I have been out of RC for a while but really miss the Racing! DO NOT miss all the motor work and expense of motors, new brushes, teflonpscers, new arms, lathe, dyno, etc.. I also know for a fact that a lot of the people I have talked to about RC racing were put off by all the motor wok and expense involved, they all just wanted to have fun racing. I see that there was a brushless class at the rEGION 8 Race but was it promoted? I didn't hear about it until after the fact, but as I said I have been out of racing for over a year. I am still reading the forums though and I saw nothing about it until after. I truly believe that brushless is the future of RC and they road to attracting more people to RC Racing. PROMOTE IT! My $.02 ! Ralf 13

Brushless is the way to go!! I started on Jan. 1 at a First on the First race and love it. You can spend your time working on the car set up and NOT motors. Instead of hearing rumors about what somebody did to their motor now it's Man did he have his car set up. I talked to a friend of mine yesterday that attended that race and they had 18 Brushless. The next big race for us is the Spring Fling at Vinton on the 19 and 20 of this month and from what I am hearing there will be more there. They will never replace brushed motors but they give people an option that does not want to get into the motor or brush of the month club. Another thing that impressed me is that the lap times stay pretty much the same when running a killer battery or a fair one. It also lets me go back to running 2 classes at the bigger races since I know only have to play with motors in only 1 car. Love it and HOPE it gets bigger!!!

Hey, the brushless class was on all the flyers, and on our website, and I read plenty of interest on here and some sort of word must have gotten out because it was our third biggest class with 18 entries.

I also know that Kenny B is trying to get a class at the oval nats, even though he doesn't have to. Brushless is also allowed at the carpet onroad nats this year and at the last modified offroad nats it was an exhibition class sponsored by Novak.

So I think it was promoted. What else would you like me to do? I suppose I could run naked through the streets of all our region 8 cities with a sign covering me that says brushless class, but then most people would think I don't wash myself.

Later,
Alex Sturgeon
Region 8 director.

Promote it on these web sites! Get on the Oval Track Discussion site, the Brushless Motors site, the Oval Racing General Discussion site, the Oval Race Events site, General RC Discussion site, and talk about it as a ROAR official. The last time I viisited the ROAR web site and looked at the rules I didn't even see a mention of brushless, did I just miss it? Encourage the local tracks running under ROAR rules to promote it also. Some of us have been trying to get it going but so far none of the tracks near me (NC or SC) are running brusless classes. I really want to get back into racing but do not want to spend so much time and money building motors. Would rather spend my time working on the chassis, racing, and just having fun. It also appears from what I have been reading that it takes some of the expense of always having to have the "best" batteries to compete. Not everyone checks out all of the tracks and looks at the race flyers, maily the "pros" who travel a lot. It needs to be promoted at the local level so the sport can grow. When I lived in St. Louis I raced with some of the best (Mike Kelm for one) and had fun., even though I was a "B" main racer. I could not however interest any of my friends as the cost and trouble in building and maintaining motors was a put off. If there were more brushless races I am sure the sport would grow instead of stagnating as it has been. Again, this is just my $.02. Ralf 13 (update. After I finished writing this I went to the ROAR web site and it appears that there is something there about brushless, added the day before yesterday!) So far it looks like it is only an extension of the mod class, how about getting it as a class of it's own?

I'm not sure ROAR ever really promotes anything do they? If I'm not mistaken the hosting site is ussualy the one that does the promotion... Not sure it's ROAR's duty to promote one perticular type of power plant over another anyway...

What I don't understand about ROAR and their posistion on brushless is the lack of rules in the 2005 ROAR rulebook as is currently posted on ROAR's web site... It seems to have NO refferance to brushless... yet, last fall it was announced that it would be a new class of motor, yet we still find nothing about it in the current rules.

Having said that, I too am hooked on brushless. I am not without fears about it however... Right now there is basicly one manufactures system in use at our track, that being Novak. I think the motors can be regulated fairly easily, however it's the controlers that I am worried about... Maybe soon they will advance enough that further advances don't matter much, but right now by my observation the Novak and the LRP controlers that have been announced are very limited, and sould easily be improved on. My concerns are that next year, there will be better controlers available, and that they will basicly obsolete the current controlers... The primary reason I beleive this to be true is because there are many signs that there can be many advanced features added to a controler... such as adjustable timing, anti-lock braking, traction control, etc... Adjustable timing is already available on the Mamba-25 and some other higher power controlers that haven't quite made it to the main streem US market. The Mamba-25 is not powerfull enough for 10th scale, but they already have the software nessasary, so it's just a matter of hardware and effort... So, I am 100% convinced that the brushless controlers are just getting off the ground, and racers will need to buy new ones as the technology progresses... the cost of keeping up with the technology is what concerns me... Even so, this is not enough to stop my entuhsiasim for brushless... it's just too much fun with almost no maintainece, which is great.

