Sometime in the near future I would like to pick up a dyno. I would like to know which one is viewed as the best. Or at least the most acurate. Seems people like the CE turbo dyno's. But they are real pricey and hard to come by. How about the Fantom or Robi. Just wondering what set's them apart? What do the big guys use to build our store bought motors? Maybe a couple of motor builders could chime in here. Thanks in advance guys.

i feel any dyno works fine.. as long as you know what numbers to look for to have a good motor... thats why you can have 5 people with the same dyno, and all 5 read different numbers... whatever dyno you use.. always use it.. that way u know if your making good stuff, or beating a dead horse..

I would like to know which one is viewed as the best.

Who has the best pizza, Pizza Hut, or Domino's?
Best cheapo burgers, BK, or Mickey D's?
Seinfeld, or Friends?
See where this is goin'?

Burbs is right.... "most" people like the dyno they have..
If you learn what your driving style likes with regards to dyno pulls.
you will have consitency in setting your stuff up, no matter
which make you go with.

One thing to consider is, when you finally get one, it may be a good
idea, to get one that most of the guys you race with have.
Then you will have something in common with them, and even though
numbers may vary from machine to machine, the dynamics will be the same.

If you get a Nagahoochi El Supremo, and no one else has one....
The numbers aren't going to mean crap when you talk to the other guys..

Also check to see how good, and how quick you can get your machine fixed,
in the event you hook it up wrong, like can happen fairly easily...

just my opinion, of course.. :cool:

.............

I haven't seen a prop dyno in years. Last one I saw (from a safe distance of course) John Foister had one. It was for modified no less.....

I guess I should have mentioned I am not new at this game. I already know all the obvious stuff. I realize each dyno may give you different readings on the same motor. And I know a dyno is not the end all answer to going fast. What I was looking for was more of a product review from racers who have used them. You know the pros and cons, price, ease of use, durability, acuracy after many runs, etc.

Personally, I wouldn't trust a Fantom dyno as far as I could throw it. We already know that a Fantom can give numbers that are exactly opposite as how the motor performs on the track. Any equipment that gives inaccurate numbers is worse then not using it at all.

fantom dynos work you have to tune them to the power numbers ...I have had some very fast motors off a fantom ..I have a robi now and its just like the fantom actually its slower to tune on cause you have to wait 30 seconds to start the dyno again..ce is the best. It does show more about a motor besides its rpm so you know what motors can swing a bigger gear.Its just a shame there over priced...

Sometime in the near future I would like to pick up a dyno. I would like to know which one is viewed as the best. Or at least the most acurate. Seems people like the CE turbo dyno's. But they are real pricey and hard to come by. How about the Fantom or Robi. Just wondering what set's them apart? What do the big guys use to build our store bought motors? Maybe a couple of motor builders could chime in here. Thanks in advance guys.Check out CS electronics, you dont need a laptop(although usefull to see the power and tourque curves, its compact, its a flywheel dyno, its easy to use, and more accurate being it runs at 7.2 volts inlike the Fantom. you can run it off of your battery packs you race with or a power supply, I like using my race packs because it gives a better actual pull on the motor when you use it with what you run! Dont waste your money on the orion or integy, the CS runs about 400 to 500 depending on where ou buy it. check it out, its eimilar to the robi. www.cs-electronic.com (http://www.cs-electronic.com) and is imported by schumacher thats my .02

I'll stick with my robi.

I personaly like the Robitronic best, I feel it's very repeatable and the results seem to be quite accurate. I love the fact that I can dump all the data to my computer and analyze it backword, forward, sideways, or any way I could imagine to look at it.

Not sure I could trust a Fantom further then I could kick one...

The CS is likely to be very inconsistant depending on what you use for a power source to power the test motor...

