I've battled with ill handling cars my whole oval carrer... I'm starting to get better at the chassis setup stuff... but lately I'm getting into this situation where I'm pushing going into the corner and getting loose in the last half or third of the corner... Another symptom is that it seems like I have to keep turning more as I am going though the corners (hence the push continues though at least the first half of the corner). Then just as I get past the apex, the car tends to come around on me...

Now, quite frankly I've had this condtion with a variety of setups, so telling you all about my springs and tires and stuff is way to much detail and I'm not really looking for advice on what color tire or spring to use, etc... What I'd really like to know is general advice that would tell me how a person might go about solving a problem with a car that pushes going in and gets loose comming out... That is, what can you do to tighten a car up on exit that won't make it any tighter on entry...

Without knowing the details of you set-up soften up the RF and go softer in the middle-softer spring and t-bar.

And/or try a softer spring on the LR.

DynoMoHum try moving the left rear out 2mmto tighten the car coming out, this could help or your tray position might be in correct or if you don't have a slider it might be your battery position. If you've tryed all kinds of different springs and Tires I would try those two I mentioned....

Wheeler

Richie King always told me to fix the first thing it was doing wrong,in your case push in.Then when it does get a bite you've got the wheel cranked too much,she gets loose.So fix the tight in first.Work on the right side,1 of the Salvas boys has great info on the new hyperdrive car thread,around page 62 on up. look at posts 947 on to 970.

I had a problem like this 1 year ago.....My rear pod had to much droop ...also...The axle spacers were set to get the longest amount of wheelbase..axle being farthest away from the motor....I swapped them and brought the axle in closer.......also..with the battery and motor in car...i took some droop out of the pod so both the chassis and pod sat even..............Im not sure what did what but the problem went away........

normally, when i have a car that is pushy loose, it is usually that the car pushes so much going through the corner, that I have to keep the tires turn the whole time. and then, by the time the front end starts to grab the track, it snaps the rear-end around. I would work on getting the car to loosen up getting into the corner. You have to enter the corner right before you can exit it right. Without knowing your set-up, it is hard to offer a solution. soften the right front tire/spring, move the RF tire in....there are many things to try. most importantly, make the car turn in properly first, and then make it come off the corner.

Danny, was it Richie that said "plant the rear and make it steer!"

I had been hearing that 'plant the rear and make it steer' comment and was contimplating what it would take to do that... Now you guys are saying what in someways sounds just the oposit... make it steer first then go from there...

Quite frankly I would tend to agree that I do have to get the thing to turn better on entry, then hopefully I will then know what to do so it will still have the rear planted on exit.


DK... I found the comments from Steve in the hyperdrive thread, those do look helpfull... I'll post here what seems to be the most general and the kind of stuff I was looking for when I started this topic.

From Racing Steve-
" The right side of the car is for entry-middle of the curve ... and the left side of the car is for middle-off.

If you're looking for more steering on entry try either ...
softer RF spring or tire
stiffer RR tire or LR spring (the LR spring is in fact working as the "RR" spring)
move in the RF
move out the RR

If you're looking for more steering on exit try either ...
softer LF spring or tire
stiffer LR tire or RR spring (the RR spring is in fact working as the "LR" spring)
move out the LF
move in the LR

THE BIG CHALLENGE is actually to read and feel what the car's doing ... that is exactly where I'd say it pays ... study and pay good attention to your car's handling ... that's how you'll gain consistency in your overall performance."

Can anyone tell me, or point me to a chart that lists the spring stiffness of the Wolfe Racing front springs? I've searched and I can't find one... Heck I even just recently opened up a new set, I had looked for a list with the package but could not find one...

per www.wolfemotorsports.com

Standard
orange -4
blue-6
white -8
red-10
green-12
purple-14
black-16

Progressive
orange-4-6
blue 6-8
white 8-10
red 10-12
green 11-13
purple 12-14

Can anyone tell me, or point me to a chart that lists the spring stiffness of the Wolfe Racing front springs? I've searched and I can't find one... Heck I even just recently opened up a new set, I had looked for a list with the package but could not find one...
Glenn - I've got a chart in my pit box. I'll be at the track tomorrow.
softest
orange 4
blue 6
white 8
red 10
green 12
purple 14
black 16
hardest

Dynamohum - Here's my 2 cents. Sounds like the car is simply pushing, as the car reaches the center of the turn enough speed has been scrubbed to allow the front tires to get traction and then the car seems very loose. Its tough to offer advise w/out more info but if you can post the weights on each tire and which compounds your running, also track size, surface and gereral track conditions.

Doug P.

Yeah I pretty much agree, now that I think about it more... that my car is probably just plain pushing and that I really need to make it steer better... or at the minimum that's what I need to do first.

I'd give all the details of my setup, but in many ways I don't want that level of detailed advice. I mean, honestly... everyone has their own 'special' setup and I'm sure mine is all wrong compared to anyone elses... Not to mention right now I've got some funky rear spring geometry that I know needs to be changed, etc... I mainly want ideas on how things change based on putting a softer tire on some perticular corner of the car, or spring, etc...

