I have always ran stock for many years. I am thinking about attempting 19 turn. Is it much different tweaking a 19T? How do I know what to set the timing at? Will there be a ballpark range to stay within for a particular track or can timing vary greatly from motor to motor?

I have a Fantom-based dyno that I used for stock but will not be able to use it for the 19T cause I don't have a power supply large enough to handle the power requirement. Unless I maybe can use a car battery temporarily. It would be nice to have the dyno available if at all possible.

Any suggestions would be very helpful. Thanks in advance.

Rob

You can still use your dyno. I use a $15.00 lawn mower battery from walmart. Charge it up and it's good for while. It will give you plenty of power for all motors. Including low wind mods. As for timing. With the runtime available put as much as you can in it. Track conditions will have some variances on it. The tracks I run at we can put all the timing we want in them and it works good. Just some info for you.

As far as tweaking goes, it is pretty much the same as stock except they are handwound & most of the winders that produce them have already done the "tweaks" for you. Mike is right though, go out & buy you a decent lawn mower battery, keep a good charge on it & your dyno will work great. A good 19t motor should pull 95 to 105 watts with 1.15 to 1.22 torque on the fantom dyno. Email me if you have anymore questions, I'll do my best to answer them for you.

__________________
Brent Pearcy
Bulit Motorsports (http://www.bulitmotorsports.com/), TQCells (http://www3.sympatico.ca/tqcells/)

The biggest thing I have seen when jumping up and running 19T from stock was the car has to be dead on to get and stay fast in 19T. The motors at least on my dyno whether store bought or motors I got from my sponsor were pretty much the same on my robi dyno, really consistent from build to build. Shoot for some decent amp draw, 4383's, Putnam X, F brush, try and get like 10.5+ amps at 2 volts and you should be okay.

As far as timing, big amp draw banked tracks, 36 deg is the way to go.
For flat sweeping tracks, guys are using 24 and making it work.

Erock I want run a 19t in less it draws 14amps at 2 volts. Reserreated ORIONS are the only way to go. The motor I run in the memorial race pulled 15 amps the biggest it has built yet. Thats with an EPIC a yoke should pull around 12 or so to be fast. This is at full timing. The EPIC was at about 32 degrees I was afraid to run it at 36 pulling over 15. Just make sure you get a good brush. 4383, X Brush, F Brush has worked pretty good for me but I think the ORIONS are the best way to go. Like Erock said try turning the timing down abit for a short track. The main thing to making power is the brush so try to find some good ones. Buy a few pair and try them if they are good buy them all are you are going to be running against them. I like the ORION silver spring on the pos and the ORION red spring on the neg it seems to be consistant from build to build. I don't think you need to spring heavier to make amp draw. Later

Ritchie Mac

oh yea I wouldn't reccomend a DYNO for anything but stock. I think its to much strain on the motor running at that RPM. Let the track be the DYNO. Just go by amp draw. If a motor draws 13 amps one time then it needs to draw that every time. You shouldn't run a 19t more than once. Cut it and reserrate the brushes and check amp draw. There is more work in 19t in the motor department and also chassis work.

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xxxxx

Question.....what does amp draw have to do with the performance of a motor?

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Question.....what does amp draw have to do with the performance of a motor?
The ONLY thing I use amp draw for is repeatibility. I rebuild, then check amp draw @ ZERO timing to make sure it's the same, crank in timing and go racing. Checking amp draw with timing in, just arcs and abuses the com :thumbsup:.

Later, Bret

Amps = HP as simple as that. Why in the world would you want to DYNO a 19t anyway. If it's pulling amps it will run. Ask anybody that has seen my 19t car run at Sandhills thay will tell you it's Ballistic. All I do is cut the comm and reserrate the brushes and I get instant AMPS. I've said this earlyier it's all in the brushes thats the key to makeing power. Why put the motor through the abuse of a DYNO run you just got all the good out of it. I'll make you a bet if you build one my way and run it on the track it will be quicker then running it after a dyno run. trust me i've already tested it. Oh yea I run KCR HP!!!!

Ritchie Mac

I won't pretend to know all there is to know about making a 19turn motor run fast, pertcularly once it's straped in a car, but amp draw at no load means very little...

Saying that you can tell how powerfull your electric motor will run with no load on it, is like saying you can tell how powerfull a gas engine will be based on how much gas it consumes at a idle... while it may tell you a little about the motor and how it may proform, it's not going to tell you all you really need to know about it's overall proformance...

Same is true of stock motors and even full mod...

The Jet's comments about repeatability are note worthy... if you haven't changed much... the amp draw at the same timing with the same brushes and springs should be pretty consistant... Once you change something it could all change...