The CE TurboDyno is very accurate(as far as I can tell), realitively repeatable, and in no way does the slave motor create any real problems for it's accuracy. If the slave becomes worn, your results may become somewhat inconsistant, but it is very noticable and you simply rebuild the slave. The load sensor measures the actual torque and another sensor measures RPM (the only two things you need to determin power), this is why the slave motor has virtualy no bearing on how accurate the TurboDyno can be. The only reason I don't prefer the TurboDyno over the Robitronic is that I can't get as much data from it, and the data you do get can't be sent directly to a computer for further anyalisis...

fantom dynos work you have to tune them to the power numbers ...I have had some very fast motors off a fantom ..I have a robi now and its just like the fantom actually its slower to tune on cause you have to wait 30 seconds to start the dyno again..ce is the best. It does show more about a motor besides its rpm so you know what motors can swing a bigger gear.Its just a shame there over priced...

Why do you have to wait 30 secs? I don't on mine or have ever heard of this?

On the robi It will say please wait and start to count down on the box.
All robi's have the delay on them I believe. But honestly how can you unstrap e motor, make a change to it and re-strap it in, in under 30 seconds anyway.

I haven't seen a prop dyno in years. Last one I saw (from a safe distance of course) John Foister had one. It was for modified no less.....

LOL the Foister Crop Duster... LOL I can still remember that thing from back in the late 80's....he would turn that thing on and all the banners would start flying, stuff would blow out of peoples pits etc etc... LOL

I think that the track is your best dyno!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

On the robi It will say please wait and start to count down on the box.
All robi's have the delay on them I believe. But honestly how can you unstrap e motor, make a change to it and re-strap it in, in under 30 seconds anyway.

I see now, I misread his post,I thought he was talking about the fantom. I have to agree with Davepull, the really really best dyno is my orion lap counter,and the track.

I think that the track is your best dyno!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I like to work on my stuff during the week in my spare time. I don't have a track here at home. I just don't have the time to spend at the track trying stuff. I think a dyno is a good way of finding things to make a motor go. Of coarse it has to be proved on the track.

I have never had trouble with my Fantom being innacurate. You just have to look at the right numbers, like what the motor is at around 25 amps (some look at higher than that, around 27) and the amp draw at the end of the run. I've had 68 powers that I wouldn't think of bolting in my car because they sucked at 25 amps.

tom

what #s are you looking for at 25 amps? i've had a tough time figuring these things out on my fantom. good power doesn't mean much.

On mine 59 is good, 60+ is excellent at 25.
Steve Salvas and Chris Walsh were using my dyno a couple weeks ago at Barre VT and I believe they were looking at the power numbers a bit higher than 25.
I look for 12 or less amps at the end of a run and on a T30 at 2 volts with a fan 8-9.5 amps. This is just what works for me.

interesting, thanks alot!

Hankster - Why the bad attitude toward the Fantom dyno? You're usually a level headed guy with reasonable statements. Your comments about the Fantom unit are uncharacteristic of you. Please share your experience. Thanks

Kevin

Compare the wattage numbers between a Binary and a Monster and the performance on the track. Example: http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=632622&postcount=69

...........

Sure it matters. If a dyno shows a motor is better then another motor, it should run better on the track. At the point where a piece of equipment (any equipment) gives false information then how can you trust any information that it gives?

The next main failing of the Fantom is that it uses 5v and not 7.2 volts.

...........

PanMan anod others regarding the Fantom and/or Hank's negitive comments about it...

Many people feel the Fantom is less then accurate in the numbers it gives. Myself included... and I beleive even Todd Puttnam is on record as not beliving the Fantom's numbers. Now, quite frankly if I wen't myself, I wouldn't nessasarly give my word any more credit then the man in the moon... I won't debate Hank's knowlege or intrgrity about such matters... and from what I've heard and read, I give Todd Putnam ALOT of credit for his knowlege about motors, dynos, and all things related...

Meanwhile... I have done ALOT of testing and comparing of Fantoms dyno numbers, and they just don't appear to be accurate. In fact I have probably offended many a Fantom user's sensiblity by basicly stating that the fantom's numbers are bogus...