I just saw the new ROAR document that speaks about brushless being allowed in the modified class... I hadn't seen that when I had posted my previous response... However that previous response is still pretty much valid. ROAR had announced a 'stock brushless' class of motors, and even had some specs listed and published in their newsletter... Maybe they are still working on these things...

I sure hope that there will be a ROAR class that is something less then a 'modified' class of brushless... that is that they will have at least one class that is simmilar to todays 'stock' class, where the motors are restricted to something that a person with moderate skill levels can easily drive, etc...

Dyno - I think I follow what you said, so I want to add something else to the discussion. I don't believe it is the function of ROAR to promote brushless products. It is the manufacturers job to promote that stuff. The drivers will determine the future of something like brushless systems by their interest in those products. The function of ROAR is to provide the definition of the playing field to run these products, and that is now on the website. The opportunity to run these products is now within the modified class. It is up to the drivers to make their choice to run brushless or brushed. I venture to say that if there isn't any significant participation with the brushless equipment, the availability of these products will eventually move to a level where it will loose its opportunity to compete. I am sure ROAR will be watching this and adjust accordingly in the future.

I don't think we are asking ROAR to promote brushless products, just brushless racing. I just looked at the ROAR site and so far they are just giving us brushless racers a place in mod. After reading the rules I can't tell which motor we could run. I don't think that the LRP system is available in the states yet and I am wondering what motors are allowed as of now in MOD? Bothe the 4300 and 5800 Novaks? Or just the 4300? Thanks Ralf 13

Well there aint no way the 4300 will compete with any serious mod racer with a good brushed setup. I highly doubt that the 5800 would compete well either, excpet possibly in a off road or other setting where driving is much more important then motor. The LRP probably isn't going to be all that competitive with good mod brushed motors either, but since I haven't seen one in action, that's just a guess.

Here is what I've observed on carpet oval... We have racers running 4 cell oval pan cars, and a few who run 6 cell trucks. The Novak 5800 in a 4 cell pan car will go almost the same number of laps as a 19turn adujstable timing motor will go in these cars. The 4300 is about 2 or at most 3 laps slower in 4 cell pan car oval on carpet oval, but is deffintely faster then a 'stock' brushed motor is, something like 2 laps faster then 'stock'. In a 6 cell truck oval, the 5800 is very simmilar to a 19 turn motor, I don't know exactly how close, but to my knowlege a brushless system has yet to win a 19turn oval truck race, and has shown very little in the way of being much faster...

So, based on my observations... There ain't no way either of the current novak motors/systems is ready to win any open mod races, unless the driver and/or car are head and shoulders better then their competitors with brushed motors...

Maybe someday somone will have a brushless system that can truely compete with a brushed open mod setup, but it ain't happining now.

What about running 4-cell brushless (4300 motor) against 6-cell stock on the oval? Do you think that would be a race? I am planning on showing up at the local track with my brushless set up and running mod just to get out there and run my car, I really miss racing but as I have said before I DO NOT want to get back into the time and expense of building/running brushed motors. I guess if I can't run brushless I will just sit out and be misserable another year and see what happens. Ralf 13

No, I don't think a 4 cell 4300 will run with a 6 cell stock setup. Well it might, if your driving is good and theirs isn't... but the 6 cell stock should have noticeably better acceleration... Now a four cell 5800 might be a little closer to a 6 cell stock setup.

I'd recomdned just showing up and racing... typicaly local tracks will acomidate you one way or anohter. Run some races, if you start whooping on people they'll have to move you up into a faster class... if your way off the pace, find something slower... Maybe others will see what you've got and buy one themselves, etc...

I know our local track has ben very acomidating to us brushless folks. Currently at leas half of the pan car racers at our track are running brushless... 19 turn can easily be run with 5800 motors. The only real problem is that in the first 30 to 60 seconds the 19 turns will be faster, and in the last 2 minutes the brushless will be faster... over four minutes the laps are almost identical...

