn't shut down (on the last lap). He did come in second however (I think)...

I think I heard he was geared with a rollout of like 2.8" where I personaly was at 2.5" or so... Others have been known to run at 2.3" or so and are still fast...

In pan car use... I couldn't say for sure... but one pretty much has to assume the racers were gearing up as far as they could in effort to go faster. Assuming their lap times hadn't fallen off from over gearing, then it's safe to say that racers will always gear up further if it means they will run faster... and if you ultimately shut down due to heat because you've geared that far up, then well... the guy who figures out how to keep his system cool will have an advantage...

Bottom line is, that there are many indications that cooling and/or stoping thermal shutdowns may very well play a major role in how fast you can go with a brushless system.

Makes me wonder however.... We don't have no thermal shutdown mechinism with brushed motors. If we did, we'd probably see alot more shudowns happening with them too. Insted... we just push them to the limit and/or till they go up in smoke.

I have also thought for sometime now that one of the reasons higher RPM stock motors are often faster then lower RPM motors is because they probably cool better, do to bigger holes in the cans, and due to there being fewer laminations on the Arm preventing air from getting to the windings, etc.... Anyway... At some point cooling has to be a factor in how far you can push a electric motor.

As far as I know Novak is the only manufacturer that has a thermal shutdown in their motors. Just a guess but I bet they tended to be conservitive rather then risk having a lot of problems from racers that over heated the motors... could be they wanted to avoid another Quasar charger type of problem.

A heat sink should be really effective on a brushless motor because the windings are in the can and it is the windings that get hot.

As far as I know Novak is the only manufacturer that has a thermal shutdown in their motors. Just a guess but I bet they tended to be conservitive rather then risk having a lot of problems from racers that over heated the motors... could be they wanted to avoid another Quasar charger type of problem.

A heat sink should be really effective on a brushless motor because the windings are in the can and it is the windings that get hot.

I would think the thermal shutdown is monitored by the ESC that Novak is not the only one that has that. My Hacker Master Comp and any Schulze ESC I have owned has thermal shutdown temp pre set and built into the ESC.

I suspect they are being conservative. I did however completely melt one of their ESCs. I was geared higher than was prudent for some speed trials in my basher. First time, it simply shut down until it had cooled. The second time though when it stopped we pulled the body and found that the ESC had gotten so hot that all the wires had come unsoldered. The case was melted in half. Novak replaced it promptly as it was very new.

After that, I was very careful, using a fan and such but after gearing down I haven't had a problem. Don't even use the fan now.

And yes, it is the ESC that is thermally protected- or is supposed to be.

Thanks for clearing that up and confirms that it has nothing to with being sensored or not sensored. We also have to remember that brushless IS different then brushed. In a brushed motor you overgear the comm turns red/blue/black (pick your color)... you gear down. Since it seems that brushless motors can pull way more gear and there is no comm for feedback, some will keep gearing down until something has to give.

I think some are expecting 7 turn motor performance out of the Novak motors... you ain't gonna get it... the performance is somewhere around a 15 turn motor where the other motors talked about here have much more power. More power means you are actually easier on the motor as, in most cases, it provides more power then you can put to the track so you are off the throttle much more.

I suspect that partial throttle is harder on the ESC than wide open throttle. That is usually the case with regular ESC's.

There were quite a few Brushless systems running in 4wd open at Washtenaw that never thermaled, I know of 1 that was run in a Mod truck that never did either.

Craps, I heard a 20 minute main? maybe that's the problem?

I see nothing wrong with keeping racing at 5 minutes. Why do you want to run a 20 minute main? just because the battery will allow it? just because "you can"..... Rediculous. I believe we're gonna run racers away if the races are extended beyond 5 minutes, it would make race days WAY too long.

20 minute race eliminate the luck factor where 5 minute races are decided during the first couple of laps and may not be the best driver. 20 minutes allows the best driver to come back from a mistake made or another driver taking him out.

20 minutes is alot more FUN to alot of drivers that were racing gas for that reason and are coming back to electric now that 20 minute mains and long runtimes with brushless and li-pos has allowed. They like the long races without the headaches of a pit man, starter boxes, glow ignitiors, temp gauges and the ever constant screw driver tuning the carb. The racers started around here with electric and went to gas so they could race longer with alot quiting the hobby because of the headaches of gas and the short runtimes and high maintence of brushed motors and nickel batteries.