The best example of how a Fantom Facts machine does not reflect the real proformance of a motor is when you start comparing a 19 turn motor with adjustable timing. (same is true for other winds, just that 19 turn motors have alot of data to work with)... Take a 19 turn motor, set it to zero degrees timing, test it on a Fantom. Then take a really hot high RPM modern 'stock' motor and test it on the fantom. In many cases the Fantom will tell you that the 'stock' motor puts out more power then does the 19 turn at zero timing. Now, go look at the track records all over the USA for stock classs and zero degree 19 turn class... On the track the zero degree 19 turn will crush any stock motor out there...

Test those same motors on a CE turbodyno, or even a Robitronic dyno, and you will see that the 19 turn at zero degrees has significantly more power then does a good stock motor. Which is more in line with what the track testing will show you...


Now I realise that there are a ton of Fantom users out there that can go really fast, and have come to really love their Fantom Facts... I have no doubt that a person can use a Fantom to achive some good results... however I don't belive this should be equated as proof that the Fantom is accurate in it's numbers... Only that some pepole have managed to make good use of a flawed machine.

The Track And A Stopwatch Is The Best Dyno There Is. No Matter What You Do To A Motor It Aint Gonna Run If Your Car Is Crap. The Dyno Is Nothing But A Comparision Anyway. They Are A Good Tool If Used Correctly. Most Of The Time They Are Not.

Ritchie Mac

Well... clearly 'you can't fire a canon from a cannoe'... but then most motor builders wouldn't be without your dyno either.

Still I Say The Best Dyno Is The Track!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Case Closed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ritchie Mac

The best example of how a Fantom Facts machine does not reflect the real proformance of a motor is when you start comparing a 19 turn motor with adjustable timing. (same is true for other winds, just that 19 turn motors have alot of data to work with)... Take a 19 turn motor, set it to zero degrees timing, test it on a Fantom. Then take a really hot high RPM modern 'stock' motor and test it on the fantom. In many cases the Fantom will tell you that the 'stock' motor puts out more power then does the 19 turn at zero timing. Now, go look at the track records all over the USA for stock classs and zero degree 19 turn class... On the track the zero degree 19 turn will crush any stock motor out there...

Test those same motors on a CE turbodyno, or even a Robitronic dyno, and you will see that the 19 turn at zero degrees has significantly more power then does a good stock motor. Which is more in line with what the track testing will show you...
.

Amen DynoMoHum

Example
Typical Stock on Fantom 60-72 watts
19T @ 0 degrees (w/o zapping timing into it) - 60-66+ watts
19T @ 36 deg - 92-100+

On a Robi
Stock - 120-130W
19T @ 0 deg - 165-170W
19T @ 36 - 175-185W

we all know that the fantom dyno gives bad numbers my question is why don't they fix it?????????????

we all know that the fantom dyno gives bad numbers my question is why don't they fix it?????????????

Maybe they don't think they need fixing...

Think of it this way.
They have sold thousands of them.
You see plenty of them at the tracks.
There are a half a dozen people here that think they are shit.
They probably get a ton of letters and feedback telling them that
customers are happy with their product.
What would you do?

I have one. Got a good deal on <a href=http://www.dpbolvw.net/click-1606754-2202639 target=_blank>eBay</a><img src=http://www.awltovhc.com/image-1606754-2202639 width=1 height=1 border=0>.
I am not a professional.
I do not run 19T, so that is a non issue with me.
I run 4 cell, so the 7.2V readings are not an issue with me.
And for those that think the best dyno is the track, I might
offer that you take a trip to Moorseville and spend a morning
down there. All you will here, especially right now, is the sound of the
dynos running about 10 hours a day, from all the NASCAR shops.