I'll tell you this... all the fastest guys in the class I'm running (4300 brushless) can go full throttle though the corner, and I'm no were near able to do that. I have to blip the throttle big time to get it to steer... which again leads to the conclusion that I'm too tight...

The more stagger you have in the front the less bite the the left front gets for turning the car into the turn. Before I change springs I find a stagger and tire compound that makes the car turn in. "Make it turn so the tires don't burn."

if you ask me LOL.. which isnt much.. i think you have a tire issue.. you say it has done it on various setups.. id guess you always run the same tires... even if you run the right compounds, your shore readings could be different.. i had this issue last year for a few weeks...

Change the rubber family on the RF and back out steering. Your not getting enough bite, I doubt it's chassis related. Just try 3 pinks and a purple, or magenta for 19 turn. I believe the brushless class is about the speed of 19 turn...Right???
Stickier RF will do it.

Later, Bret

You sound frustrated... been there done that
Have you thought about this , could be you have a piece to the front end slightly bent, or a warped t-plate or any number of part issues that are causing you problems. Tweaking,changing springs, rear widths etc, might not be the real root of the problem. I had a front aluminum upright one time that was slightly bent. It drove me crazy for over a month before I found it, almost made me quit racing. A buddy of mine chased a set-up on our local track for a month before he found a warped t-plate.
Here's one my Dad always told me KISS keep it simple stupid. I'm bad about over thinking a problem.

Hope you figure it out I don't know you but enjoy reading your posts

Racing Southern Style
Wade

Generally if the car is off, as much as you describe, then a little
tweek here or there is not going to do it.
I've never seen a tiny adjustment make a crap car good...

Make a drastic change, to see if there is a drastic change
in the characteristic that you don't like.
You think you're pushing? Put on the softest front tires that you can
find, and see if it still pushes. If the rear end tries
passing your front end (and it should), you know it was tires.
Get it "closer" with combos of tires so that you can drive it harder,
and then start playing with the smaller things.

Tiny adjustments make good drivers go 4:02:45 instead of 4:03:25.
Tiny adjustments won't make a 42 lap car a 45 lap car.

my opinion of course..

...ok how bout this for a strange one...

About once every 5 or 6 laps the car wants to get LOOSE on entry to the corner...when you roll out of the throttle, it acted like FULL BRAKE apply and the back would jump around...

REPLACED MOTOR/SPEED CONTROL/BEARINGS/TIRES/

Finally I changed my radio profile to a default setting from another car...PROBLEM FIXED.

Something had changed in my radio profile..and looking at it...I couldn't see it...but for some reason I was getting what felt like a brake pulse signal.

Back to DynoMoHum... something I never saw mentioned was any mention of WING.

Will the car go into the corner LOOSE w/o a wing?

Did you change anything aero wise that would have taken away frontal downforce? Or maybe mount the wing farther back?

I know years ago, moving the wing forward use to loosen us up alot getting in...It's not something I play with much anymore ...but~

...WAITING to see the outcome of this SAGA... like they say on TNT "DRAMA"

Spring cross reference and rating info.

http://www.deccosoftware.com/forum/tech/SpringRates.htm

4300 brushless is faster then stock by a tenth or two (this is on a track slightly smaller then snowbirds and flat) and a tenth or two slower then 19 turn... so it's pretty close to right in the middle of the two...

In some ways I do think I'm way off... but then I've been to the point where if I make realtively small change to loosen it up to make it steer going in(like remove a little tweak), then I'm way to loose to drive... then if I tighten it up I can't steer going it, so it would seem that I'm not that far off.

In general I've had this problem for a long time, with differnt cars even, so I'm not thinking there is something majorly wrong with some component on my car... I'm even thinking that it might be partly my driving style or somehting since it has been a persistant issue for me. I can never figure out just how much of my problem is driving and how much is my car, since it seems my car never really handles that well, and it makes it very difficult to drive. I was just going to try and learn something the rest of this year, by asking for general advice on what makes a car turn in OK, but not be too loose going out, etc...

Next year I've pretty much made up my mind that I'm going to seek professional help... That is, I'm pretty much thinking I'm going to have one of the local fast guys with some time and willingness to help build me a car and set it up, then I'll learn to drive it and/or maintain it. I've already spoken with a guy and he seems willing... we haven't discussed how much $$ I'll pay for his serivices... but I'm thinking this may be my best solution in the long run. I don't want to do this for the the few weeks left that I'll be racing this year, but I'm thinking next year this will be a good idea for me.

Dyno. Have you let one of the local hotshoes. drive your car? and see if it is you or the car. What works for one driver always don't fit for the next.