I disagree that 20 minute races will run racers away! If anything it will bring them back by giving them a real race instead of who is the luckest on the 1st couple of laps in a 5 minute race.

You race in your 5 minute races and I will race in my 20 minute races!

20 minute electric mains are the future with brushless and li-pos!

I believe we're gonna run racers away if the races are extended beyond 5 minutes, it would make race days WAY too long.

That is a definate possibility, the last time I raced I was at the track 12 hours and ran three times.

Besides who the heck wants to track marshal for that long?

I don't about the area where you guys race at, but electric had almost died out around here and electrics are out numbered 10 to 1 here. So the electric class used to be one class that used to race they're 5 minute main and turn marshal a gas class right after for 20 minutes. This almost wiped out the electrics around here with alot leaving the class to go to gas because of more competition and longer run times. Now some are starting to come back from gas to race in our 20 minute electric races that is all thanks to Li-pos and Brushless!

I know other parts of the country there is more electrics than gas and that must be nice, but here the electrics have to do what they can to survive. What is really nice about the li-po/brushless truck is I can race with the gas truck class at most places with a pit stop penalty. Now this is FUN!

Same here, however most left electric due to the constant barrage of new stuff they thought that they had to have to win. Many also left because of the cool noise the nitros made. Personally I think it is because its much easier to win a race in nitro if you just stay on the track and finish. People want to wind and not seeing a way to win frustrates the hell out of people. Sometimes in electric you can run a flawless race and still get lapped, I have never seen anyone run anything close to a flawless race in nitro. But this is off topic.

If I'm not mistaken the Wastenaw track is generaly around 50 degrees F tops... so maybe ambeint temp helps keep motors cool... :)

But anyway, clearly off road and carpet racing are two totaly differnt beasts in terms of demands on motors. Now I'm not saying that a person couldn't gear down a bit to make a motor last 4 or 5 minutes in a carpet race... however as I said previously, people will gear up as far as they can, if they keep going faster when they do it. So I'm not sure it's reasonable to just say 'you should' be able to make 5 minutes, etc... While it may be correct that you should be able to... still people will push the limits to get an edge, that's what racing is all about.

Electric is stronger around here then nitro. Our local track gets 50+ enteries a race and the the monthly MARS race got about 175 enteries per race.

........ the performance is somewhere around a 15 turn motor where the other motors talked about here have much more power.........


Really? Hmmm....., Indoor that is plenty enough but outdoor at WOOR, that seems just a little slow. I am definitely not calling them slow, but when I say that I mean, now that brushless is legal to run with brushed in Mod, 15turns may be a little underpowered on a large track.....What is the LRP supposed to perform as?

Don't quote me but I believe it will be at the minimum ROAR legal limit of about a 10 turn motor.

Novak "claims" the 5800 to be roughly equivalent to a 10 turn motor. whose 10 turn? good question.

Don't quote me but I believe it will be at the minimum ROAR legal limit of about a 10 turn motor.


It's all good Hank. 15 turn is probebly a good estimate for the performance of the 5800. But what about the LRP? I heard it is supposed to be around a 10 turn.

dyno,

well, that is the first i have heard of someone thermalling in 4 min on oval. i did it in 5 min, twice. gearing had something to do w/ it, but the car was way fast w/ the big gear, and the lap times i had at appr. 4 min were as fast the first few laptimes for the rest of the field, just had to make sure i ran a non-deadshorted pack to gain enough runtime when geared like that. BTW, i talked to Charlie Suangka from Novak about my thermal shutdowns. he said the sensors (in the motor or speedo) had to get appr. 200 deg. before they shut down the system. I could feel warmth on my speedo heatsinks, but i could have held my finger on them all day long, definetly not 200 deg. so, i sent mine in and got a new unit, along w/ the upgrade to the 'SS+' version so i would have a brush motor option on the speedo...

I also run 4300 4 cell oval and have seen several people thermal shutdown. Some of it seems to be inconsistencies in the Novak units. Some seem to shutdown quite easily while others do not.