What's more interesting is to follow other boards and the discussions you can find there, especially about the brushless motor. It now seems that ROAR is going to allow brushless to be ran with brushed modified motors, the 10 wind maximum is no longer required and to top it off ROAR is considering the brushed motors to be opened up.

A "famous guru of motors" wrote to ROAR: Allow brushed motors to be designed with no restrictions inside the motor. Allow brushed motors to use Neo magnets, 5 or more segment rotors, no size limitations inside the motor and anything else we can find that will work. As long as it meets the ROAR guidelines for ".05" outside dimensions. This measure would keep the entire brushed motor industry competitive longer and allow these motors the same potential for advancement as brushless. Well, it will help. Brushless motors will still take over someday regardless but at least ROAR won't be killing an entire industry in one fell swoop!

The reply from ROAR Prez: From: Rick Wilson--ROAR President

From: Rick Wilson
To: BIG JIM Greenemeyer
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: ROAR's Brushless Motor Rules


"What you are saying is exactly what is being considered for modified brushed motors for 2006. Brushless can not be ignored. They are now IFMAR and EFRA legal. Your point is correct, given this we must be looking at revising modified brushed rules to continue to provide a level playing field.

I appreciate your input and will submit your suggestions as a rule change for 2006".

--Rick Wilson

What else is ROAR planning for our future? Personally who gives a rats XXX what IFMAR and EFRA do? How many of you plan on going over to England, France or overseas next week? Why is it that ROAR has to keep in line with these organizations? Is it ROAR or is the the manufactures that are pulling the "puppet strings"?

If brushless is the wave of the future, fine, but while it's growing, leave MY BRUSHED MOTORS ALONE!!!

This is exactly WHY they need to establish a seperate class for brushless motors, NOT lump them in with the brushed mod motors! Ralf 13

I'v herd some people talking about racing brushless motors and brushed against one another.

They're two different motors, they should have their own classes.

Chris Ulbrik

As far as I know ROAR is the only sanctioning body that has even run an organized brushless class, which was at the 2004 Paved Nats. If theres enough interest for this years carpet nats in April they are planning on running it there also. They are certainly making an attempt to bring in brushless....... more than can be said for some other organizations. The reason it wasn't originally offered on the flyer for the 2005 nats is because the host track decided to run another 1/12th scale class, instead of brushless..... it wasn't ROARs decision.

Hays JR

As far as I know ROAR is the only sanctioning body that has even run an organized brushless class, which was at the 2004 Paved Nats. If theres enough interest for this years carpet nats in April they are planning on running it there also. They are certainly making an attempt to bring in brushless....... more than can be said for some other organizations. The reason it wasn't originally offered on the flyer for the 2005 nats is because the host track decided to run another 1/12th scale class, instead of brushless..... it wasn't ROARs decision.

Hays JR

Hays,

I will say this though that for 2005 ROAR does NOT recognize brushless as a separate class. They combined it in to modified. This is the reason that it is not offered as a class for Nats. It might have been thought about as a class to be offered but NO ONE has ever run brushless at the host track. This also justified not having it. As they have said if you are interested in running brushless at Nats then you need to contact Kenny B or Josh Cyrul and I think 2 people have done that.

Brian

I understand, Thanks hehe kind of hard to have a class with 2 cars I guess, and when nobodys run it at the track before. I'm surprised more people haven't gotten back to Josh or Kenny though.

Hays JR

i understand also brian,but i know of 4 people that had email returned to them from both kenny and josh as undeliverable.hays bring your brushless stuff

Ralf,i understand your frustrations on this brushless thing,but you have 4 of the nicest tracks around within a 100 mile driving distance,and all 4 of these tracks are spec motors and batteries,either 4 or 6 cell,which is the cheapest form possible of 10th scale racing.You still have to keep up with batteries in brushless,don't you? And the motors,if you run 4c its the R brush which lasts forever,just spray them out and break um back in after a run,maybe cut them every 5-6 runs,and 6c,a set of 4383's and orion springs,and you're good to go for 3-4 runs before any maintenance.Spec racing too is all about the chassis,as 99% of us have the same identical either 13 or 17 dollar battery pack,and same 20 dollar motor. Most of the guys around here practice and race on the same 4 packs,and 2 motors is plenty.Just can't figure out what is so hard about that,and we're almost as quick as 4c 19turn 36 degree motors and god'aw mighty high dollar 3300's.