I can change springs, and see a difference.
I can change brushes, and see a difference.
I can tell when a motor needs attention.
That's really all I expected out of it.
Probably all I'm smart enough to understand.

Maybe they are geared for people like me. A reasonable price, something
fun to fool with during the week. Something that gives comparative results.
All the other high end ones, are for those not like me.
The ones that go to nationals, and win tons of A-Mains,
and don't mind spending a lot of money on this stuff....

Personally, I wouldn't trust a Fantom dyno as far as I could throw it. We already know that a Fantom can give numbers that are exactly opposite as how the motor performs on the track. Any equipment that gives inaccurate numbers is worse then not using it at all.

hNAK i TRY TO COACH SOME FOLKS IN USEING THE FANTOM DYNO AT A LOT OF TRACKS I GOT TO RACE AT.
the main screen page is basicl "bubble gum" info....don't mean a thing, and it aint worht the time it takes to read it...the software is taking an rpm percentage and figuring out wha it feels the "peake range" to be...this is again WORTHLESS info...you need to know tha amp values that your particular track puts you motor into, then seach out those specified amp values, and compare numbers....my dyno...when use in this described fashion has yet to let me down....he roll out calculator program again uses an rpm percentage to make it's sugestion....in a lab..this theroyapplies, but on the track it takes a bit more applied knowledgethan this program is capble of dealing wiht...the program does not know, how effict your chassis is, how tight the turns are, the degree of banking, or you ability to drive a line...so again..BUBBLE GUM" is the best adjective here.
basicly dyno's are tool, that if you dont know how to use it, it is worthless to you.
In summarry, motors don't race at peak rpm...on the contrary, no where near that.....if they did, tracks that had records of 50 laps would see tripple diggits, and we would all be running near 50 mph acctual in stock 4 cell

Robi is a very good dynop also, but myself, I have never used one, so until I were to familarize myself with one...again it would be a worthless tool..sort of like giving a cave man a jack hammer to carve stones with.....best you could hope for is some funny looks and a bit of impromtoo comedy.

But agin it is alos as high or higher quality that a fantom. it just uses a different type of thology to arrive at it's conclusions, and also allows the user to choose some of the test parametters applied, where the fantom is fixed....the CE is the dyno that realy just tells how effiecint a motor is at different loads..and that depends on the everchanging condition of the load/slave motor...which is why I recomend that dyno for mod racers who want more detailed info than a turbo chargers motor run can provide..as most mods are just too hard on the the dyno...and the dyno run is so hard on the motor that once the "pull" is completed the motors condition has changed enough as a result of that pull , to make it again..."bubble gum" info

Dan stated that the Fantom works fine for him... in part because it shows him that something changed when he changes springs, brushes, etc...

The problem with that is that there is no way to know for sure if the Fantoms numbers that are changing are good or bad... the data is not accurate. Maybe you can figure out a way that you can determin that the change was good based on the dyno and track data... but then you could probably do the same without the dyno data since there really is no way to know for sure if the changes you see in in the Fantom data are truely good or bad by themselves.

The example of the 19 turn thing was just to show how inaccuarte it can be... You'll see the same inaccuracys when dynoing stock motors on it too. Maybe not as obvious inaccuracys, but they are there.

The same thing is true of Oval4ever's method... Today you may feel you have the magic number/amp spot that tells you what makes a good motor and/or a bad one (or better or worse)... but change a the track, or the cells used, or the gear used, and you really don't know your always going to be racing at that same amp draw, and eventualy that method will fail. Or you will have to keep evaluating your situaion and finding a differnt magic number for the situation you find yourself in... A good dyno should not require those kinds of things to be helpfull.


As for the slave/load motor on the CE.... IT HAS NO BEARING on the numbers you get, unless it gets really bad, but then you will notice imediately that your readings will not be stable... The whole argument of using CE's load motor as a negitive because it effects the numbers is really a non issue... Now it may require that you ocasionaly have to do maintaince on the slave/load motor, and you don't like that, now that would accurate and I would consider that to be a valid posistion to hold. but not that it causes inaccuarcys in the data under typical use.