Ran my 5800 for the first time this weekend. It had power to spare on our track. The motor stayed cool to the touch but the ESC got pretty darn warm but never missed a beat through two GP3300 packs back to back (about 30 minutes)

The feel is great I couldn't tell it wasn't a regular motor/ESC combo.

Pat, Also had a chance to try mine this weekend in racing conditions. It had as much power as I could handle ;) Only difference is I had to crank up the drag brake a lot. What gearing did you run?

My final ratio was 10.98

I just picked a 19 tooth cause it seems no matter what mod motor I ended up putting in my T3 I always ended up at 19 tooth LOL.

The power band was nice and wide so Im sure I could go up if I wanted.

Ran my novak SS in an actualy race today. It ran great, kept up with another racer that was running an 11 turn. I qualified first and won the main. Someone else had a faster time in one qualifier but we use a composite of all 3 to determine qualifying position.

In practice I managed to thermally shut it down, but it was a 90+ degree day and I had been out on the track for 15 minutes. I zapped it with my temp gun and the ESC read 220, motor only read 125. Never had a problem in the 5 minute race, the ESC came off at 200 though.

Hank race yours yet? How did ya do? What did you gear at?

Yes, I have raced mine a couple times... more power then I could use ;) I'm gearing at 18/87 I believe. At this point I've been using it more for practice then actualy racing. I can run a dozen packs through it during practice (to learn the track) and not have to worry about tending to the motor like I would with a stock motor. Then I just run a pack or two with my stock motor to get the timing down for that motor.

What truck do you run? I'm thinking I might be over geared just a bit.

I'm running a T4

Thermalling. LOL

It didn't do it in a race, thats all that matters to me. I also think I am overgeared. Hank runs 18/87 and his tranny as a 2.6:1 ratio I have been running 19/87 and my tranny has a 2.4:1 ratio.

It should be noted that on a cooler day I am able to run about 15 minutes when the battery dumps with it.

If I ran 15 minutes with a brushed mod motor it would need cut and probably new brushes.

I would say I had about 1 1/2 hours of total track time and never had to touch the truck. That is what is great about brushless. I may actually downgrade to the 4300 to get something closer to a stock motor... I did run in the mod class a couple times but it just isn't for me... I'll stick to the stock classes.

also pat name one motor that is as fast as a brushless and can run on a 2400 for 13 minutes, that is why i am running a novak 5800

hankster your track lets the 4300 in stock, where do u race at, all of the track around gr put all brushless in mod

Nope, all brushless motors run in Mod. The 4300 performance would be closer to a stock motor and since I run stock class that would be of more use to me in practice.

Turns out that I was over geared. The instructions say run a certian ratio in stadium truck but go on to recomend a pinion/sput combination for the T3. Well it turns out that Novak used 2.6 as the tranny ratio to figure this when the T3 has a tranny ratio of 2.4


I would love it if we had a class where everyone had to run a SS4300, I love stock racing, but I love running this Novak brushless almost as much.

SS5800 ran real well today too, I had a brain fart and missed a lap but otherwise it hung with 10 turn V2's

Another flawless day for the Novak Super Sport, haven't had it out of my truck in five weekends of running it.

What gear ratio are you using?

I am right around 12.2

Pat
Glad you are not having any problems!

I just spent 30 minutes last night helping a racer try to get his 2nd Novak 5800SS system working that had already been back to Novak for repairs once already. Now he is going to have to send it along with his other 5800SS already boxed up to Novak for repairs. That is 2 systems with one racer and there was 4 other racers having problems with they're systems too that were complaing about sending them back and one was on his 3rd send back.

3 Ex-Novak owners have already switched over to the Schulze/Plettenberg system with no problems and they love the extra power and auto brake feature. More Novak racers are getting ready to make the switch as soon as they get rid of the Novak and get the extra funds for the Schulze/Plettenberg.

In defense of Novak, there is one racer that runs real good and doesn't appear to have many problems with 4300SS system.

My Opinion!
The Novak is good for the beginner racer only as a starter system and should be replaced with better more reliable brushless systems for serious racing.