IF there were a brushless class, IT would be the CHEAPEST form of racing! The 4300 system can be had for 175.00 bucks (less on E-bay) and you would not need a lathe, extra brushes and springs, and not have to speend time rebuilding. Going back to St. Louis on a visit the 20th. of this month will race 4-cell brushless with the guys I used to race with. Running the 4300 motor on an indoor carpet track, they say batteries are not important. A group of them ran the 5800 motor in sprint cars (mod class) in the dirt all summer season, didn't have to take the motor out of the car! Don't want to buy another lathe, sprngs, brushes, or spend the time working on motors. Brushlees has already caught on in the midwest. I guess I will find some ROAR tracks that will let me run in mod and do that for a while. Have sent out e-mails to Bountville, MSA, Greenville, and the ARCOR tracks all in TN but close enough to drive to and see what is going on there. Ralf

I saw the post above about brushless in one class. I personally wasn't aware that we as ROAR had agreed to run brushless and open mod as the same class. However it was announced last year that ROAR would (Rev-Up). In addition and to keep in mind IFMAR and EFRA (world and Eropean bodies for R/C) have already accepted the same position.

BUT....I am waiting for the final tally. I have a vote in front of the ExComm to break brushless into its own class for the oval group. This suggestion was after I had attended the ROAR ExComm meeting a few weeks back finding out the history on decisions and with further discussions in the Oval Committee.

I will know midweek on the separate class.

And the posts above lack of response on brushless is correct and very dissapointing. AGAIN I have jumped up and down to get you guys what you wanted and NO RESPNSE is not good. I talked with Josh Wednesday night and he had 2-4 drivers. THis is also pretty close to the 1/12th stock requestes. Step it up if oyu want brushless! Call Halo Hobbies (419) 693-0248 and get Josh your info!

Kenny B
ROAR ExComm

Kenny, I think the lack of responce is in part that the rules were not out untill 3-6-05 and like me many did not want to invest in a motor system that there was the possibility it might not be leagle. That would be compounded for any one heading to a nationals.

I'm still baffled by this push to keep the brushless out of the mod class. Mod is mod and to date the brushless is less powerfull than the brushed. So why the push to seperate them. The ones I see not liking the brushless is the top level drivers that have the advantage in time and $ to stay with the brushed and the motor builders. I can't wait for the LRP system to arrive and I'm getting out of the brushed motors.

This change is important enought to me that right now I'm looking at 2006 to be mod only and stop running stock. I'd like to stop having to buy brushes, springs, motor spray, spending the time cutting motors, having 8 to 10 mod motors and a hand full of stock.

AMEN ! ralf 13

No matter which way it is placed nobody will be happy....in open mod or out of open mod. As a committee it was felt as of right now brushless should remain on it's own. I am not a mod driver and I believe the decision is right at this time.

The lack of response is not totally or even a major part of it. ...you read the three or four other threads and my god oyu would have thought the world was over as brushless in oval and was not included as a class at either regionals or nats. So we have stepped up and took the step took see what level of attendance would be. Right now is not a good time for brushless and brushed mods to be in the same classes. As far as rules....all is needed to be stated is which model number for the time being.

I personally think brushless is great especially someone who has limited time and contraints of work and family....plug and go...tune the car as you practice.

Kenny B

I think brushless should be a seperate class at national and regional events simply because of the limitations in place on price and technology. This is one of the few things that I actually agree with Mr. Provetti on.

Brushed motors have limits in place on them to keep the cost of the product in check. Motor makers can only do so much to make them fast.

I could be mistaken, but Brushed motors are based more on the speed controller, and not the tuning of the motor. Therefore, it may come to a point where brushless motors performance far exceeds that of brushed motors only because the rules limit the brushed motors technology from advancing. What happens then?

You guys have to think about those of us that actually like to work on our motors. That's one part of the hobby that I enjoy. Driving is great, but tuning a motor that's faster than the next guys feels pretty good too. Rarely does that happen in my case, but when it does its a big ego boost.

You might as well nip this in the butt now and seperate the classes. Otherwise you're going to have the motor makers demanding change and the next thing you know, my brushed motors will cost as much as brushless motors, without any change in the cost of maintaining them.