I do agree that the TurboDyno can be very had on the motor being tested... but then so can any dyno... I personaly thought the TurboDyno was/is harder on test motors then the Robitronic is.

dynomohum,
what about the heating up of the slave/load motor? if you run several motors back-to-back, the slave motor heats up and changes to readings, worse each time. that is probably the biggest advantage of a flywheel dyno. and, as for the 19 turn-0 looking bad on the fantom, how many amp loads are the wattage outputs being looked at? i believe the biggest problem w/ dyno's is that everyone tries to use the data at 1 point of load...or, at best, they try to look at several readings at various amp loads and somehow 'compile' them and come up w/ a result. I have been playing w/ an excel spreadsheet that compiles the wattage outputs over a range of amp load settings. when this is done, the 19-0 dominates a stock motor on the fantom dyno. its power curve is extremely flat, allowing it to pull thru the corners better than any stock motor, which is the same thing that occurs on the track.

The only thing the slave motor does is put the load on the motor being tested. As long as the slave motor can hold the motor being tested at the proper amp load it will have no effect on the readings. Heating makes no difference if the slave motor is in good shape. NO readings are taken from the slave motor. It is very easy to see when the slave motor needs rebuilding.

We can also look at the effect the battery powering a Fantom has on the readings. Use it a dozen times in a short time and the battery can no longer supply the required amperage needed... or at least the same amperage as before.

Like Hank said... the slave motor heating up and/or using differnt amounts of current to control it should not have any effect on the TurboDyno's numbers. The slave motor simply acts as a brake of sorts, the amount of braking it provides simply has to be enough to make the test motor draw a certian number of amps, torque, or RPM. No readings are taken directly from the slave motor. When the slave motor gets bad, it becomes very inconsistant and you won't be able to get your amp, torque, or RPM step to become stable during the test, but this becomes very obvious, and a experianced TurboDyno user simply stops using the dyno and rebuilds the slave motor... As long as the slave motor can provide a second or so of stable readings for each step in the test, then all will be well.

The Fantom... I simply can not trust any of it's data, so no matter what point you pick to use, I still feel it's basicly arbitrary as to wether or not it tells you what you really need to know. Sure it may work if you choose the correct point for your current race condtions/situation, but in RC racing your condtions are constantly changing, at least a little. It's also belived that RPM may play a significant role in the numbers the fantom gives... that is as the RPM charactoristics of your motors change, the accuracy and/or how far off the torque and/or power numbers may change... hence high RPM motors typicaly look alot better on a Fantom then do low RPM motors... But then there also seems to be a point when too much RPM is not good either. That became apparent when the Binary 'stock' motor came out, it seemed that it was too high of RPM for the Fantom's fickle ways. If the data isn't accuarte at all points, then no mater what point you pick, it's kinda like pinning your hopes on a dream that may not ever come true.

I don't deny that lots of people have managed to go very fast using the Fantom to guide them in at least part of their efforts... I just think that the Fantom wasn't likely to be the most prominent factor in making them go fast. More then likely it was just hard work on their part, and I personaly wouldn't give much if any credit to their use of the Fantom 'Facts' machine itself in what they ultimately achived.

Do you not feel ANY dyno is just another tool to help you go fast? I've ran motors from the turbo that the motor man said should fly and they were junk,and the same goes for the fantom......3 things;1-It's all in how you use the tools that you are given,2-the amount of money you have to spend,3- the knowledge you learn using that particular tool.

,3- the knowledge you learn using that particular tool.

