I'm currious what it takes to get ROAR to change their rules and/or disregard their rules for National events, such as the recent ROAR carpet nationals (on road)? I'm specificly wondering how LRP/Reedy were allowed to compete with a brushless motor that is not yet in distribution.

I thought the new Brusless rules required that brushless motors to be in the distribution chain prior to them being alowed to be legal.

LRP is reporting that Jon Orr won 12th scale Mod at the recent carpet national even, but they are clearly saying that the motor and controler are not yet ready for distribution.

What's up with this? Is it fair to assume now that ROAR will continue to allow all sorts of other products to be raced even when they don't currently meet the rules? If so, what is the process to get your product allowed even though it doesn't meet the current rules?

How is it that ROAR go to the point where they decided to allow these brushless motors to run at a National event when they are not yet availble to the public?

i think the brushless class is exibition only. so i guess no rules

No, actualy ROAR recently put out a document that allows brushless to be run in Mod class right along side of brushed modified motors. See the following for the details...

www.roarracing.com/rules/pdfs/2005brushless-rule.doc (http://www.roarracing.com/rules/pdfs/2005brushless-rule.doc)

Of note in that document is the peice on what it takes for aproval... section 8.7.5.4.f...

"f) A minimum of two thousand (2000) brushless motors must be available at the time of approval. A minimum of three hundred (300) brushless motors must have been sold to at least three (3) distributors or hobby shops or OEM’s at the time of submittal. The manufacturer has to provide an address of a hobby shop or the like, that any driver who wishes to obtain these motors at the time of the approval can do so. No hybrid (mixing of parts from approved brushless motors) allowed."

My understanding is that both Novak and LRP/Reedy sponsored drivers were allowed to compete with motors that are not available to the general public... I could be wrong about Novak, but LRP/Reedy clearly was using a motor that is not yet in distribution in the US or anywhere in the world to my knowlege. It would seem that LRP/Reedy has somehow been given special consideration and that they were not required to meet the rule in 8.7.5.4.f, shown above. I'd like to know what the procedure is that allowed them to compete with a motor that doesn't meet the rules as they currently are published.

Weeellll, it's only been five days, I bet no one from ROAR has red the post yet? Ralf 13 BTTT

Reedy and Novak "don't need no stinking rules", that obvious..

Why do you care so much? It's a new class there are lots of things to be worked out. Notice I don't go on line after line. You must be scared of change, is your state a red state?

brad that is an ignorant statement bro.

what new class? roar has allowed "any" brushless system to run in modified with the brushed motors.

"our" only problem with this is:

1) modified brushed motors currently have to abide by very strict rules in order to be "roar" legal. brushless motors have no such rules?

2)the national held last weekend is what most are up in arms over: roar allowed "any" brushless motor to run in and with the brushed modified class. the brushed motors were held to there current strict rules while the brushless motors were allowed to run prototypes!

i promise you would not have been happy if you showed up to run modified only to find out the guy sitting next to you was bob novak with a lap top and a prototype brushless motor and controller..(one you or i could not buy with a truck load of money)

stop making this out to be brushed vs brushless THIS IS NOT OUR POINT!

i don't care what you use as long as i can buy it at the hobby shop! very unfair in our eyes!

i have nothing against roar but they did drop the ball on this one!

2005 should have been a year where brushless had there own class and they should have given track owners time to figure how to tech them and to see just how well they compare to current "roar" legal modified motors!

let apples run with apples and the oranges to run with oranges......

no 1 off speedos and motors allowed at any roar sanctioned event in 2005

if novak or lrp wanted to show the world how great there stuff is they could have ran in a seperate class and compared lap times and results. all of this is obvious to the "racers" just not roar? weird stuff

katf1sh you hit it right on brother here goes roar again playing games with us at national races again and working with the factory boys again ...........

Oh don't get me wrong. I never said I agreed with ROAR. Brushed and brushless shouldn't be racing against eachother, but dyno who started this thread makes it out to be so negative against brushless. This is something that time will work out. But if people are going to come on here and run their mouth (which is fine, that's what this is for), they need to have a concise point and a solution. The person yelling the loudest isn't winning the fight.

Actually if you read the threads you'll see that DYNO has been racing brushless and trying to PROMOTE it for quite a while. I think the problem was the way ROAR handled things. Letting TEAM drivers use prototype equipment! He WANTS brushless to have it's own class. Ralf 13

I wish ALL the sanctioning bodies would just go ahead and make braushless an official class of it's own and set rules, which will be allowed to be modified as needed untill the manufacture base is well established. I mean buy that allow the director and an official to make a CO-ruleing on an event byy event bassis, in advance of corse, as things change and progress.
I mean why not offer it as an option and see how racers respond to the opertunity to run this class?
I for one, think it might be nice not to have to "fiddle" with my motors anymore, providing the tech issued are established and enforced, I like the idea of a class where tuning and driving my car, and just taking care of my batteries was all taht was needed.
NOW, I don't want this to come about at the expence of any existing class(s), but let it have the opertunity to establish and grow and something new.
I think a simple POLE, as to who will run or bumping pre entry requirements up so race directors, have due notice as to how many will show and race what class, could help matters along.
I know I have probably missed some things, and understated the difficulties involved in other aspects, but I feel this class has potentential, for those who either wish to have less to fiddle with, OR beginers who dont want to have to prchase all the go fast suport equiptment asociatted with current motors out there.
I mean when folks come check us out at big races, how often do you see them start getting into the idea, UNTILL they ask about the dynos, and lathes,Magnet zapers, and such, and Get bashed over the head with a big case of sticker shock?
True brushless is not a "cure all" for the above, but it is a step in that direction.
Just some thoughts from a racer who has yet to try a brushless system, but sees some potentaly GOOD THINGS in it.