Kenny, I agree you read the threds and the way so many are talking like somthing is unfair. What I keep looking back on is the fact that right now with what is on the market and would qualify for the races like the carpet oval nats, the brushless is a less powerfull system. So what is the great worry about them? Let them run, then revise the rules next year as needed for oval. Oval might just grow as a sport if the total cost to run the motors was less as it might be with brushless. The ammount of motor work for oval is huge! Insted of oval trying to prvent this, maybe they need to encourage it as a way to expand the number of racers that can race it in over the long run.

Looking at what FroBoy about cost, brushed motors cost more now to run if you look at the total cost to run. Say you spend $120 to $150 on the speed control and about $55 on one motor. Your at $175 before you use it. Now add in springs, brushes, motor spray, and lathe, your well over the cost of the most expensive brushless system. Thats assuming one mod motor will last you the same life of a single brushelss. Now also like FroBoy was talking about how he likes to work on his motors and thats ok, but if you look at keeping the sport viable and open to enough people, most of them will not have the time or the money to put into brushed motors.

There seems to be alot of confusion and/or misunderstandings here...

In a previous post by MC43 I beleive he was indicating that he knew of 4 people who tried to send Kenny B. and/or Josh email, but the email got rejected for some reason... that is that there probably would have been more brushless guys sending in their intentions to run, but there seemed to be a problem with email...

ROAR has recently and still is posting a document that would lead a reasonable person to conclude that brushless IS currrently allowed to run in the MOD class... No question about it, I'm surprized Kenny seems unaware of this document, or it's implications...

www.roarracing.com/rules/pdfs/2005brushless-rule.doc (http://www.roarracing.com/rules/pdfs/2005brushless-rule.doc)

At this point... I've seen no document that would indicate that ROAR is ready to or even considering allowing brushless and brushed 'stock' motors to compete in the same class...

That's the end of my comments on what I think has been misunderstood by some folks here...

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Now, I have other comments...

Why does the Oval committe seem to have a strong desire to run totaly differnt motors and/or rules about electric motors then the rest of ROAR? I say and/or ask this based on Kenny's comments and based on their history of doing so... (just look at the Oval 19T rules vs. the non oval 19T rules, or the fact that there WAS a 10 turn limit to non Oval MOD motors(but that seems to have been removed based on the ROAR document I posted a link to above))... I don't think it's such a good idea for ROAR's Oval community and/or commitees to be isolating themselves by requireing differnt rules for the electric motors that get used in Oval racing, then the rules that get used by NON oval classes. That can't be good for the RC sport as a whole, or for electric Oval racing by itself... Perticulary as we step into this new phase of RC with brushless motors...

Mod... Mod should be mod... the can size, maximum retail value, minimum number available for wide distribution, and the fact that it be setup to run from electricity that comes from a legal battery pack, are really the only rules there should be... Let the motor builders decide what is the best... as long as it's reasonably economical to sell and distribute nation wide, etc... There should be NO reason to seperate brushless from brushed in MOD racing...

Also... can we get ROAR to form a set of rules for a limited brushless electric motor that has some fiarly tight restrictions/limitations, one that is easily driven by a moderately talented individual... (The Novak 4300 for example seems like decent speed/performance level for such a class) Please work toward having 'this' same motor be used for oval and non-oval classes, not this for Oval and 'that' for other forums of RC racing... In essense I'm begging for a ROAR "stock brushless" class of motors to be defined... Specificly I would like to see this class of motor be totaly independent of the current "stock brushed" class of motors, and these two classes of motors should NOT be expected to compete side by side...

Racin, Oval and On-road, needs an inexpensive beginners class. I thought that it was supposed to be spec racing, but all the spec racers I have seen have several turbo-35' orGFX's to cylce their batteries, a lathe to re-build them, various extra springs, spacers and what nots, plus a Dyno hooked up to a computer.Depending on if you buy new or used you are talking about 1300 to 2200 dollars not counting you chasis, tires, or rdio. And I have heard all the bull about "oh you don't need a dyno, just a couple of spec motors and a few pairs of brushes", then how come every where you look the racers havew lates and dyno going all the time? TO replace all that stuff all you need is a brushless motor esc, which doesn't cosy much (if any) more than a decent ESC and a spec motor or two. And with the bruhless a couple os spec battery packs and an inexpnsive charge (doesnt'tneed to have a "motor" run feature, or the capability cycle batteries), This would be a lot more cost effective for the new racer whatever he decideds to race, not to mention all the time he wouldn't have to spend rebuilding motors! I know of a few guys who get into the motor building, but to the majority it is a necessary evil. Get with it roar Bring out a class of Brushless Racing ASAP !!! Ralf 13

DynoMohum....