I don't consider myself to be one of the hotshoes at our track but I did drive Dyno's car. It did drive like he has said. The car doesn't have a spoiler on it and the back was cut out to the point that we couldn't put one on. He is using RC4Less tires and I am not familiar with the compounds. The car was very inconsistent from one lap to the next. At this time he needs the spoiler and some info as to what his tires are to say a Jaco. His car is fast as the rest of us. If his car was consistent then his driving would be better. It ain't no fun driving an ill handling car as we can all relate to.

Whats up Dyno, just buy my stock ride & you'll be set. lol... Next time I have my stock car in Lansing I'll let ya run a pack with it & see what ya think handling wise. When your car is set up right the thing should drive itself. There are so many little details ya have to do to these things to get them right, It would take me all day to type. I have to stop in hobbyhub for some parts tonite on my way to iowa for the weekend. If ya want since im not racing I could prolly look over your car for ya if you want.

I had a Tan(35) on both LF and LR tires... a Gray(40) on the RR, and a black(45) on the RF. In the past I've run Jaco gray on the LF, purple RF, and either two whites in the back or two grays... But like I say, my car has kinda always acted like this, even in many differnt configurations... (which may lead to the spoiler thing, since I'm not sure I ever ran both a spoiler and a rear wing, at least not in recent past)

Thanks for the offers Frank... I will be there tonight.

Mel, I think your being a bit modest to say your not a hotshoe... you may not win the A-Main every week but your surely contending for it each week...

Just to make it clear... I've always had pleanty of help available be it, Frank, Mel, Jamie, Ernie, Keith, Dave, Greg, Mike, Walter, etc... In fact I'm not sure anyone I've ever asked for help and/or avice has ever turned me down... I'm probably just to stubern and/or wanting to figure it all out on my own to listen to all the advice, or to put it all to good use, not to mention I was having more fun tuning motors...

Now that I'm running brushless, it has forced me to figure out the chassis stuff...

Glen, I think Frank has hit on something there. Buy a car from someone like him all set up and ready to go. Then you will have a good handling car, and you can work on all the other stuff that you may not get the oppurtunity to work on due to the way your car is right now. Many people have done this, and they are now "hotshoes".
What I've seen some people do, is at a national race, offer to buy the winner's car as is - body, servo, tires, and all - at the race. 9 times out of 10 he is sponsored by the company that makes his car, and he wil be willing to sell it to promote that product. It may not be cheap, but your going to spend at least 500 bucks at least on one of these things to get it to that point. We race with a few people that have done that in years past. And it has really paid off for them. The key is to get it right then and there, so they don't get the chance to take the "good" stuff out of the car.
See you at the track tonite.

Hey Dyno I race with Racin Steve quite often and I believe he told me the Right side of the car is for the entry of the corner and the left side is for exit..... I believe in one of your last posts on the other page you had it confused!!!!!! I believe thats what he told me I could be having a memory lapse though hahah

Wheeler

Thought I'd give a little update on my situation... I'm not sure I've cured my ills, but I found a couple things that surely were not helping...

First... I had two differnt ride height adjusters in the rear pod. The one on the left was making the rear pod like .040" lower on that side. This I'm sure was a major factor in my recent problems, but doesn't really explain why it's seems I've always suffered from being really loose after I pass the apex... Obviously this was a huge problem while it was like this, which was probably for the past two weeks or so.

Next, and I'm not exactly sure when this happend, but I really don't think it was happening for too long, and may have only just happened this past Friday... I had a stressed rear axle that was not fully broken, but was not really fully intact either. The problem is/was right at the point where the aluminium peice that the diff assembly works off of... right were the little pin goes though that peice and the axle. I really think this happend Friday night either when I had a major traction roll, or when I caught a object sticking out of the wall on the back stretch as I was scrubing along the wall...

Now, after I corrected both of those issues, I was handling better, but I was slow as molassas, so I know I've still got other issue, or new ones to deal with. I really won't know any more I don't think untill next week when I go racing again.

I also fixed my rear shock geometry problems, and those clearly were causing me issues. Basicly I was unable to get things stiff enough with the geometry I had previously back there.

if it is 'slow as molassas', the nthe car must be scrubbing alot. I ran brushless at the vinton race this weekend, my 2nd time running brushless. i gotta say, with all motors equal, corner speed is EVERYTHING in this class, just like stock. Dyno, I would guess that the car has alot of steering throw being used to get the car to turn. Personally, i run the steering throw very low and work on getting the car to run wide open (for stock, esp) w/ that amount of throw. just some thoughts....

Scott Johnson

I've got the dual rate turned down to like 35%... the max turning radius is about 5 feet, that is I can just barely get turned around under using the full width of the track.

It is obvious the car is loosing speed in the corner... I have no doubt about that, but I don't think it's cause I have too much steering throw.

by full width of the track, do you mean full width of the lane? if so, do you use all of that amount in the corner?

try a pr of TM white rears, a TM grey or green LF, and a TM purple right front, works great in 4 cell stock and 4 cell 19turn

Yeah I mean full width of a lane... No I don't use all that to go around the corner.