Ask anybody that has seen my 19t car run at Sandhills thay will tell you it's Ballistic. All I do is cut the comm and reserrate the brushes and I get instant AMPS. I've said this earlyier it's all in the brushes thats the key to makeing power. Oh yea I run KCR HP!!!!

Ritchie Mac
Imagine if you had Putnam power :p :cool:

I'd have to agree with Bret the Jet!!!!!!!

I said it on the F-Brush thread amp draw is not the key to running up front, getting the car fast without the amp draw is the key. Richie Mac is a very accomplished racer, and I am no means bashing what he is saying, because he is fast and knows whats works for him.

Everytime I have broken a track record in stock, it was with a motor drawing between 8.5 and 10 amps, any more and any less the motor just wouldn't run. In 19 turn, the last time I broke a track record I had my motor set to draw only 8 amps at 2 volts. I could get insane amp draw if I wanted, but the motor never seems to run, it gets hot and loses 1 to 2 tenths more per run. This is just what I have found.

As far as the set-up I run on my 19 turns, red springs both sides, positive bent a little stiffer, Putnam-X brushes, 24 Degrees timing (flat track, I would use 36 on larger banked tracks). Break the motor in a 2 volts with a fan for 400 seconds. Deglaze the brushes, re-spring, run for 60 seconds at 1.5 volts, and go racing. Break the motor in at 0 like the Jet said, and add the timing right before you bolt it in the car. I am getting 3 to 4 runs before I cut the comm, probably could get more, I just de-glaze the brushes after every heat and clean to motor using motor spray, make every time you take the brushes out you run the motor for at least 30 seconds on a turbo 30 before putting it back in the car. Hope that helped.

Jeff Patch
Putnam Propulsion
TQ Cells

Hey Jeff, Saturday night with 24 degrees, I started with 3.1's and finished with 3.2's...Breaking the track record, how's that for not falling off, AND it was a 5 minute race :thumbsup:.

Later, Bret

That's because the Jet's the man!!!! How come I have a sneaking suspicion that there was a mad scientist behind it all........ hmmmmm........

I was going to try and make it up to the race in glens falls, but the wife and I just bought a house, and if I want to go to the ARCOR Open at Classic and the ROAR nats I need to be saving some money. We're going to be having a big race down here in jamestown on the 19 of FEB. I am going to ge a thread going here on hobbytalk as soon as all the details are worked out. It would be nice if I could get some more of the Putnam crew down he for some good ol flat track racing..........

I, for one do not believe that more amp draw=more wattage. I'm not claiming "my way" is the only way to make HP, just that more amps doesn't directly equate to more power...That's what makes the world go round...different strokes for different folks. I guess as long as you can build HP, it doesn't matter how. :thumbsup:

As far as the Orion brush, I bought a boatload when the 4383 was discontinued, prior to releasing our X Compound Brush. We tested them on the track and on the dyno, and wasn't convinced that this was the final frontier in brush compounds. If it was far superior, we all would have all been using them all along,(instead of the old 4383's,) IMO. I think the Orion's were some of the best of what was available at that time the 4383's were discontinued.

Regardless, different opinions are healthy. If we all thought the same way, life and racing would take the form of a cookie cutter.

Besides, once everyones stash of Orion brushes are gone, I stand to make a handsome profit selling the stockpile of the Orion brushes we have left here. See, then we'll all be winners in the end...:dude:

Regards,
Todd Putnam
Putnam Propulsion

I, for one do not believe that more amp draw=more wattage.

To back up what Todd said I know on my robi dyno, Most 19T's are very similar to each other in Watts, RPM and Torque. Even the bigger amp draw motors I am not seeing bigger numbers, almost every motor goes 177-183 watts. RPM only seems to increase as Com size gets lower.

Hey Todd why don't u send a few of them my why.LOL!!!!!!!!! I like your X Brush but I've had some problems with them being spit out in mod then they get burnt. Not sure what is causing this but I don't have a problem with anything else. I got about 50 pair of the first batch and some other mod guys had the same problem at Sandhills. G-Honey, Ziggy,Russel. Not sure if it was just the batch or if it Sandhills it's rough on mod motors. I know I got a couple of pair from EA a while back when he was at Sandhills and I ran them in mod and didn't have a problem. Anyway your right about opionions. I still don't like Dynoing a 19t motor at the track now if you are tuneing them at home just to find the right combo thats cool. I always liked it when someone would put a mod on a dyno it's funny. You never saw people run so fast in your life. 7t with a run away fly wheel = headach.LOL!!!!!!!! I've found that if a motor pulls amps it will run. I know there will be exeptions but in general they will. I'll just build a motor and check amp draw. Put it in car and run. Come back rebuild with diff brush and run again. I let the track be my dyno. I guess i could speed things up be just dynoing but all you are really doing is compareing numbers anyway so why not compare lap times. Plus you can be getting your car dialed. Maybe I'll run into you at the birds and we can discuss this somemore.