We ran the brushless 4300 Novak system at the region 8 race in Omaha, 18 entries and a very competitive racing. It was ran as an exhibition class and was very sucessful.

We also ran the same system at the IROAR spring fling in Vinton, Iowa, 30 entries, again very competitive racing.

Originally the thought by many of our racers was it would be great for a 2nd class, no motors to fool with, just battery, chassis tuning and go racing, and this has certainly been the case.

I do think that the Novak needs to provide some sort of testing equipment to make sure that everyone is running the 4300 and not the 5800.

At the tracks that we have run the 4300 they are faster than stock and very close to 19 turn at zero timing, which is about right for those with medium setup and driving ablity.

We are very happy with the system and hope that some people or groups don't do something that ruins a good thing.

Brushless is here to stay. Ithink the only problem at this time is that a prototype motor was allowed to run and that prototype motor was brushless.
At any other event that motor would not have been a legal motor. Any motor to be legal must be available to the public. How was this motor allowed to be run! That is my only question, and Roar wants us to join?
Butch

I have read this thread and I agree that the major hassel at every big race is no one knows what the rules are. There are always a ton of deviations and that is bad for racing. It's simple to fix, their is a rule book and go by it. If a rule needs to be changed then it should be noted and changed after the event not during.

Brian, you have a PM.

I don't really see where my comments were against brushless... My complaint and what I still don't understand is how ROAR allows their own rules to be broken or ignored at a national event. The LRP brushless stuff IS NOT in production and/or distribution yet, this makes it illegal for ROAR competition...

There are other brushless systems that would be legal (the Novak SS systems for example), and I would have no problem if they'd competed and/or won the event. But quite frankly it would be highly unlikely since the Novak systems just don't have enough power I don't think....

My understanding is that Novak also ran a brushless motor/system that is not yet in production either... that is they didn't run the SS system that is currently available. But I have no evidence of this, only third hand information...

What I would like to know is how it is that ROAR allows for non-production motors to be run in a National event, when their rules clearly don't allow for it. If a non production brushed motor were used, I'd have the same concerns.

To answer the questions...yes a ROAR rep (me) read the very first post and have been workign out the brushless/brushed issues at least in the oval front in prep of this event. Right now as it stands for OVAL....the brushed and brushless motors are not to be run together per the oval committee and the approved rule devaition is in affect for oval events. We are (ROAR and Josh at Halo) will work out the remaingin issue if brushless will even be class at this upcoming event. Josh has been very patient wiht ROAR as well as very supportive and is working to the best interestof the hobby.

FYI...just because there are so many discussions...as a ROAR rep I try to keep my thread reviews under the ROAR section (mainly for time constraints) and to avoid 80 different discussions and replies. You can always ask me question by e-mail to at kenny@team1rc.com inplace of criticizing reviews or no posts...

Still fighting for the racers.

Kenny B
ROAR ExComm
Track Director

Dynomohum....ROAR took a black eye and made mistake in trying to be consistant with previous postings and past discussions. The right steps weren't taken and we are resolving.

We put a cold steak on the eye and are looking for the correct remedy and moveing on.

Thanks for the continued support.

Kenny B

We put a cold steak on the eye and are looking for the correct remedy and moveing on.

Kenny B

a charleys steak i hope? hahahahah

Let's just say that ROAR got caught "favoring" certain manufactures, neglecting their own rules and re-in forced the "rumors" that ROAR is Mfg. orientated. Kenny, while it may sound like I'm against you, I'm not. It's just a shame that you are being a ROAR Pawn. Thank you for the un-thankful time you spend, to bad it's all for naught.

When I see Oval at a ROAR Worlds, or an "IFMAR" event, perhaps my negativity will be less. Until then, all I see is Oval, still using rules from other forms of racing, regulated as second hand citizens, with a spokesperson that has no say.

Glad to see a response from someone at ROAR... even if it didn't really clear things up much. Other then to acknowlege that a mistake had been made.

Anyway I do appreate it Kenny.

I don't think Mod Oval has much to fear from brushless at this time... perticularly with any system I'm aware of, either in production or just a prototype... Probably weren't likely to be getting many if anyone showing up to run Mod Oval with a brushless unless they come just for the fun of competition.

Well for that matter I don't think anyone has to fear brushless... It'd be nice to have a brushless system available to the public that can win the 12th scale national event... I think ultimately that is/will be a good thing. Now if we could only buy the darn thing at a reasonable price at our local hobby shops.

.....

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I hope we don't see any of us as a pawn. The ExComm makes decisions as group and back them as a group even if individuals feel different.

Charkey's steak!!! KATFISH.....you know my soft spot! another great meal at the Snowbirds! Just wish they delivered to the great white north!

ROAR is trying...hang in there.

Kenny B