I think I was missed understood or quoted....but to clarify....I was not of the understanding that ROAR had took the positon of runnign brushless and mod together last year. I am aware of the new rules as I was there at the ExComm meeting when they were dicussed a few weeks back.

Regaridng brushless in oval....we have a rule deviation request right now in fornt of the Excomm from the oval committee to not run brushless and mod together. It is understood mod is mod. Too much there to be defined and worked out as the opinion of the committee. MOF it was unanimous to keep mod brushed and burshless motors separate.

As far as two different 19-turn motors....ask the rest of ROAR. Oval had rules implimentated before the other 19 arrived. The oval motors also allow for cross over from ARCOR and NORRCA better now as well. We as a committee had taken the stance of use any 19-turn mod motor based upon any ROAR approved mod motor....too mcuh descepency and headaches. Our attempt was to avoid creating the need for an approved motor list. We still have accomplished this as the 19-turn oval is based on approved mod parts, changed brush hood, spec brush size, full stack, and number of winds. The other 19 has no approved nor submitted motors.

We took a recent vote....two weeks ago....for the oval committee and it was unanimous to keep the current 19-turn rules for stability and crossover. There was no interest in changing the rules.

As far as a ROAR stock brushless....who knows. We'll have separate class in oval for brushless if the deviation is approved. But the international community is putting brushed and mod together (IRMAR, EFRA..). Maybe we can work towards a brushles class based upon approved motors and a mod brushless/brushed class. Buth then look at the brushed builders....they will feel they have a different and confining set of rules. The two motors are diffferent.

We keep trying. One thing to be clarified....oval is not offroad is not onroad is fuel....there is always going to be differences in all the classes.

This is not a critizium[sp?] or anything,just my deal,been racing 16 yrs., have accumulated a lot of stuff,2 turbos a dyno etc., the reason behind this is i've been downsized 3 times in the last 5 yrs.,supposedly to "save" the hobby,from 6c stock,to 4c 19t and now to spec,just to keep doing what i love. so naturally a person will accumulate a lot of stuff. i do know this much,i sat on the pole @ Whipporwill in 1995 with 138 6c stock racers there pitting out of the trunk of a rented pontiac,no dyno,no lathe,and my wife had just bought me my first turbo charger.So yes its nice to have all the stuff,but no it is not necessary. Now if brushless is the savior of r/c i'm all for it,but i'm getting real tired of buying the next saving grace. I hope it works.

Since we are giving opinion and we all know about opinions… I'll give mine ;)

Actually, I’m surprised that ROAR has taken on the whole brushless issue as early as they have. From past experience it seems they have been one of the last organizations to tackle major shifts in rules/technology/classes.

With that said, I see nothing wrong with the approach they are presently taking. As an early adaptor there are bound to be miscues and fairly constant tweaking of rules as we all find out just how brushless fits into RC racing. As a general rule I would think that brushless should be run as separate classes.

Being more specific and having an off-road background, I do think that brushed and brushless can be successful run together in Mod classes. For the vast majority of off-road tracks (and racers) I think that they will pretty much perform equally in the 2WD classes. In the 4WD classes brushed motors will still be preferred until a more powerful brushless motor comes out.

My limited exposure to them in TC and Oval leads me to believe that if brushless is run with brushed motors in Mod that brushed motors will continue to be the motor of choice. In this case it makes sense to have separate classes if the brushless motor wants to nurtured.

Now lets shoot forward about a year. It could be that new brushless motors come on the market that are more powerful and at that point the separate class rules can be revisited. I think the brushless rules process is a work in progress and will be for the next few years.

Now if we look at opening up the rules for Mod brushed motors you can bet that at least for the next year or two you will be back to the motor of the month club that stock had to put up with for so many years. The cost to motor winders could spiral out of sight as new versions of cans, magnets, armatures, etc. are introduced every month… each one with minor but important performance improvements. I’m not sure that is a good idea, but then the long term prospects for them with the increasing popularity of brushless is not encouraging either. I don’t have a suggestion for this, just an observation.