I have had my dyno for about 3 years and recently starting picking up on some key #'s to look at. So its always an on-going learning experience

i've said it b4 i still think the track is the best dyno after you know what works in a motor.

ritchie mac

I owned a turbo dyno for years and then a Fantom,honestly I have been faster since I quit using either and spent more time thinking about what really matters......car SETUP.
The turbo dyno works well for the limited info it produces,and the fantom works well if you take the time to relate track testing to info gathered.
Making a motor fast is the easiest part of elctric car racing if you ask me.
It always kills me when I see people bash the Fantom knowing full well there are guys handing it to them on a regular basis that use a Fantom dyno.
Do you think it's an accident those guys are fast?I mean they can't be using that worthless dyno right:rolleyes:
And to be fair there are several things that will effect readings on a turbo dyno,dirty slave motor,dirty rpm sensor,I even had trouble once when the paint on the motor coupler wore off{that's where it picks up rpm}
Also when you rebuild the slave motor the routing of the wires to the slave is critical,as is the way you hold the motor in the cradle when spinning up a motor.
I have seen two turbo's of the same vintage be ten watts different on the same motor so just as with the Fantom you can't compare numbers from dyno to dyno.
If there was any money in it I have no doubt that some modern high tech electronic genius could make something far better than either and probably cheaper to boot.

HERE, HERE!!!!!!!!!

My opinion exactly, Herb.

Well, choice of dyno aside... one thing I can say with complete certianty after several years of fiddling with dynos, and motors... The motor has much less to do with going fast then what many people think. In fact I would say that the motor has probably no more then 10% of a factor in the total effort to go fast.

I agree DynoMoHum
I have always thought 90% chassis, 5% motor, 5%Vol-tahj

Everytime someone wins a National, you never hear, man he had killer rip, or killer sticks, you always here, man his car was good through the turns !!

I bought a used Fantom on ebay and I run it with a trickle charger and lawn tractor battery. I had an old TI laptop sitting around so other than the battery and charger, I didn't need to invest much more to get up and running.

It does exactly what I want it to do with stock motors. I'm new at 4-cell oval racing and it allows me to now concentrate on set-up because I know I will have good motors (at least at my ability level).

But to be honest, now that I know how to set-up a monster stock, the only thing the dyno confirms is I didn't screw something up. :)

As many people said, the dyno is just another tool in the over all scheme of things.

Mike

For all the dyno heards out there, I have a question for ya.

I use the robi dyno. On it's gear calculator (which currently I dont use), I noticed the robi by default uses the 30 amp torque step RPM (from the top table) as the RPM factor. Why is this factor used and what does it represent?

I use the 20 amp steps on the bottom table to gear my motors.
So for my example:
Motor X is 22125 RPM at the 20 amp step (bottom of table amp steps).
Motor Z is 26287 RPM at the 20 amp step. (bottom of table, amp steps)
4000 rpm difference is about 3-4 teeth in gearing.

But when I look at the gear calculator:
Motor X is 26102 RPM at the 30 amp (top of table, Torque steps)
Motor Z is 26598 RPM at the 30 amp (top of table, Torque steps)
Now the motors at this step do not look much different so gearing would be much closer if not the same rollout.

I guess my overall question is which should I use to gear? 30 amp torque step rpm or 20 amp rpm?

Note: The 20 amp RPM is the amp step which is a totally different table than the 30 amp torque step RPM step I mentioned.

My question is similar to erock's. At which amp reading should I be gearing with my turbodyno?

It just depends on the track.

DETERMINE AVERAGE MOTOR AMPS OF YOUR CAR

First, run a cycle on the battery pack using the same charge routine you would on race day and a discharge rate of 30 amps(what you normally use,25,35). Record the discharge time of the pack. Next, right after racing, discharge the rest of the pack using the TurboThirty, record the time left over and put the values in the following formulas:

(CYCLE DIS. TIME) - (DIS. TIME AFTER RACE) = (DIS. TIME USED)



(DIS. TIME USED) X (DIS. RATE) ÷

RACE TIME (SECONDS) = AVERAGE MOTOR AMPS

Use the closest amp reading of the motor to select gear....