Ritchie Mac

Ritchie,
Yes, I'd like to discuss motors anytime...Not sure what you mean by "spitting out" a brush, (hung brush?)... If this is the case, it's normally a bad or dirty hood, assuming the shunt is free and not getting hung on anything. Those guys you mentioned should be able to install brushes properly...:cool: heh heh..
I absolutely agree that the track is where it matters, but if you can replicate/simulate what happens on the track with a dyno, you can learn and test a whole lot more. Besides, I can dyno 24/7 if I choose, whereas track time is limited.
Maybe I'll see you at the Birds...

Todd Putnam
Putnam Propulsion

yea i'll look 4 ya at the birds.

Ritchie Mac

Ok Guys What Do You Think ,less Amps More Gear Or Mucho Amps Less Gear.???????????????????

how much more gear for 24 deg timing vs 36. I currently run any where from a 39 to a 42 depending on tire and which motor I have in the car @ 36 deg

I think I remember reading here a while back that you add .2 to your roll out when going from 36 to 24. Example: 2.0 roll out for 36* = 2.2 roll out for 24*.

Anybody want to comfirm, deny, or correct that?

Add about .30 to your roll out when going from 36 to 24 degrees...roughly 5-6 teeth.

Todd Putnam
Putnam Propulsion

My ultra bird 19t fell off the other night 2 minutes thru the 3rd heat went from low 3.5's to 3.8's.. I took it off and dyno'd it and it had fell from 22900 rpm 92 power to 18200 rpm 74 power?? I took it apart trued the com and re serrated the brushes same exact reading on the dyno? Last night I re trued the com put new x brushes in it and same thing?? Its getting hot just breaking it in at 2 volts??? I am thinking the arm is shorted cause it is making dark spots on the com at the beginning of each segment after about 30 SECONDS of run time breaking it in?? The dark trail's off to nothing then starts over at the next segment.. I just bought the motor last week and its only got 4 runs.. Pretty bad $50+ investement if you ask me.. LOL

The motor isnt bound up in any way..

I had an ultra do the same thing but mine only cost me 25 bucks. I don't know what happened to it it only had like 10 runs on it. mine started making a funny noise 2 min into a run the fell flat @ the 3 min mark. I tried that arm in a different can and it did the same thing. now that motor is in my brush factory!!!!!!!!!

Do anyone have anything good to say about this motor and what brushes are you using in it.

The ultra bird is a good motor just needs to have the magnets rezapped after every run .......For the Birds run 24 degrees [makes the mag last longer and run alot of gear like 2.80 to 2.90 ......run 4383 brush or ORIONS and a 130 degree spring and a 150 degree springs from KISBEY .......

SRM

My ultrabirds run awesome... Other than running alittle more timing, I run mine the same as SMROCKET

my bird motors are cheap! bang for the buck category goes to the ultrabird motor! it's all we run in florida! i haven't seen a hand wound 19 turn in 2 years!

I would like to hear some thoughts on the Cobalt Motor Cans for 19 T. are they legal and are they better than the D5 ??

Also saw some builders that use the D6 can , would like some feedback on this also.


Thanks
Randy

RJM:Speaking of on-track results vs. dyno results...If you want to run the same brushes that have TQ'd and Won the last 2 ROAR Carpet Oval NAtionals in 19 turn, then you need to look no further than Putnam X Brushes.:cool:

For A mains, 10 out of 10 motors in 2003 were ours, and 9 out of 10 in 2004 were ours. Monti Panzica was the only guy not to run one of ours,(he ran a Team 1,) but he may have been using our X Brushes as well...not sure..:thumbsup:

Seeya at The Birds...
TP

Randy...

Shouldn't see a difference w/ the Cobalt can. Same can and magnets as the D5, just cosmetic changes.
Hope this helps...:thumbsup:
TP

Todd sent you an email.

Anybody used onr of these? If so what brush/spring combo are you using? Timing?

Anybody used onr of these? If so what brush/spring combo are you using? Timing?

Pretty much the same set-up a a handwound motor.Orions,Putnam X,good 4383's and probably the F brush should all work.Purple springs,Full timing.

If you have a hemi wrappeed arm they will be almost as good as a handwound arm.A cross wrapped arm not so competitive.

Thanks