In the end, ROAR is damned if they set some rules now (knowing they will require tweaking) and damned if they don’t adapt some rules. Not everyone will be pleased and all we can hope for are guidelines that help ease us into this new technology.

Thanks hankster! Opinions are always welcomed!

I believe it is important to have rules in place to control the pace of brushless development without making it impossible for BL motor companies to improve upon their products.Keeping the pace of developement in control helps control cost to the racer.Leaving a room for development give the manufactures an incentive to keep improving their products.How to balance the two I have no clue.LOL.

It'a also important to realize you are only talking a few national sanctioned events each year that will use these rules.At lower level races its up to the track to add up to 2 optional classes.This also applies to only a few events for each region.It's my opinion that if you really want to run a ROAR sanctioned race that you will find a class that is suitable to you.There are loads of dynos in the pits that you can spin up your motor if need be and plenty more people that have a lathe that you could borrow.

The real place for BL IMHO is for weekly racing where time always seems to be an issue.This is where you can convince your local track to run a BL class.Get 4 of your buddies together and start a class.Lots of other racers will see how much extra time you have for practicing and smoking(not really good for you) and joking.I even have time to eat at the track now that I've been running BL.I love my BL system for weekly shows,I also love working on motors so at bigger races I will still run them.

Just my observations as an oval racer,off road and on road guys your mileage may vary.

Kenny,thanks for the continued hard work for us ROAR members.

Thanks Kenny for clearing up things about how the Oval committe got where it is and for clearing up your earlier comments about the new brushless document and how it might or might not effect Oval classes...

I still would like to see Oval and Non oval portions of ROAR work more closely together to try and keep motors the same... (however I do agree that Oval's 19T is better/simpler then Non-Ovals, so shame on those non oval guys... :) )

I think Hank's opion given just now is pretty darn good... and/or I agree with pretty much all of what he stated there.

Bob's comments are good too... I will add that the only thing that concerns me about running or encuraging local racers to run brushless when there are no ROAR rules for such a class is... If you start out with brushless and then get good enough and/or want to go to a ROAR event and are forced to run a brushed class because there is no entry level brushless class... then you will be in for a major change that will be very difficult to overcome... That is, if you don't have the skills and tools to get and keep a brushed motor running strong, steping from brushless to brushed will be a major obsticle and would probably prevent most local brushless guys from going to a ROAR event... This is why I really would like to see a ROAR class of brushless that is intended to be for guys who don't want to run with the BIG boys(full mod class).

I would like to see both local brushless and ROAR brushless continue to grow, and hopefully in sync with one another if at all possible. To me this means developing some set of ROAR brushless rules for a entry level brushless class ASAP, even it is a work in progress.

Dyno's got some good points to have a lower rated brushless class for those of us that are less talented... and I'll throw myself into that group :) I'd also like throw out one more wacky idea here and see where it sticks… and also to just get some of those ‘ol brain cells active.

From an off-roaders point of view, I would like to see the wind limits dropped from brushless. Set up a cost limit, can/shaft size and plug specs and let it go from there. In the majority of cases traction is the limiting factor so you do get to a point where more power is not better. With soon to be “legal” 3700 cells (or even the present 3300 cells), run time would not be a problem even with much more powerful brushless motors.

This would put electric racing on par with nitro racing where they have more power then what can be used. In a couple of years LiPo batteries will become much more widespread and I could easily imagine 20 minute electric off-road mains with nitro like performance.

We also have to remember that the wind limits were enacted because of the problem of motor wear (comms and brushes) with very low turn motors. It got to the point where new armatures were needed every couple of runs in TC. With the introduction of the V2 motors this is much less of a problem. You can presently get 20 runs without a rebuild with the V2 motors. Maybe it’s time to revisit the turn limits on brushed motors too?

The thing I am afraid of is just having too many darned classes... this is good for no one as we divide the limited number of racers into ever increasing number of classes. What allowing brushless to run in Mod class has done for me is to allow me to run an extra class that I normally wouldn't run... all I need to worry about is charging a pack, tweaking the setup a little and run... no motors to teardown and rebuild is the only way I would consider running Mod in addition to two stock classes.

Thanks for the input Hanster! ROAR is tryign to stay on course, but at the same time there are reprocussions...trying to maage what we can.

Kenny B